PigInZen Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 We're not raiders.  Some of our members raid, but our alliance isn't dedicated to raiding. Quote Priest of Dio   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) The other thing is that our upper tier is bigger than theirs. I started the war several hundred score above the highest nations in Mensa HQ. Edited April 15, 2015 by Hereno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 If those nations are active then why make the decision to get your alliance rolled when Pfeiffer offered to send it directly to them? I don't really care whether or not you'd use it for the intended purposes. But you asked for money, they offered to give them their money back and you declared on them, and I find that hilarious. I had literally nothing to do with any of that, nor am I satisfied with how it was handled. However, assuming I was handling the situation, I would have told them the same thing Hereno did: Send it to the alliance bank. It's not Mensas job to worry about how we run our alliance and Herenos demands were perfectly reasonable by any reasonable persons standards, as I've said before... Quote _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 It's also not Mensa's job to pay it back either, but it was under consideration. 2 1 Quote Warrior of Dio  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grillick Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 It's also not Mensa's job to pay it back either, but it was under consideration. MensaHQ may not have an obligation to pay reps for affronts on another alliance's sovereignty, but if the terms of the reps they offered were deliberately calculated to be impossible to accept (demanding a PM from a nation that you believe to be inactive), they can't then use their "willingness to pay reps" to justify their current position. The reps offered by Pfeiffer were not offered in good faith, because Pfeiffer believed that the terms could not possibly be complied with. 4 Quote "It's hard to be a team player when you're omnipotent." - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) That is pure speculation on Pfeiffer's intentions.  Also, it was not impossible for 2 of the 3 targets that were raided as they had just recently logged on.  Only 1 of the 3 targets remains inactive to this day. Edited April 15, 2015 by Buorhann 1 1 1 Quote Warrior of Dio  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grillick Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 That is pure speculation on Pfeiffer's intentions. Â Also, it was not impossible for 2 of the 3 targets that were raided as they had just recently logged on. Â Only 1 of the 3 targets remains inactive to this day. Speculation is not the same as conjecture. Â I've drawn conclusions based on Pfeiffer's own statements (and those of his supporters). His proposal was unreasonable from the outset, even if the nations were active. The fact that he knew (and has stated that he knew) that at least one of them was inactive makes it even more wrongheaded. 2 Quote "It's hard to be a team player when you're omnipotent." - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 And some folks outside of Mensa viewed it as being fair considering the situation.  Pfeiffer has ordered to pay reps back to other nations that talk to him directly in the past, quite a few times actually.  I think one or two even posted in one of these threads to confirm it too ( These threads are too clustered ).  So it's not far-fetched to consider that Pfeiffer was being legitimate with his claim. 1 1 1 Quote Warrior of Dio  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Had I taken a couple days we probably could have easily smacked them hard, but that's what happens when you have to deal with dumbasses while high. Well I don't blame anyone for leaving SI now, I was wondering why the hell you attacked without being ready to actually fight. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellhound Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I had literally nothing to do with any of that, nor am I satisfied with how it was handled. However, assuming I was handling the situation, I would have told them the same thing Hereno did: Send it to the alliance bank. It's not Mensas job to worry about how we run our alliance and Herenos demands were perfectly reasonable by any reasonable persons standards, as I've said before... I'm not really saying you guys were in the wrong. But everyone's trying to paint Mensa as the bad guys here, this could have been handled, both of you were within your rights to do what you did. There doesn't HAVE to be a bad guy for every single war. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemal Ergenekon Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Mensa HQ, being raiders  topkek. Less than half of our members had military score above 10% a week or two ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeeeet Ronny D Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Why does Mensa have to pay reps at all? They are significantly stronger than SI, and unless SI is willing to go to war over it, Mensa can easily tell any of the little alliances it raids to go pound sand.  Negotiations generally are conducted between equal parties, and in this case, like with many of the little alliances that are out there, they have no ground to stand on in terms of negotiations with an alliance the size of Mensa. If they don't like it, they either need to grow stronger, or make allies with stronger alliances that can actually force Mensa to negotiate. I say good on Mensa for even humoring Herano, it was more than they needed to do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grillick Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Why does Mensa have to pay reps at all? They are significantly stronger than SI, and unless SI is willing to go to war over it, Mensa can easily tell any of the little alliances it raids to go pound sand.  