Should Taiwan be seen as a real nation?

[Franz Von Dietrich]

  Little backstory of Taiwan; Taiwan is a side effect from the Chinese Civil War between the Nationalist and Communist Forces. In 1949 the Chinese Communist Forces won the mainland resulting the Nationalist Forces to retreat to Taiwan. From there, the Nationalist Forces defended some of Taiwan smaller islands against the Communist Forces, and with the American U.S Fleet to protect it's coastlines under the "mutual pact" agreement.

      The Modern People's Republic of China claims Taiwan as apart the PRC, while the Taiwan with new objectives strives to be real nation.

 

      I myself respect Taiwan as a real nation, your opinion?

[Bollocks]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

 

I don't respect Taiwan as a real nation, and it's purely from a real-politik view of geo-politics. 

 

1. The number of sovereign nations who maintain formal diplomatic relationships with Taiwan is tiny.

 

 

Currently, the countries who maintain formal diplomatic relations with the ROC are:

•  Belize (1989)
•  Burkina Faso (1994)
•  Dominican Republic (1957)
•  El Salvador (1961)
•  Guatemala (1960)
•  Haiti (1956)
•  Honduras (1965)
•  Kiribati (2003)
•  Marshall Islands (1998)
•  Nauru (1980–2002, 2005)
•  Nicaragua (1990)

•  Palau (1999)
•  Panama (1954)
•  Paraguay (1957)
•  Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
•  Saint Lucia (1984–1997, 2007)
•  Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1981)
•  São Tomé and Príncipe (1997)
•  Solomon Islands (1983)
•  Swaziland (1968)
•  Tuvalu (1979)
•   Vatican City (The Holy See) (1942)

 

2. Taiwan can't declare independence without swift military intervention from Mainland China. And given the rising economic and military power of China, it's a threat they can most definitely enforce. 

 

 

 

PRC's condition on military intervention

Notwithstanding, the PRC government has issued triggers for an immediate war with Taiwan, most notably via its controversial Anti-Secession Law of 2005. These conditions are:

• if events occur leading to the "separation" of Taiwan from China in any name, or
• if a major event occurs which would lead to Taiwan's "separation" from China, or
• if all possibility of peaceful unification is lost.

 

Most world leaders know the most pragmatic solution is to bend to China's will. And in the grand scheme of things, Taiwan is a relatively small country and there's not much to gain to side with Taiwan rather than China. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Bollocks

[Kamehameha]

Seems like a parallel to north and south korea to me.

[Muhammad Ali Bas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

 

Most world leaders know the most pragmatic solution is to bend to China's will. And in the grand scheme of things, Taiwan is a relatively small country and there's not much to gain to side with Taiwan rather than China. 

TAIWAN IS SMALL? ITS ALMOST BIG AS CANADA, Wtf happens if China invaded Canada, USA will invade china back, SIMPLE AS THAT

[Magicboyd25]

Is Taiwan listed as a country in the Encyclopedia?  

 

I hear that thingy is always right

[Anneal]

TAIWAN IS SMALL? ITS ALMOST BIG AS CANADA, Wtf happens if China invaded Canada, USA will invade china back, SIMPLE AS THAT

Are you on drugs or something?

 

I'm from Taiwan myself, and while immediate separation would not bide well for Taiwan, neither is unification. I pretty much expect that Taiwan will continue to stay in that "semi-separate" status for some decades. U.S. can't place their military in Taiwan like they did with South Korea, simply because China cares less about that peninsula.

[Kamehameha]

I think if the US came to an independence agreement with Hawaii it would be great PR and then Hawaii could recognize Taiwan.

[Magicboyd25]

I think if the US came to an independence agreement with Hawaii it would be great PR and then Hawaii could recognize Taiwan.

 

You should fix that alliance tag you have in your profile

[Kamehameha]

Out of curiosity do people know about IC/OOC in this game or is there need for essays?

[MRBOOTY]

Yup, sadly far too many states are bending to the will of China on issues such as their brutal occupation of Tibet and their claims to Taiwan. It dosent have to be that way though.

 

Edit: me and fransisco franco bah agree? What?

Edited May 4, 2015 by MRBOOTY

[Odin]

!@#$ Red China >_>   o/  Taiwan (National China)

Edited May 4, 2015 by Wilhelm II

[Fox Fire]

  Little backstory of Taiwan; Taiwan is a side effect from the Chinese Civil War between the Nationalist and Communist Forces. In 1949 the Chinese Communist Forces won the mainland resulting the Nationalist Forces to retreat to Taiwan. From there, the Nationalist Forces defended some of Taiwan smaller islands against the Communist Forces, and with the American U.S Fleet to protect it's coastlines under the "mutual pact" agreement.

