Camelot of the Caribbean: Pirates Pay No Debts

[EpimetheusTalks]

Camelot of the Caribbean

Pirates Pay No Debts

Everyone has been asking us why we 'broke a NAP' and 'teamed up with Arrgh'. This is why:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1axa97C8BSFDRmmPV339TBnJoQGx-LFu0YXDAc2__B7o/edit?usp=sharing

I was a bit reluctant to make this after learning that Hatebi was retiring yesterday. It's unbecoming to steal her spotlight during her last hurrah. However, after thinking about it, I think it makes the war better. If I were in her shoes I'd want the most compelling story, the biggest damages, and the highest stakes. So from all of the people in Camelot, including myself, you've done an excellent job as admiral (even when we were enemies) and we wish you all the best when you find your beloved horizon as all great pirates should.

Tl;dr

• Camelot accepts White Peace with Myrmidons
• Camelot withdraws from the Rising Tides Bloc
• Camelot notifies the public of its formal withdrawal from a Non-Aggression-Pact over two weeks ago
• Camelot announces its participation in a nuke auction
• Camelot Recognizes Hostilities with Peace Mode Coalition and their private military contractors.

We were shackled by debt and lies but now we're free to sail the seven seas.

Drink up me hearties! Yo ho!

Edited June 2 by EpimetheusTalks

[Conald Petersen]

You know its bad when you have to vote yes on your own poll

Edited May 28 by Conald Petersen
in->on, grammar is a lie cuz

[SleepingNinja]

So question here ; could you not have avoided this issue if you had just said no to initially helping Rose when you attacked TI? Or just withdrawn and not gotten involved or was that because Penta forced you to join "our side" (you weren't coordinating with us, that's for sure) afterwards? Feels like as far as this debt goes you shot yourself in the foot when you had the chance to just stay neutral?

Edited May 27 by SleepingNinja
english is hard or something

[Shock]

15 pages? Surely he must have some actual proof that Myrmidons was a proxy of some kind

Oh.

[The Titan]

So technically we didn’t lie about the whole Eclipse thing. It was a simple… misunderstanding

The reason we offered to pay that amount was because that was the dollar amount of the damage you had taken. We realized we had delivered incorrect information (which we didn’t know was incorrect until you did) that resulted in your entering.

It was a good faith gesture. Not sure why it amounts to screwing people over.

And literally where is your proof that Myr is a Rose proxy? They literally just fought each other and they all said they don’t talk to Denison lol

Edited May 27 by The Titan

[leonissenbaum]

The actual details of this NAP are somewhat relevant to if a NAP was broken, could the full NAP text be posted here?

[BigMorf]

[EpimetheusTalks]

1 hour ago, SleepingNinja said:

So question here ; could you not have avoided this issue if you had just said no to initially helping Rose when you attacked TI? Or just withdrawn and not gotten involved or was that because Penta forced you to join "our side" (you weren't coordinating with us, that's for sure) afterwards? Feels like as far as this debt goes you shot yourself in the foot when you had the chance to just stay neutral?

We initially wanted to stay neutral but Rose said it would activate our treaties. We then agreed to Rose's plan to preempt TI in order to avoid a war with Spectre/EVH because Rose told us they were in separate coalitions. There were lots of reasons this didn't happen that will be in a later video. We later affirmed we would be staying neutral (after helping both sides diplomatically) but Rose said it was forming a hegemony with Eclipse and Pentaforce after the war and if we didn't hit TI we would be rolled by Pentaforce on their behalf. We agreed because we didn't want to get dogpiled and rolled out of the game. If we had managed to stay neutral we might still be in the position anyway because everyone knows Rose would 100% proxy us for not honoring that treaty. 

1 hour ago, The Titan said:

It was a good faith gesture. Not sure why it amounts to screwing people over.

And literally where is your proof that Myr is a Rose proxy? They literally just fought each other and they all said they don’t talk to Denison lol

It was insulting. To say nothing of the fact you talked trash about TFP to me in order to bait me into insulting them (I didn't) and then talked trash about us to bait TFP into insulting us. You were smiling while sticking the knife in. Velyni was doing the exact same thing, he was apologizing to us while goading Myrmidons into rolling us over 'betraying them' and when we confronted him about it he denied speaking to them. It's in the logs plain as day. If Rose stands by the idea that we betrayed them why hide it? And if goading Myr was not a NAP breach why hide it?

