Should Taiwan be seen as a real nation?

[Kurdanak]

For those who could use some more background knowledge:

[Bilal the Great]

Everybody wants to have their own country.

[WISD0MTREE]

I think if the US came to an independence agreement with Hawaii it would be great PR and then Hawaii could recognize Taiwan.

I think the ATF should pay your "peaceful" group a visit. I wonder what they would find. 

 

 

Ah. So you're basically going by who the UN recognizes, as your definition of sovereignty? 

This reminds me of the time when I visited the UN building in NYC. Their museum sucked. 

 

Everybody wants to have their own country.

This. 

[Kamehameha]

I think the ATF should pay your "peaceful" group a visit. I wonder what they would find.

It's funny how you support ATF against Hawaiians but if ATF knocks on white people's doors its a violation of the second amendment.

[Kamehameha]

Not if you have an automatic weapon. Or any illegal weapon for that matter.

Don't worry Hawaii has the toughest gun control laws in the US. Been that way since the illegal overthrow.

[Fox Fire]

Don't worry Hawaii has the toughest gun control laws in the US. Been that way since the illegal overthrow.

I find that pretty hard to believe. You got a source? (I mean a real one?)

[Alice Lune]

We're talking about the yuri-loving, japan-otakuish taiwan's independence, why are we talking about Hawaii now? Let's return to the topic of saving the yuri population, will you?

[Arthur James]

How? they are the same group of people but having different party.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Arthur James

[Kamehameha]

We're talking about the yuri-loving, japan-otakuish taiwan's independence, why are we talking about Hawaii now? Let's return to the topic of saving the yuri population, will you?

Good point, I think alot of the people on here are uncomfortable at the idea of an intelligent brown person or an independent Hawaii, so they don't let it go.

[Fox Fire]

We're talking about the yuri-loving, japan-otakuish taiwan's independence, why are we talking about Hawaii now? Let's return to the topic of saving the yuri population, will you?

Sorry. Every topic Tywin posts in becomes a debate about Hawaii.

 

Good point, I think alot of the people on here are uncomfortable at the idea of an intelligent brown person or an independent Hawaii, so they don't let it go.

See what I mean?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Fox Fire

[Hirohito]

  Little backstory of Taiwan; Taiwan is a side effect from the Chinese Civil War between the Nationalist and Communist Forces. In 1949 the Chinese Communist Forces won the mainland resulting the Nationalist Forces to retreat to Taiwan. From there, the Nationalist Forces defended some of Taiwan smaller islands against the Communist Forces, and with the American U.S Fleet to protect it's coastlines under the "mutual pact" agreement.

      The Modern People's Republic of China claims Taiwan as apart the PRC, while the Taiwan with new objectives strives to be real nation.

 

      I myself respect Taiwan as a real nation, your opinion?

 

Taiwan is the last hold out of real China.

[Natinator]

http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/taiwancountry.htm

 

This article explains why Taiwan is a country in every way other than International recognition, for fear of retribution/trouble from mainland China, as many have mentioned above.

[Rozalia]

Of course, and everyone should recognize it as such. If China wishes to keep this claim they have yet to collect in a long long time than they can take it by force and see how that works out. 

[Kamehameha]

Imagine the powerful statement of an independent Hawaii endorsing Taiwan. If the US can let go, so can China.

[Tali]

Imagine the powerful statement of an independent Hawaii endorsing Taiwan. If the US can let go, so can China.

Oh god. Go back where you came from. I swear you'll be able to bring up Hawaiians up in any discussion no matter how far off topic it is from the original topic.

[Lu Xun]

Theoretically, sure. But China has a bunch of missiles pointed at Taiwanese, and if they were to miss, there would be heavy collateral damage. There is also the problem of the fact that Taiwan is substantially invested into Chinese factories, so that Taiwan, if the Chinese were to pull the plug, would be out of a huge chunk of change.

 

Taiwan is going to get, in all likelihood, a pro-independence party president in 2016. It'll be interesting to see the choices they're aiming for; they can try to provoke China and hope that they can call China's bluff on an invasion, or they can continue to develop cross-strait ties through triangulation, since there is no one further to the independence section than they are.