Negotiations generally are conducted between equal parties, and in this case, like with many of the little alliances that are out there, they have no ground to stand on in terms of negotiations with an alliance the size of Mensa. If they don't like it, they either need to grow stronger, or make allies with stronger alliances that can actually force Mensa to negotiate. I say good on Mensa for even humoring Herano, it was more than they needed to do. I disagree. Shame on MensaHQ for pretending to humor Hereno. While it's true they had no obligation to discuss reps at all, that's not the issue. Once they agreed to discuss reps, they had an obligation to do so in good faith. And making an offer they know (or should know) could not be accepted, especially an offer that requires individual members nations to conduct their own negotiations with a foreign leader, is not negotiating in good faith.  They would be on firmer ground if they had simply refused to pay reps at all. 2 Quote "It's hard to be a team player when you're omnipotent." - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigInZen Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 This thread delivers.  Quote Priest of Dio   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Why could the offer not be accepted? Any of those nations hit by the raiders could've spoken to Pfeiffer and got their money back. This wasn't a 'group refund' deal, this was a 'Hey, send them to me when they log on'.  Hereno didn't ask for the alliance bank loss back, he asked for the personal money those nations lost. Pfeiffer didn't like that.  You claim to have read all of it, but you're being pretty dense here Grillick. Claiming how it's unfair and that Pfeiffer knew it wouldn't be accepted. This wasn't a impossible claim. They just didn't even attempt to take the deal to see the true intentions. What harm could be done if any of those nations messaged Pfeiffer about it as he requested? 1 1 1 Quote Warrior of Dio  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigInZen Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Why could the offer not be accepted? Any of those nations hit by the raiders could've spoken to Pfeiffer and got their money back. This wasn't a 'group refund' deal, this was a 'Hey, send them to me when they log on'.  Hereno didn't ask for the alliance bank loss back, he asked for the personal money those nations lost. Pfeiffer didn't like that.  You claim to have read all of it, but you're being pretty dense here Grillick. Claiming how it's unfair and that Pfeiffer knew it wouldn't be accepted. This wasn't a impossible claim. They just didn't even attempt to take the deal to see the true intentions. What harm could be done if any of those nations messaged Pfeiffer about it as he requested?  Dude, Elderon, I think any further attempts at reasoning are lost in a sea of illogic. Quote Priest of Dio   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Why could the offer not be accepted? Any of those nations hit by the raiders could've spoken to Pfeiffer and got their money back. This wasn't a 'group refund' deal, this was a 'Hey, send them to me when they log on'.  Hereno didn't ask for the alliance bank loss back, he asked for the personal money those nations lost. Pfeiffer didn't like that.  You claim to have read all of it, but you're being pretty dense here Grillick. Claiming how it's unfair and that Pfeiffer knew it wouldn't be accepted. This wasn't a impossible claim. They just didn't even attempt to take the deal to see the true intentions. What harm could be done if any of those nations messaged Pfeiffer about it as he requested?  You are missing one point here Hippo dude thats the fact that "LEADERS" in Orbis are the ones who handle negotiations and its part of the way alliances run! for example in the alliance I am in a member that gets raided will come and tell us they are being raided and a leader in our alliance will assume the role of negotiation with the raiders. not all people know how to handle foreign leaders and to have them do everything themselves completely avoids the point of having leaders in an alliance.  But thats just my opinion, now I continue my popcorn eating :popcorn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeiffer Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 There was no negotiating to be done by them, simply a single message saying they wanted the agreed upon reparations. Duh. Quote ☾☆Chairman Emeritus of Mensa HQ ☾☆"It's not about the actual fish, themselves. Fish are not important in this context. It's about fish-ing, the act of fishing itself." -Jack O'Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desertfalcon Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm going to role play as a raided member of another alliance here.  *Logs on* *Sees nation was attacked* *Checks Inbox* *Reads letter from alliance leader telling them to message other alliance leader for reps* *Goes to the other alliance's leader (you could include a link to make this easy* *Hits the send message button* * Types* "Hey, some of your guys raided me and I was told to message you in order to receive reparations." *Hits send* *Waits as the money is put back into his account*  /end role play  Boom, that wasn't really jumping through hoops now was it? Quote º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ ¨°º¤ø„¸ GOD EMPEROR DIO BRANDO¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ DIO BRANDO GOD EMPEROR¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TellUrGrlThx Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Mensa is not a raiding alliance. I have never raided ever. I have only ever declared on 3 people in my lifetime all which were the 3 I fought in this war. (check my war log if you really care to prove it) I'm also not the only one in my alliance that has never raided many of our top tier never have.  