Rose vs Camelot Debate: Epi & Gorge Showdown

[Kevanovia]

Gorge vs Epi for a special Debate regarding the recent Camelot NAP-break Conflict. Join us at The Media June 19th @ 8PM EST.

The Media's Discord Server

Direct Link To Event

 

This wonderful and original idea was born from the Camelot member, Firwof.

Edited June 14 by Kevanovia

[EpimetheusTalks]

On 6/8/2025 at 9:54 AM, EpimetheusTalks said:

We've offered to debate them several times, including at the encouragement of Eclipse and House Stark, and so far they have ignored us. If they want to take up the offer all they need to do is message me and we can organize a time.

If we were to hold the debate I would want to stream it, so the actual discussion would take place in a private server.

We'd be fine with Thalmor or Lysander moderating and giving a shout out to the news server where the link would be shared first. We don't really mind who Rose wants to represent them or how many there are so long as they're polite. I'm not sure Firwof would be a representative of ours since he's not a long term member or government. He could speak on behalf of himself as an individual if people are okay with that but if he or others veer into OOC we would ask for that to be quickly silenced by the moderators.

If other relevant diplomats want to join the conversation we'd be fine with that so long as they state their treaties up front and whether their alliance has supported the convention or not. This is so that new and future players can clearly delineate between the sides.

I think this would be a really cool community event perhaps ending with a poll on who won. I've no illusions that our opponents outnumber us but that does not diminish the entertainment value.

Before I forget, @Firwof Kromwellstop talking shit lmao.

These were the terms we discussed. I purposefully made a lot of concessions in exchange for being able to stream the event. You didn't object to them or raise issue with it being streamed when we discussed the terms in private and I fit my schedule around yours.

You should have asked me about changing the terms before making a forum post. In light of this, I'll probably do an independent stream / QnA after your event and respond to any arguments made. Now there'll be two events instead of 1, very cool ^_^.

I'm looking forward to attending your event like the rest of the audience.

Edited June 14 by EpimetheusTalks
Autocorrect

[Kevanovia]

48 minutes ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

These were the terms we discussed. I purposefully made a lot of concessions in exchange for being able to stream the event. You didn't object to them or raise issue with it being streamed when we discussed the terms in private and I fit my schedule around yours.

You should have asked me about changing the terms before making a forum post. In light of this, I'll probably do an independent stream / QnA after your event and respond to any arguments made. Now there'll be two events instead of 1, very cool ^_^.

I'm looking forward to attending your event like the rest of the audience.

.....?

What are you talking about? Our entire 'exchange' consisted of 'Rose vs Cam debate? Would this time work?" That's it lol So unsure as to where you're pulling the rest of 'discussed the terms in private' - you agreed to it on RON. After you agreed to it on RON the only question I asked in private regarding the debate prior to setting this up was "What time do you want to debate with Rose?" & your answer was "I'm flexible".

Feel free to livestream whatever lol no one is preventing you from doing that in this event - but if you're using this as a way to back out of your debate with Rose, that's rough buddy. As Lord Paramount of Camelot, I am quite disappointed with our King.

[L3X]

Why a private server though? 

[Firwof Kromwell]

On 6/7/2025 at 2:06 PM, Firwof Kromwell said:

Can't be a lack of evidence either when further evidence can easily be searched like Google via the forums for shit like this from Rose. Hell, look at the wars from this yr against Rose for backrooming. Plus, do yall see anyone else scrambling to gather ss & make videos for pnw like him? oh just mainly Thalmor when he feels like it? I challenge the cast around Thalmor Radio show to gather such evidence & refute live w/ us from Cam. If so, I'll definitely regress to take all the shittalk, ignorance, & down votes aka swallow my pride. Until then, stay mad, seeth, & cope harder my friends!!

Just a reminder that people love to steal to further control ideas/intel/rss for their self praise. Especially to get a dead server like VGM where morf radio is held to cast again, tis a pity. Yall are welcome for the motivation on the otherwise 😉!!

[Alzruntas]

But whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

 

in a private server lol???