 

It's actually one of the hotspots for a future world war; Taiwan can become independent, but it can't win a war due to the massive collateral damage involved. It only works out for Taiwan if the Chinese opt to slap sanctions, then come back later, which is doable provided their economy doesn't collapse.

[Nobeard]

Too many people in this thread don't understand the difference between a nation and a state.

 

Taiwan is not a nation, as Taiwanese people are of the same nation as mainlanders (i.e. vast majority Han Chinese), and with the status quo for the prior 70-odd years it is not a state either but rather a province of the Republic of China, which is the state.

[Kamehameha]

Too many people in this thread don't understand the difference between a nation and a state.

 

Taiwan is not a nation, as Taiwanese people are of the same nation as mainlanders (i.e. vast majority Han Chinese), and with the status quo for the prior 70-odd years it is not a state either but rather a province of the Republic of China, which is the state.

Hard to argue with this.

[Hagbard Celine]

Taiwan is nothing more than a political football.  It ceases to exist as an independent entity within hours of the withdrawal of US support.  

[LordRahl2]

Theoretically, sure. But China has a bunch of missiles pointed at Taiwanese, and if they were to miss, there would be heavy collateral damage.

What do you mean 'if they miss'?  You mean if they miss Taiwan?

[Lu Xun]

If they miss the intended military target. I think that's intentional, they have like a 100m CEP and the entire point is to get away with threatening to use terror-bombing.

 

@Nobeard, one big issue in Taiwan is the emergence of a separate Taiwanese identity. The idea is that Taiwanese, due to their own historical experiences (Colonization of Taiwan, Japanese occupation, KMT rule), as well as their different bloodlines than the Fujianese across the straits (while they tend to have Fujianese Y-chromosomes, Chinese men ended up marrying aboriginal women), they ought to be recognized as a separate people. After the introduction of free elections in Taiwan, the number of Taiwanese who identify as Taiwanese, as opposed to solely Chinese, has been increasing, and while there remains a plurality that identifies as both Chinese and Taiwanese, the numbers have been falling.

[LordRahl2]

The PLA is pretty up front that they will target population centers.

 

And I agree that Taiwan is or is rapidly becoming a Nation not simply a State.  Their identities have had both the time and a enough profoundly different experiences to diverge from the mainstream Han.

[Lu Xun]

In theory, they're targeting ROCA, ROCAF, and ROCN installations. Besides that, the RoC has missiles that can target stuff like the Three Gorges Dam. If there was an intentional and open attempt to use terror bombing to force concessions from Taiwan, it would justify an attempt by the RoC to attack the Three Gorges Dam, which would kill millions of people, and the Chinese government is on the record as considering a deliberate attack on the TGD as equivalent to a WMD first-use, clearing the way for Chinese nukes.

 

Taiwanification is... complicated. If you consider Taiwanese pop-culture and singers, you have to recall that when you want Mandarin Chinese pop music and TV, it's mostly associated with Taiwan in the Diaspora, because the Mainland's usually been terrible at producing non-shit artistic products. Essentially, what the Chinese are terrified of is schismaticism, since China is in fact composed of various regions, many with their unique languages and dialects, as well as local flavors. It's 1.3 billion people crammed into a country only slightly smaller than Europe.

 

They have basically achieved the European dream of unification, but only based on a certain level of despotism and uniformity. While the differences between, say, Fujianese and Guangdongnese are significantly less than that between the Spanish and the Portuguese, in recorded history there has been no real attempt at departure from the Chinese state as an individual nation state. Vietnam, Korea; both of those territories were previously under occupation but they had independent peoples to begin with. An independent Taiwan could potentially lead to Jiangnan (the Yangtze River Delta region around Shanghai) comprising its own territory, Fujian becoming independent as a dependency of Taiwan, Guangdong seceding, Dongbei (think Manchuria) becoming independent, and so on.

 

I don't think there's a fundamental contradiction between Taiwanese autonomy and Chinese desires for a single Chinese state, but it's ultimately up to the Taiwanese government in 2016 to decide what they want to achieve. They can try to push their luck and see if they can call the Chinese bluff on reunification, or they can also try to negotiate for unification under agreeable terms.