1 hour ago, leonissenbaum said:

The actual details of this NAP are somewhat relevant to if a NAP was broken, could the full NAP text be posted here?

White peace between Rose Coalition and Camelot / Samurai,
NAP between Rose Coalition and Camelot that will match the eventual agreed upon NAP between the EVH coalition and Rose coalition NAP. (Samurai excluded as they don’t sign NAPs),

In addition to the basic NAP, the following clauses will be added to it and last for its duration:

1. No spy attacks between both sides,
2. No proxy wars between both sides including hiring Arrgh / pirate wheels / pirate buy outs,
3. Any NAP violations or breaks should be resolved using good faith diplomacy,
4. Repeated NAP violations or breaks will result in the termination of the NAP,
5. Ordinary movement of members between alliances does not violate the NAP unless that nation predominantly targets the other party,
6. Existing M-level and O-level treaties trump the NAP,
7. NAP covers any merges/rebrands,
8. Effective at day-change. Any wars declared prior to DC may be finished by beige, expiration, or peace. Any wars declared after DC must be peaced out.

Edited May 27 by EpimetheusTalks

[Conald Petersen]

9 minutes ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

Any NAP violations or breaks should be resolved using good faith diplomacy,

odd...who put that in there?

[ranoss]

sam is a cam proxy 

[Rageproject]

I’m sure this will all turn out fine for everyone. 

Speaking of bait…. I’m not voting in this poll. 

[Shock]

1 hour ago, EpimetheusTalks said:

You were smiling while sticking the knife in. Velyni was doing the exact same thing, he was apologizing to us while goading Myrmidons into rolling us over 'betraying them' and when we confronted him about it he denied speaking to them. It's in the logs plain as day. If Rose stands by the idea that we betrayed them why hide it? And if goading Myr was not a NAP breach why hide it?

Could you please provide the specific logs that prove this? I watched the entire video and read the entire document and recall nothing resembling logs of Velyni or anyone else having any communication with Myr, let alone "goading" them. If you have that log and I just missed it I genuinely would like to see that. Otherwise, this whole argument is without substance.

Edited May 27 by Shock

[Hoffy]

Have to admit, regardless of whether people judge you to be in the right or wrong, I’ve enjoyed reading the whole thing. It’s fun to see the nitty gritty details and your own perspective. I’ll have a watch of that video too later

[Dr Rush]

So I read the doc, lots of claims about rose which if true would be a violation of your nap and justify a war. Not seeing anything for TFP, you know the alliance your actually hitting, though?

[Chima]

Rose bad, Camelot bad. Now just hug and be friends 

[EpimetheusTalks]

4 hours ago, Dr Rush said:

So I read the doc, lots of claims about rose which if true would be a violation of your nap and justify a war. Not seeing anything for TFP, you know the alliance your actually hitting, though?

Our position is that the NAP was signed between two collective parties and when Rose violated the NAP (and cost us our rebuild) that was a sufficient reason to withdraw from it.

We investigated the breach and after it became clear Rose was denying things that verifiably happened we formally withdrew. Members of Rose Sphere later approached us about restoring it and we said we'd agree on one of two conditions, either they paused the interest on our loans so we could afford to rebuild again (and pay them off over 12 months instead of 8) or they publicly said what they'd been saying to us in private (which is that we were justified and didn't set out to betray them). The purpose of this being to invalidate Myrmidons CB and reduce the grassroot support they were receiving from Rose members.

Rose ignored both of these offers and didn't seriously address our reasons for leaving the NAP. Furthermore, we became aware that people were trying to buy the debt to use as a CB against us after the Myrmidon war and justify another hit post rebuild. One of the banks, to their absolute credit, realized how wrong that was and said no. Another bank, who you'd suspect, probably did take up that offer.

It was a pretty ingenious trap. They put us in debt, removed our ability to pay the debt, tried to seize our collateral (and failed by mistake), and then signed up more mercenaries to hit us because of our failure to pay.