Second, there was never an intention to not pay reparations. The fact you assumed this without even knowing us Grillick is very rude. We have paid reparations multiple times even once to SI early on before we were in the top 20. We won't lie about the fact some of our members and past members have been complete dumbasses about who they attack but what alliance with 50+ members doesn't face this issue?  Third, Pfeiffer is a dick we should all know this. He's active on IRC and is usually on the Thursday night radio show. If you are somewhat active like you should be as an alliance leader then you would know this. Also I know we have stated this before but if you have any issues with Mensa such as raiding reps or etc then direct them to Vanek or myself. We will gladly help you out.  /end rant  This war is basically over now and we were offering a way out of the war 2 turns after it started for the members of SI. We intentionally made the peace agreement fair to SI's members with no intentions of continuing any damage towards their alliance. Quote ☾☆Priest of Dio º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ GOD EMPEROR DIO BRANDO¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ DIO BRANDO GOD EMPEROR¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Fire Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I'm going to role play as a raided member of another alliance here.  *Logs on* *Sees nation was attacked* *Checks Inbox* *Reads letter from alliance leader telling them to message other alliance leader for reps* *Goes to the other alliance's leader (you could include a link to make this easy* *Hits the send message button* * Types* "Hey, some of your guys raided me and I was told to message you in order to receive reparations." *Hits send* *Waits as the money is put back into his account*  /end role play  Boom, that wasn't really jumping through hoops now was it? Neither was sending it to bank.... Quote _________________________________________________________________ <Jroc> I heard \ is an anagram of cocaine<\> I can't be rearranged into a line, I already am a line. --Foxburo Wiki-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desertfalcon Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Neither was sending it to bank....  You're right it wouldn't be jumping through hoops to send it to the bank. However that wasn't the reason we didn't do it so that's irrelevant. Quote º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ ¨°º¤ø„¸ GOD EMPEROR DIO BRANDO¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ DIO BRANDO GOD EMPEROR¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grillick Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The fact you assumed this without even knowing us Grillick is very rude. 1) I am very rude - ask anybody. 2) I did not assume you had no intention of paying reparations. I concluded that you had no intention of paying reparations based on the evidence that was available. 3) I know you well enough to draw conclusions based on your past and present behavior to draw inferences about your motivations.  Let's break it down: Hereno, in response to concerns from his membership that your members have been unjustifiably raiding them, contacts your leader to seek redress. Your leader responds that the members who were raided were inactive, specifically noting that one of them had been inactive for 8 days, but says that if they message him, he'll have compensation paid directly to them.  This demonstrates a lack of willingness to pay reparations in two ways: First, alliance leaders who have any respect for alliance sovereignty should be conducting their negotiations through alliance leaders - expecting the individual nations to reach out to you is an indication that you don't respect the alliance with which you are dealing, which is an indication that you don't intend to treat them as a legitimate alliance (by paying reparations); second, demanding activity from a player the leader believes is inactive indicates that the leader is offering to take the action without an intention to do so - he believes the action will never need to be taken because he has imposed a condition precedent that he believes will never be met.  This conclusion lines up with the past behavior of your alliance. As a group, you have regularly demonstrated a complete lack of respect for political norms in Orbis. In addition, it lines up with your current defense of your alliance's behavior. You've said yourself that Pfeiffer is an !@#$. Is it so hard to believe that he may have been disingenuously offering reparations without the intention of following through? 4 Quote "It's hard to be a team player when you're omnipotent." - Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avruch Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Are people still posting in this thread?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George W. Bush Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Are people still posting in this thread?? Apparently 2 Quote You're no longer protecting the II? We have still teamed with II and TAC (and others) to rival The Covenants. This is getting complex. #FA_Problems Big problems for TSG. Really, not kidding. If Casey and Cyradis are King and Queen does that mean they're married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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