      The Modern People's Republic of China claims Taiwan as apart the PRC, while the Taiwan with new objectives strives to be real nation.

 

      I myself respect Taiwan as a real nation, your opinion?

Taiwan (Republic of China) is a sovereign state as defined by international law. Yes, it is a real nation.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

 

I don't respect Taiwan as a real nation, and it's purely from a real-politik view of geo-politics. 

 

1. The number of sovereign nations who maintain formal diplomatic relationships with Taiwan is tiny.

 

 

2. Taiwan can't declare independence without swift military intervention from Mainland China. And given the rising economic and military power of China, it's a threat they can most definitely enforce. 

 

 

Most world leaders know the most pragmatic solution is to bend to China's will. And in the grand scheme of things, Taiwan is a relatively small country and there's not much to gain to side with Taiwan rather than China. 

Except they maintain informal relations with nearly the whole world and have US military support.

[Anneal]

Taiwan (Republic of China) is a sovereign state as defined by international law. Yes, it is a real nation.

 

 

 

Except they maintain informal relations with nearly the whole world and have US military support.

US will retaliate if China hits Taiwan, but other than that they don't have any units stationed in Taiwan like in South Korea. Either way, Taiwan can easily be decimated by China before US can come to their rescue.

[Bollocks]

Taiwan (Republic of China) is a sovereign state as defined by international law. Yes, it is a real nation.

 

Taiwan has de facto sovereignty but not de jure sovereignty (it exists in reality but not in law). One needs both to be a fully sovereign nation.

 

For example, Palestine is recognized as having de jure sovereignty by many, but it lacks de facto sovereignty. 

 

 

 

Except they maintain informal relations with nearly the whole world 

 

So? The governor of California can have informal relations with the whole world, but it doesn't make California a sovereign country. 

 

 

 

and have US military support.

 

Meh, given how squeamish the US is regarding military intervention in the post-Iraq era this doesn't mean a whole lot right now. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Bollocks

[Fox Fire]

Ah. So you're basically going by who the UN recognizes, as your definition of sovereignty? 

The only reason anyone doesn't recognize ROC is because China refuses to have any relations with anyone who recognize them. Meanwhile, Taiwan has never been governed by PRC, while ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces. According to the international definition of a sovereign state, it is a sovereign state. You don't have to be a member of the UN to be a sovereign state.

 

I'm no big fan of the UN. They contradict themselves in favor of siding with world powers rather than actually enforcing their own purposes and principles.  

[LordRahl2]

US will retaliate if China hits Taiwan, but other than that they don't have any units stationed in Taiwan like in South Korea. Either way, Taiwan can easily be decimated by China before US can come to their rescue.

 

You have concluded this yourself or were you part of a defense design team that covered the issue?

[Bollocks]

Ah. So you're basically going by who the UN recognizes, as your definition of sovereignty? 

The only reason anyone doesn't recognize ROC is because China refuses to have any relations with anyone who recognize them. Meanwhile, Taiwan has never been governed by PRC, while ROC has its own constitution, independently elected president and armed forces. According to the international definition of a sovereign state, it is a sovereign state. You don't have to be a member of the UN to be a sovereign state.

 

I'm no big fan of the UN. They contradict themselves in favor of siding with world powers rather than actually enforcing their own purposes and principles.  

 

I'll first point out that this is a pretty semantic argument we're having, and it's a pretty frivolous argument we're having but I like frivolous arguments We both agree that Taiwan is autonomous, but where we differ is whether autonomy makes Taiwan a "real nation".  Lets break down the quoted definition for a sec:

 

 

 

In international law, a sovereign state is a nonphysical juridical entity that is represented by one centralized government that has sovereignty over a geographic area. International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states.^[1] It is also normally understood that a state is neither dependent on nor subject to any other power or state.^[2]

 

In international law, a sovereign state is a nonphysical juridical entity that is represented by one centralized government 

 

 

Yes, Taiwan does have a centralized government.

 

that has sovereignty over a geographic area.  

 

Only de facto sovereignty, not de jure sovereignty. 

 

International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, one government, 

 

Yes, Taiwan meets these criteria.

 

 and the capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states.^[1]

 

 

 

Mostly informal relations. Taiwan is incapable of even establishing a formal embassy in the U.S. and other Western countries. 

 

 

 

It is also normally understood that a state is neither dependent on nor subject to any other power or state.^[2]

 

Taiwan can't even officially declare independence without China shooting missiles at the island. When the U.S. colonies declared independence, they fought a war against Britain to obtain it. Taiwan hasn't done that yet, or worked out a diplomatic solution. 