[Kevanovia]

56 minutes ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

Just a reminder that people love to steal to further control ideas/intel/rss for their self praise. Especially to get a dead server like VGM where morf radio is held to cast again, tis a pity. Yall are welcome for the motivation on the otherwise 😉!!

There ya go big shooter, I edited the OP

[Rageproject]

Why would one party participating in the debate be allowed to control the platform? 🤦🏻‍♂️

[EpimetheusTalks]

5 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

.....?

What are you talking about? Our entire 'exchange' consisted of 'Rose vs Cam debate? Would this time work?" That's it lol So unsure as to where you're pulling the rest of 'discussed the terms in private' - you agreed to it on RON. After you agreed to it on RON the only question I asked in private regarding the debate prior to setting this up was "What time do you want to debate with Rose?" & your answer was "I'm flexible".

Feel free to livestream whatever lol no one is preventing you from doing that in this event - but if you're using this as a way to back out of your debate with Rose, that's rough buddy. As Lord Paramount of Camelot, I am quite disappointed with our King.

If you wanted to host it on The Media server you could have mentioned it in private and tried to convince me. Blindsiding me with the removal of the one thing I wanted out of this isn't acting in good faith. Neither is trying to pressure us. I messaged you in private against before replying in this thread and my concerns were brushed aside.

I'll still address all of George's points in my stream and there'll be an open Q&A for those interested. If George wants to participate in that too he can.

[J Kell]

19 hours ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

If you wanted to host it on The Media server you could have mentioned it in private and tried to convince me. Blindsiding me with the removal of the one thing I wanted out of this isn't acting in good faith. Neither is trying to pressure us. I messaged you in private against before replying in this thread and my concerns were brushed aside.

I'll still address all of George's points in my stream and there'll be an open Q&A for those interested. If George wants to participate in that too he can.

Gosh, you're just as whinny as you were 5 years ago. Your character development doesn't exist! I knew Hollywood couldn't write good fedora wearing characters anymore.

[Kevanovia]

21 hours ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

If you wanted to host it on The Media server you could have mentioned it in private and tried to convince me. Blindsiding me with the removal of the one thing I wanted out of this isn't acting in good faith. Neither is trying to pressure us. I messaged you in private against before replying in this thread and my concerns were brushed aside.

I'll still address all of George's points in my stream and there'll be an open Q&A for those interested. If George wants to participate in that too he can.

All of the debates/VC events I partake on are typically done in The Media (it's not like I'm new in this space...I literally have an in-game achievement for it), not really something that needs clarification. 

"Blindsiding me with the removal of the one thing I wanted out of this isn't acting in good faith" - what? The one thing you wanted was to not be in a live VC debate while being in a live VC debate? Again, you're just throwing out random lines that have nothing to do with anything. You are free to livestream while you participate in the debate. According to you after the fact, you were planning on doing that anyway in your own private server. Literally no difference outside of you having the capabilities of muting the moderator as well as your debate opponent.

"I messaged you in private against before replying in this thread and my concerns were brushed aside." - Yeah and my response was "why can't you debate on Media and livestream?", which you never answered. Instead of answering, you came to the forums and made your post lol.

Unsure if your 'not acting in good faith' comment is directed towards me or a self-reflection?

[EpimetheusTalks]

10 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

All of the debates/VC events I partake on are typically done in The Media (it's not like I'm new in this space...I literally have an in-game achievement for it), not really something that needs clarification. 

"Blindsiding me with the removal of the one thing I wanted out of this isn't acting in good faith" - what? The one thing you wanted was to not be in a live VC debate while being in a live VC debate? Again, you're just throwing out random lines that have nothing to do with anything. You are free to livestream while you participate in the debate. According to you after the fact, you were planning on doing that anyway in your own private server. Literally no difference outside of you having the capabilities of muting the moderator as well as your debate opponent.

"I messaged you in private against before replying in this thread and my concerns were brushed aside." - Yeah and my response was "why can't you debate on Media and livestream?", which you never answered. Instead of answering, you came to the forums and made your post lol.

Unsure if your 'not acting in good faith' comment is directed towards me or a self-reflection?