TFP for its part in all of this claimed it had the power to stop Myrmidon from attacking our protectorate if they cancelled us. Our prots refused and disclosed this information to us which was important because it demonstrated there was some level of control over them. Spectre couldn't stop them but TFP and Rose could? This is present in the logs I shared earlier as a ground for suspicion.

Regardless, we did not intend to attack Rose and TFP over this. We initially bluffed that we would respond if they continued rolling and pulling our prots but we lacked the funds to actually do it.

Our goal was and is to try and make enough money to rebuild. That's why we organized a nuke auction with Hatebi. We were raising money at the cost of political power. We did not have any input on which alliances were involved in the auction or what the compositions of the teams would be or we'd have removed Spectre. I did not anticipate that TFP would lose. If I'm being frank, I thought Guardian would. If I'm being more honest, we voted against Rose in round 1 which won't surprise anyone. However, that was mostly to drive the prize pool up because we knew they'd buy their way out and we'd get a cut of the profits.

That's not to say we dislike hitting TFP though. We had the choice between them and Weebunism and we chose them for a variety of reasons, mostly logistical. It's also worth noting that TFP found out we'd be participating in the nuke auction and knew it was the only team not buying a significant amount of votes and militarized accordingly. TFP saw this coming, we didn't blindsided them at all. Contrast that with Myrmidon hitting us after they said they wouldn't hit us and told us to demil.

Conflating the reason we left the NAP with the reason we hit TFP is inaccurate but if that's the game they want to play I don't mind much. They're not stellar examples of people that have upheld NAPs in the past, especially not with us. Furthermore, as I said to Rose, NAPs have a purpose, they are not merely paper shields and black letter laws. You can't treat alliances terribly and push them to the brink of destruction and expect them to prioritize a treaty with an enemy over their survival. This is an argument they understand because they told us to prioritize our survival over our treaty with Spectre when they threatened to roll us with a hegemony if we didn't hit TI.

Tl:Dr We left the NAP because Myrmidion, Rose and TFP did stuff. However as Hatebi can attest we only hit TFP because they were unlucky. However, we're happy with how it's turning out.

[Daveth]

In the Matter of Camelot v. Rose

This Court, having duly considered the evidence and testimony presented, finds in favor of the petitioner, Epimetheus, leader of Camelot. The evidence has demonstrated to the Court's satisfaction that the respondent, Rose, failed to uphold the essential terms of the M-level agreement entered into by the parties. The respondent's non-performance constitutes a material breach, effectively rendering the agreement null and void. Furthermore, the subsequent military actions taken by Camelot against Rose and its allies are deemed justified under the prevailing circumstances. Judgment is entered accordingly.

In the Matter of Camelot v. TFP

Upon review of the pleadings, evidence, and arguments submitted in the Matter of Camelot v. TFP, this Court concludes that there is currently insufficient evidence to support the petitioner’s claim. The record as it stands lacks corroborating material of sufficient relevance to meet the burden of proof required for a finding in favor of Camelot. Accordingly, while the case shall not be dismissed outright, it shall remain pending awaiting further evidence or testimony that may substantiate the claims. 

Furthermore, this Court acknowledges the respondent TFP’s assertion of a potential counterclaim arising from an alleged breach of contract by Camelot. Should TFP elect to pursue this counterclaim, it will be duly considered and adjudicated in accordance with the rules governing such claims. The matter remains open for further evidence and arguments on both the original claim and any counterclaims that may be filed.

Edited May 28 by Daveth

[Sketchy]

Already had this debate in RON, but for posterities sake:

You broke a NAP. This whole argument falls flat on multiple levels.

1. You haven't proven Rose goaded anyone into hitting you. No logs. No basis for this claim at all.
2. BUT even if you had proven this claim, it wouldn't be a nap breach. It's not breaking the terms of a nap to discuss your grievances with an alliance to other alliances. You would need proof of a payment or quid pro quo for this to be a nap breach. You've not even made the claim, yet alone shown proof of it.
3. BUT even if it was a nap breach, as you claim, this still wouldn't justify hitting TFP. You cannot unilaterally leave a NAP you signed with multiple parties to hit a party that wasn't in breach of the nap. If for arguments sake, you could prove Rose had broken your nap, which you haven't at all, you could justify hitting Rose, not hitting TFP.
4. Your claim regarding the need for rebuild money is irrelevant. You had two options to target in the Arrgh event. You could have chosen to target the party whom you didn't possess a NAP with. You still chose to violate your nap.