 

The only reason anyone doesn't recognize ROC is because China refuses to have any relations with anyone who recognize them. 

 

 

 

And that really is the crux of my argument. When Nixon and Kissinger pulled the ultimate real-politik move by forming a tact anti-Soviet alliance with China, the price to be paid was throwing Taiwan under the bus. 

 

Ghana can strut its independence all it wants, Ethiopia can too, so can Sri Lanka. Taiwan can't, unless it's ready for war. Taiwan can't even get formal embassies with most countries. Those two are two major sticking points that prevents Taiwan from being a "real nation".

[Kamehameha]

I think if US wants to push China to recognize Taiwanese independence it should set the example with Hawaiian independence.

[Vincent]

Historically Taiwan is part of China and they split because of a civil war sometime back.

 

Do civil war happens between different nations?  The fact that the world recognises that Taiwan and China split due to a civil war also meant that the world recognises them as one single country before the war.

 

And while I do not condone reunification via force, I do not think Taiwan declaration of independence if they choose to is valid either. And do you know the legislative in Taiwan included areas located in mainland? I wonder if legislative assemblies in US or UK does include areas/seats representing areas in Europe or Africa for that matter?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Vincent

[Fox Fire]

I'll first point out that this is a pretty semantic argument we're having, and it's a pretty frivolous argument we're having but I like frivolous arguments We both agree that Taiwan is autonomous, but where we differ is whether autonomy makes Taiwan a "real nation".  Lets break down the quoted definition for a sec:

 

 

 

Yes, Taiwan does have a centralized government.

 

 

Only de facto sovereignty, not de jure sovereignty. 

 

 

Yes, Taiwan meets these criteria.

 

 

 

Mostly informal relations. Taiwan is incapable of even establishing a formal embassy in the U.S. and other Western countries. 

 

 

Taiwan can't even officially declare independence without China shooting missiles at the island. When the U.S. colonies declared independence, they fought a war against Britain to obtain it. Taiwan hasn't done that yet, or worked out a diplomatic solution. 

 

 

And that really is the crux of my argument. When Nixon and Kissinger pulled the ultimate real-politik move by forming a tact anti-Soviet alliance with China, the price to be paid was throwing Taiwan under the bus. 

 

Ghana can strut its independence all it wants, Ethiopia can too, so can Sri Lanka. Taiwan can't, unless it's ready for war. Taiwan can't even get formal embassies with most countries. Those two are two major sticking points that prevents Taiwan from being a "real nation".

So long as Taiwan is governing Taiwan, I'm going to consider them a real nation. If there is anything not real about any of this, it's Chinas control over Taiwan. Should China ever actually have control over the area they claim, then I'll recognize it as part of China. Until then, I see no valid reason to consider Taiwan part of PRC.

 

 

I think if US wants to push China to recognize Taiwanese independence it should set the example with Hawaiian independence.

So that China can annex you next?

[Avruch]

Some awesome posts in this thread. One guy says Taiwan is the size of Canada. Another says the U.S. has no military assets stationed near Taiwan (in fact, that area has about the largest concentration of overseas naval power in the world).

 

The reality is that Taiwan is self-governing, sovereign within its territory, and has trade and diplomatic (both formal and informal) relationships with other nations. There is one nation actively claiming otherwise, but merely insisting that something is so doesn't make it true. Taiwan isn't a strong nation; its position is precarious and vulnerable, which explains why the leaders of the Taiwanese government generally agree that reunification is a long-term goal and look to maintain positive relations with the PRC. Despite its weakness, however, Taiwan is still a nation.

[Alice Lune]

I say, Taiwan should become a full independent nation. They released 100% Senorita, has Patty Hou Pei Chen, Lin Chi Ling, Joe Chen and Vivian Hsu. They also have the highest percentage of openly yuri behaviour in Asia after Japan. Having all those censored by Chinese censorship board would be a damned shame. I support military intervention in giving Taiwan a full independence and for it to be recognized as a legitimate sovereign nation.

[LordRahl2]

We will call it the Yuri war!!

 

Any island state the size of Canada deserves all our battleships!

[Fox Fire]

[Odin]

I say, Taiwan should become a full independent nation. They released 100% Senorita, has Patty Hou Pei Chen, Lin Chi Ling, Joe Chen and Vivian Hsu. They also have the highest percentage of openly yuri behaviour in Asia after Japan. Having all those censored by Chinese censorship board would be a damned shame. I support military intervention in giving Taiwan a full independence and for it to be recognized as a legitimate sovereign nation.

 

+ give continental china back to Taiwan