"I think it would generate more content and be longer lasting if I streamed it. The audience for the video will be non-existent if you push them all to discord. I get that you want to promote your news server but I have my own platform I prefer to operate on and I'd rather not take sides in the news wars."

I respect your choice to centralize your events on The Media's server. However, I think you also need to respect my choice to centralize my events on my Youtube channel. I was led to believe that it would be exclusively on my platform with just a shoutout for the news server that supplied a moderator. That is a concession to me which is why I offered Rose a bunch of concessions in exchange such as picking the time, choosing the moderator, sending as many ppl as they want, and letting diplomats from other alliances appear as guests if they stated which side they were on up front.

I trusted Rose to act responsibly on stream and to use the advantages they were given with grace. I expected the same trust to be placed in me. I've worked with Rose on several videos now and I've even avoided publishing some at their request. When Rose withdrew from the first debate proposed by Eclipse we didn't give them much grief over it and we expected to be treated with the same decency.

I feel like we're being held to a higher standard and being asked to make sacrifices that other people aren't willing to make. I'm not going to do that.

Tl;dr You're inviting me and I gave you a condition and you ignored it. Rose has refused to participate in debates before for much more trivial reasons so UNO REVERSE.

[Nelson]

It's unreasonable to get exclusive stream rights to a private debate.

If it's a public debate where anyone can listen in independently, on a Discord "Stage" channel, then it's perfectly reasonable to have exclusive stream rights on YouTube, Twitch, or outside platforms.

However, in the first case, the streamer (Epi) could silence, or even adjust the volume on his side, to speak over everyone else at any point and the public audience would have no other choice but to listen to only Epi's perspective in that moment, until he decides to unmute or re-raise the volumes. This effectively removes the moderators ability to moderate for anyone who is not inside of that VC.

It's probably best to agree on a moderator (who would have exclusive muting rights) that both sides think will be fair to each side. The discord server it's held on doesn't matter. As long as it's public for anyone to join and listen independently.

Edited June 16 by Nelson

[EpimetheusTalks]

1 hour ago, Nelson said:

It's unreasonable to get exclusive stream rights to a private debate.

If it's a public debate where anyone can listen in independently, on a Discord "Stage" channel, then it's perfectly reasonable to have exclusive stream rights on YouTube, Twitch, or outside platforms.

However, in the first case, the streamer (Epi) could silence, or even adjust the volume on his side, to speak over everyone else at any point and the public audience would have no other choice but to listen to only Epi's perspective in that moment, until he decides to unmute or re-raise the volumes. This effectively removes the moderators ability to moderate for anyone who is not inside of that VC.

It's probably best to agree on a moderator (who would have exclusive muting rights) that both sides think will be fair to each side. The discord server it's held on doesn't matter. As long as it's public for anyone to join and listen independently.

It's awesome that you've engaged with the topic and are offering alternatives. It was that spirit which got us close to holding the debate. However, I think you also inadvertently highlighted why this isn't going to happen. They don't trust me and that was why they withdrew from the first debate. When we discussed the terms for the second debate I wanted both sides to make concessions, place trust in each other, and they were not willing to do that.

I don't want to spend an hour talking to people that assume worst of me, in a server filled with people hostile to me, and not get any views out of it. The 'trust argument' goes both ways. You're welcome to try and break that argument down because if you succeed you delegitimize Rose's initial reason for withdrawal which I'd find immensely entertaining tbh. If your argument is simply that they're trustworthy and I'm not then your argument will fall on deaf ears.

I genuinely wish them the best with their event. I hope it's interesting, fun, and in good spirit. Maybe down the road they'll have more trust in us and we can hold a debate but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

PS: This will probably be my last message on the subject since I said everything I wanted to say in the post before this and wrapped up loose ends here.

Edited June 16 by EpimetheusTalks

[Conald Petersen]

These fuzzy cuzzies should just put this cuuuuuute little debate on Amazon Prime like Thursday Night Football. GROSSSSSS!