Everything I read from both the video you provided and the logs you shared was a complete mish mash of logs much of which didn't seem to directly connect to claims you were making. Many other points in the post seem like pieces of claims to try and build/support a case against Rose, such as this loan/debt trapping scheme, which you've not sufficiently proven either, but since you didn't hit Rose, and nothing short of a NAP violation can justify you breaching the nap, they are irrelevant.

Rose seems to be irrelevant here entirely. You can't use them to justify breaching the nap to hit TFP.

You are in violation of the nap. Congratulations on hitting your peak crash out.

[Corvidae]

Honestly I did not expect such a solid argument from your side Epi, and I'll be honest I'm leaning towards agreeing the NAP was nullified by Rose's proxy actions.

Do NAP-breaking things, expect NAP-breaking surprises I guess.

I understand TFP was the target of Arrgh and I don't begrudge you wanting to go raiding if you're broke but I do echo other's wondering why you hit TFP instead of Rose? It seems like all your frustration is directed at them and TFP is more of a supporting actor.

Edited May 27 by Corvidae

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

1 hour ago, Daveth said:

In the Matter of Camelot v. Rose

This Court, having duly considered the evidence and testimony presented, finds in favor of the petitioner, Epimetheus, leader of Camelot. The evidence has demonstrated to the Court's satisfaction that the respondent, Rose, failed to uphold the essential terms of the agreement entered into by the parties. The respondent's non-performance constitutes a material breach, effectively rendering the agreement null and void. Furthermore, the subsequent military actions taken by Camelot against Rose and its allies are deemed justified under the prevailing circumstances. Judgment is entered accordingly.

In the Matter of Camelot v. TFP

Upon review of the pleadings, evidence, and arguments submitted in the Matter of Camelot v. TFP, this Court concludes that there is currently insufficient evidence to support the petitioner’s claim. The record as it stands lacks corroborating material of sufficient relevance to meet the burden of proof required for a finding in favor of Camelot. Accordingly, while the case shall not be dismissed outright, it shall remain pending awaiting further evidence or testimony that may substantiate the claims. 

Furthermore, this Court acknowledges the respondent TFP’s assertion of a potential counterclaim arising from an alleged breach of contract by Camelot. Should TFP elect to pursue this counterclaim, it will be duly considered and adjudicated in accordance with the rules governing such claims. The matter remains open for further evidence and arguments on both the original claim and any counterclaims that may be filed.

What kind of Kangaroo Court is this?  you cant rule till you hear from the defense.

[Daveth]

28 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

What kind of Kangaroo Court is this?  you cant rule till you hear from the defense.

Defense was already heard on the Matter of Camelot v. Rose. Moreover, you are hereby found in contempt of the Court. @Presidential no chocolate pudding for this one for a month. 

Edited May 27 by Daveth

[Fine]

38 minutes ago, Corvidae said:

I understand TFP was the target of Arrgh and I don't begrudge you wanting to go raiding if you're broke but I do echo other's wondering why you hit TFP instead of Rose? It seems like all your frustration is directed at them and TFP is more of a supporting actor.

As I understand, and what actors such as Sketchy are trying to strawman out of, is that this war isn't Cam hitting TFP because of Rose,
It's Cam hitting TFP as a result of teaming up with Arrgh, and not being bound by the NAP between Rose Coalition & Camelot because Rose had violated it and Cam considers it null after I assume attempts at diplomacy,

[Corvidae]

12 minutes ago, Fine said:

As I understand, and what actors such as Sketchy are trying to strawman out of, is that this war isn't Cam hitting TFP because of Rose,
It's Cam hitting TFP as a result of teaming up with Arrgh, and not being bound by the NAP between Rose Coalition & Camelot because Rose had violated it and Cam considers it null after I assume attempts at diplomacy,

Yeah that's my understanding as well.

