[RoH] Orangutans Correct the Record

[Canbec]

27 minutes ago, Sargun said:

I forgot to 1-ship guardian last war so I was blowing 330 ships worth of munitions and gasoline every attack which really makes me wonder if the reason I got suicide attacked so much was because I was blowing so many resources that I was technically losing

@TKR Econ please tax this man even more

[Boltzlem]

I’m exited to see who TKR hits in 2026 for a DM sent in the last few or next few days. 

[Mac]

😂

[lancelot1]

I’ve lost 10s of infra so far from Sing’s raid war missiles into my infra depleted cities so I can’t wait for white peace 

[WarriorSoul]

me knowing i am in the most morally righteous and perpetually correct alliance in the game

[Star Butterfly]

https://youtu.be/9bI9EjzYqsI

[Rosa Maclean]

Orangutans and a literal HIVEMIND arguing, let's do this!

So, basically, 5000 words of arguing against the SINGULARITY, which argued at you, fight fire with fire ig.

[Kastor]

this entire conflict has been entertaining ngl

[Uncle Iroh]

4 hours ago, Adrienne said:

 

[KalupsesTR]

3 hours ago, Sargun said:

I forgot to 1-ship guardian last war so I was blowing 330 ships worth of munitions and gasoline every attack which really makes me wonder if the reason I got suicide attacked so much was because I was blowing so many resources that I was technically losing

Thank you for your service good Sir,  those efforts made it possible for  Guardian to end the war net positive.

[Conald Petersen]

I speak for all of the bonobos and gibbons: we cannot read and just want to know when bananas will go back to being under $200 per bunch

[Danzek]

6 hours ago, Adrienne said:

What you’re referring to is a situation where it came up organically in RON, and Canbec told his side of the story there by sharing a screenshot of a detailed explanation he had provided to TKR membership.

I have no stake in this, I just like the drama. The entire backroom context is potentially lost on me, but for anyone curious, I think it refers to these messages posted by canbec in RON:

https://discord.com/channels/446601982564892672/599998912128090133/1315494152430944327

Which brings me to the bruhaha surrounding the 24-Hour War. It's no secret members were angry about that war - that's the whole reason I decided to step down as
King, as I felt I would be unable to regain members' trust. But again now that time has passed, I can reveal some extra information that we were not able to provide at
the time due to the need to maintain OPSEC.

I was against our involvement in that war from the outset, and after resisting for about 2 weeks, eventually agreed to a war our allies wanted, in exchange for certain
concessions from the coalition that was requesting our help. In exchange for our involvement in that war, we had secured support from Rose, Singularity and others
to ensure that Eclipse would be handed two defeats in the first 6 months of 2024. This was designed not only to get our revenge for Eclipse attacking us for no
reason in September 2023, but also to stall their growth for a significant amount of time. We would not have taken part in both wars ourselves, which would have
ensured we did not fall behind any of the other major alliances.

Unfortunately, the 24-Hour War did not go as intended, and we ultimately agreed to a ceasefire after 24 hours to save Florida (Rosesphere). At the time, I was
convinced that the quick peace would not affect the other alliances' commitments to us regarding Eclipse, as it was not solely our decision to peace the war.
Unfortunately, Singularity were successful in spinning a narrative of dishonesty against TKR, taking advantage of the void left following my resignation as King (as I
was the one most intricately familiar with the specifics of the negotiations). They claimed we had colluded with t$ to set up the 24-Hour War to play out as it did

when in reality we had not discussed with t$ at all until they came to us offering peace following the blitz. Singularity were particularly mad because they did not get 
the Win they were hoping to get against t$ after having waited 2 weeks for a coalition to come save them. This campaign by Singularity not only gave other alliances
an excuse/out to not support our efforts against Eclipse, but sowed so much distrust that Eclipse was able to get them to sign onto a never before seen peacetime
NAP, to isolate us ahead of the war we fought in May

---

T$ came to us (TKR) for peace about 12-14 hours after the blitz. We asked if they were only offering us or if they would extend the offer to the whole coalition (because we would not have agreed to just leave them hanging). t$ said they'd be willing to white peace Rosesphere & ODOO and would finish their war with Sing&Co. At that point we checked in with Rose to see what they thought, with a view that it might free up manpower to focus on Eclipse. Important to remember that at that point, Rose had the most to lose from continuing the fight since they were likely going to be dragged down by Eclipse, while ODOO was fairly well position to win against SAIL even if Rosesphere fell (as we were NAP'd with Eclipse).

After discussing, we agreed to request WP for Sing&Co as well to avoid any surprises from separate peace talks between Sing and SAIL. t$ agreed on the condition we also all peace out Eclipse. So that's where we ended up.

Because of the way this back and forth played out (essentially adding one bloc at a time), by the time it was brought to Sing it was pretty much a fait accompli - so I can understand their claims to an extent. While I believe Sing would've been quite happy continuing to fight, they also had nothing left to lose at that point while Rosesphere was looking at an L and ODOO was looking at an expensive W. 