[Namukara]

Why not just hold it on a news server with one of the established news people people trust to run a news show acting as moderator? Could even have a mutually agreeable panel asking questions from different parts of the community. People like to be able to engage with this sort of thing and the news servers already have a large amount of members. For maximum engagement, put it there.

[Rageproject]

2 hours ago, Namukara said:

Why not just hold it on a news server with one of the established news people people trust to run a news show acting as moderator? Could even have a mutually agreeable panel asking questions from different parts of the community. People like to be able to engage with this sort of thing and the news servers already have a large amount of members. For maximum engagement, put it there.

That was what Kev was doing… But Epi feels the need to control this from his side, which is completely defeating the purpose of having a debate if he’s going to try to get “home field advantage” 

[Kevanovia]

12 hours ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

"I think it would generate more content and be longer lasting if I streamed it. The audience for the video will be non-existent if you push them all to discord. I get that you want to promote your news server but I have my own platform I prefer to operate on and I'd rather not take sides in the news wars."

I respect your choice to centralize your events on The Media's server. However, I think you also need to respect my choice to centralize my events on my Youtube channel. I was led to believe that it would be exclusively on my platform with just a shoutout for the news server that supplied a moderator. That is a concession to me which is why I offered Rose a bunch of concessions in exchange such as picking the time, choosing the moderator, sending as many ppl as they want, and letting diplomats from other alliances appear as guests if they stated which side they were on up front.

I trusted Rose to act responsibly on stream and to use the advantages they were given with grace. I expected the same trust to be placed in me. I've worked with Rose on several videos now and I've even avoided publishing some at their request. When Rose withdrew from the first debate proposed by Eclipse we didn't give them much grief over it and we expected to be treated with the same decency.

I feel like we're being held to a higher standard and being asked to make sacrifices that other people aren't willing to make. I'm not going to do that.

Tl;dr You're inviting me and I gave you a condition and you ignored it. Rose has refused to participate in debates before for much more trivial reasons so UNO REVERSE.

Again (as pointed out several times), you can do the event on your Youtube channel and still have the ability to debate on another server. 

This whole 'concession' narrative is completely made-up as there were no concessions stated or made from your end, only that you were willing to debate Rose. I am the one that asked you what time you could debate, you said you were flexible (even then, I still asked if a specific time would work for you..which you said yes) - so to say you made a concession to that is absolute rubbish and misleading. (I would have been willing to change the time) 

If anyone was making concessions, it was me lol. George originally said no, but conceded if I got JKell to agree to make a song about you (which I was against..you are welcome in advance...but I introduced George to him in order to make the debate work...) - so that was a concession. I had to make sure the timeframe worked for you and George - which I cleared with you....that was a concession (my time is also valuable). You actually made 0 concessions...literally 0. You made up " I offered Rose a bunch of concessions in exchange such as picking the time, choosing the moderator, sending as many ppl as they want, and letting diplomats from other alliances appear as guests if they stated which side they were on up front." - none of that is true/none of it was taken up by Rose.

...this all comes down to a simple line that you keep trying to duck/dive/weave on...you could stream while doing the debate. lol

[EpimetheusTalks]

10 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

Again (as pointed out several times), you can do the event on your Youtube channel and still have the ability to debate on another server. 

This whole 'concession' narrative is completely made-up as there were no concessions stated or made from your end, only that you were willing to debate Rose. I am the one that asked you what time you could debate, you said you were flexible (even then, I still asked if a specific time would work for you..which you said yes) - so to say you made a concession to that is absolute rubbish and misleading. (I would have been willing to change the time) 

If anyone was making concessions, it was me lol. George originally said no, but conceded if I got JKell to agree to make a song about you (which I was against..you are welcome in advance...but I introduced George to him in order to make the debate work...) - so that was a concession. I had to make sure the timeframe worked for you and George - which I cleared with you....that was a concession (my time is also valuable). You actually made 0 concessions...literally 0. You made up " I offered Rose a bunch of concessions in exchange such as picking the time, choosing the moderator, sending as many ppl as they want, and letting diplomats from other alliances appear as guests if they stated which side they were on up front." - none of that is true/none of it was taken up by Rose.