[EpimetheusTalks]

1 hour ago, Sketchy said:

Already had this debate in RON, but for posterities sake:

You broke a NAP. This whole argument falls flat on multiple levels.

1. You haven't proven Rose goaded anyone into hitting you. No logs. No basis for this claim at all.
2. BUT even if you had proven this claim, it wouldn't be a nap breach. It's not breaking the terms of a nap to discuss your grievances with an alliance to other alliances. You would need proof of a payment or quid pro quo for this to be a nap breach. You've not even made the claim, yet alone shown proof of it.
3. BUT even if it was a nap breach, as you claim, this still wouldn't justify hitting TFP. You cannot unilaterally leave a NAP you signed with multiple parties to hit a party that wasn't in breach of the nap. If for arguments sake, you could prove Rose had broken your nap, which you haven't at all, you could justify hitting Rose, not hitting TFP.
4. Your claim regarding the need for rebuild money is irrelevant. You had two options to target in the Arrgh event. You could have chosen to target the party whom you didn't possess a NAP with. You still chose to violate your nap.

Everything I read from both the video you provided and the logs you shared was a complete mish mash of logs much of which didn't seem to directly connect to claims you were making. Many other points in the post seem like pieces of claims to try and build/support a case against Rose, such as this loan/debt trapping scheme, which you've not sufficiently proven either, but since you didn't hit Rose, and nothing short of a NAP violation can justify you breaching the nap, they are irrelevant.

Rose seems to be irrelevant here entirely. You can't use them to justify breaching the nap to hit TFP.

You are in violation of the nap. Congratulations on hitting your peak crash out.

1. Myrmidon's said that they attacked us (at least in part) because Velyni was talking to them about us betraying Rose Sphere. He was simultaneously telling us that we had not betrayed Rose Sphere and that we were justified. When we asked him if he'd spoken to Myrmidon he lied and said he hadn't. I provided the log of him talking with Myrmidon, talking with us, and then lying both in the video and in the document. If what he'd said to Myrmidon was true and acceptable then he wouldn't have hid it. He was being two faced.
2. They're a mercenary alliance that was paid for fighting in the last global war and the one before that. It is not outside the realm of possibility that they were hired and as an alliance that has hired them in the past we can attest to their discretion. Furthermore, you do not need quid pro quo for there to be a breach of the NAP. If Rose tells someone to hit us then that is a violation of the NAP even if they don't pay them.
3. We signed the NAP on a coalition level and therefore Rose's breach was their coalition's breach. "NAP between Rose Coalition and Camelot". This was consistent with our last NAP with Rose in December wherein they made us responsible for Samurai's breaches of the NAP. For example, if the NAP they imposed on us in December had been on the individual level then Samurai could breached it on day 1 and we'd have still been protected. This issue came up a bunch a bunch of times and we both consistently affirmed the coalition interpretation. The Fighting Pacifists/Rose have only decided the individual level is a good idea because it's convenient for them in the moment. Their decision has no bearing on our interpretation though and we don't have to defer to them. If in future they want to reform the precedent that's fine but they should include it in the treaty text, here is a potential reform that we'd agree with:
   1. "But no, I stand by if A and B were in sphere when they fought, signed a NAP while in that sphere and were still part of that sphere when the NAP was breached, the NAP shouldn't be voided only for the part of the sphere that breached it but the whole agreement would be compromised, especially since I find it hard to believe one party would purposefully breach that NAP to such an extent where it couldn't be resolved peacefully while not communicating at all with their sphere as to what they were doing, that sort of violation is purposeful not accidental" - Fine and Dandy
4. We did intend to avoid fighting alliances we used to have a NAP with in the auction if possible. However, when the choice was presented to us we were more comfortable hitting TFP and it was better logistically.

[LoneTechWiz]

To my knowledge there were not attempts at resolving it diplomatically. I asked Epi for evidence of a nap violation he claimed he didn't need to provide one. Rose then reached out to him trying to resolve it diplomatically from what I was told but I was not involved in those discussions. This message from Epi was the first in our peace group chat since we came to a peace agreement. 

 

Edited May 27 by LoneTechWiz