...this all comes down to a simple line that you keep trying to duck/dive/weave on...you could stream while doing the debate. lol

Over the past 24 hours another news server tried to host the debate and Rose refused. I think it's clear at his point that both sides have reservations and we are at an impasse.

I disagree with your arguments. I set the terms for the debate in my original post and if you wanted to change any of them you should have discussed it with me before making an announcement. It's unfair to disregard my thoughts and try to pressure me into something I didn't agree to. It would have cost you nothing to explain your plan before proceeding with it. This is a mess that could have been easily avoided.

[Rageproject]

11 hours ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

Over the past 24 hours another news server tried to host the debate and Rose refused. I think it's clear at his point that both sides have reservations and we are at an impasse.

Did you just use the classic media example where some reporter calls to ask for an interview on short notice and the person they ask isn’t available to comment? So it gets used against them? 😂

(I’m loving this whole saga, honestly.)

[AwesomeNova]

From what I'm gathering, the debate isn't happening because Epi wanted exclusive streaming rights to said debate on a PRIVATE server. There's no point in having a debate in the first place if one side has full control on how people view it.

Also, I do not care about what Epi has to say about this. No reasonable person would want a debate with the terms outlined by him, and I'm against any debate like that on principle. Either everyone can view it from any source or no one can, no in between.

[Sir Scarfalot]

On 6/16/2025 at 10:01 AM, EpimetheusTalks said:

It's awesome that you've engaged with the topic and are offering alternatives. It was that spirit which got us close to holding the debate. However, I think you also inadvertently highlighted why this isn't going to happen. They don't trust me and that was why they withdrew from the first debate. When we discussed the terms for the second debate I wanted both sides to make concessions, place trust in each other, and they were not willing to do that.

I don't want to spend an hour talking to people that assume worst of me, in a server filled with people hostile to me, and not get any views out of it. The 'trust argument' goes both ways. You're welcome to try and break that argument down because if you succeed you delegitimize Rose's initial reason for withdrawal which I'd find immensely entertaining tbh. If your argument is simply that they're trustworthy and I'm not then your argument will fall on deaf ears.

I genuinely wish them the best with their event. I hope it's interesting, fun, and in good spirit. Maybe down the road they'll have more trust in us and we can hold a debate but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

PS: This will probably be my last message on the subject since I said everything I wanted to say in the post before this and wrapped up loose ends here.

I seriously don't see what your problem is. If you want to put it on Youtube then you can do that with or without being the moderator of the debate. It's hardly unfair to ask that the moderation of the debate be neutral to both parties. You're the one making it hostile to yourself by insisting on unreasonable terms in your favor.

These shenanigans are why people are 'hostile to you', you know. You had a shot at defending your actions, but now you're undermining your own arguments by being petty.

[Namukara]

Is it truly impossible to stream from another discord server onto Epi's youtube channel? One could even create a private server, give Epi admin rights to log into whatever bot is required to link the two, remove said admin rights from Epi to prevent any form of debate manipulation from use of admin powers and then open up the server to anybody interested. It's more of a faff but if someone can tell me how it's done I wouldn't mind giving it a go.

Edited June 18 by Namukara
why is forum adding my last post to my new one...

[Rageproject]

2 hours ago, Namukara said:

Is it truly impossible to stream from another discord server onto Epi's youtube channel? One could even create a private server, give Epi admin rights to log into whatever bot is required to link the two, remove said admin rights from Epi to prevent any form of debate manipulation from use of admin powers and then open up the server to anybody interested. It's more of a faff but if someone can tell me how it's done I wouldn't mind giving it a go.

Epi’s ability to stream his own device on YouTube has nothing to do with someone else (the moderator) controlling the Debate Audio platform. 

[Firwof Kromwell]

20 hours ago, Rageproject said:

Epi’s ability to stream his own device on YouTube has nothing to do with someone else (the moderator) controlling the Debate Audio platform. 

It does matter when it depends on what happens to the video file contents between streaming and publishment 

Edited June 19 by Firwof Kromwell