---

canbec: Yeah Grumpy signed Rose like 2 minutes before Eclipse blitzed
canbec: Which I think would've been very hard to hold up as a basis for Grumpy defending Rose against Eclipse despite the NAP
canbec: I wasn't involved with that treaty but I don't really think there was a plan. I think both parties panick-signed and then realized it was ill-advised
canbec: It certainly wasn't part of any well thought-out plan
canbec: Eclipse decided to intervene in yet another war that didn't involve them, forcing us to pivot
canbec: The war itself didn't involve them. The commitment I got for future wars did

Edited February 15 by Danzek

[Canbec]

^ For the record, I stand by all of those explanations, except a few minor inconsistencies between that and the screenshots Adrienne posted above. I wrote the above explanation on the basis of my own recollections, so the exact timeline of how each sphere came to be included in the NAP was a bit fuzzy in my memory. Luckily we were able to dig up the logs Adrienne included in her post, which show we were even more proactive in obtaining peace offers for everyone than what I remembered at the time I wrote the above.

[Bobert]

i'm just sitting here wondering how Singularity botched there blitz this hard

[Tartarus]

11 hours ago, Vengeance said:

Not sure what the matter is but seems like 2 Macros having fights over a convo?

It might sound a little crazy, but only because the last few wars have been fights over measuring yard size

[Sketchy]

15 hours ago, Adrienne said:

What we did deny repeatedly was that you would have ever actually been left behind and subjected to unacceptable peace terms from SAIL. Because as I explained to you over and over again, in order for you to have been left behind, it would have required a sign off from Canbec, as well as all the leaders of ODOO and Rose-sphere. Even if you distrusted Morf for his comment, you’re skipping over a whole lot of other approvals that would have been required - it doesn’t take a genius here to figure out that it wasn’t going to happen.

So this is where we are moving the goal posts is it? I am glad you have provided the full log.

First off, I am well aware that other parties attempted to get us out. I will expand on that further, as I go through this post, point by point.

15 hours ago, Adrienne said:

But yes - the comment was made. To understand why it was though, we need to go back to the context of the One Day War and the lead up to it. While the One Day War started on January 31 of last year, SAIL and Sing had already been at war since the start of that month, after Sing had spent the month of December shedding infra on easy targets. Quite frankly, ODOO was content to sit back and let that war happen, as we had only recently rebuilt from our war against Eclipse and our primary concern was Eclipse.

Yes the comment was made. by the person organizing the peace. By your head of FA. I'm glad you mentioned your primary concern was Eclipse. That will be relevant later.

15 hours ago, Adrienne said:

Singularity and its allies were losing that war against SAIL, and so they reached out to us and Rose to try and build a coalition against Eclipse.

This is just false. We reached out to flip the t$ war and break a potential nap cycle on all parties, something both TKR and Rose were concerned about. What we got back from parties in ODOO was that wouldn't be doable unless an agreement was made about Eclipse. What we got back from parties in Rose-sphere after was they weren't interested if it meant hitting Eclipse and not SAIL.

We spoke to your allies, they made the position of ODOO known to us, namely that Eclipse needed to be hit, and so we went to Rose to convince them to come to the table and speak with you. You could say you weren't a party to the talks between us and your allies, but I feel it's likely your two primary allies were in communication with you about the conversations taking place prior to you being brought into it.

Simply put, ODOO wanted Eclipse to lose, twice. We wanted to flip our war on t$ and beat them. And Rose wanted to prevent a future nap cycle. I will elaborate on the specifics of this deal further in the post.

I have actually noticed this narrative crop up lately, in terms of who wanted what in the One Day War. I have logs to disprove it. I had hoped to avoid using them, but since you are trying to rewrite the very nature of the deals that were made, I suppose I'll have to. We'll get to that.

It is worth noting who wanted what, and what the actual terms of the agreement made was, because the next part of this will be how I demonstrate that you broke it.

15 hours ago, Adrienne said:

We entered the war alongside Rose-sphere, and almost immediately shit started to hit the fan. There were rumors going around that Eclipse might enter the war against Rose, and we as a coalition were trying to decide how best to handle it if that happened. Grumpy signed treaties with Rose and Guardian to try and deter a hit from Eclipse, but then only one turn after the war started, Eclipse countered Rose-sphere and they started to go down. We were, as a coalition, then unsure how best to proceed as the war wasn’t looking positive at that point, and we were trying to determine our options on a war that had quickly taken a turn for the worse. We had a few different options:

1. Let Rose-sphere take the loss against Eclipse and continue to help Sing against SAIL. As ODOO had a NAP with Eclipse, we were safe from their intervention and expected we could win against SAIL. But from a pure cost-benefit analysis standpoint, that didn’t make much sense when Sing had no infra left after 2 months of war and Rose had just entered the war with full infra.
2. Have TI and Grumpy (who had just signed a treaty with Rose/Guardian) help out Rose. However, given that Grumpy was in a NAP with Eclipse from our war with them prior to TI joining our bloc and this treaty was signed in the period between us beginning this war and Eclipse entering against Rose, there were legitimate concerns over whether or not this would be a NAP violation, especially since Eclipse purported to enter the war defensively through their ODP with Knights Templar, who Rose had hit. There were also concerns about Grumpy and TI spreading themselves too thin, and what that would mean for the t$ front.

And now we get into the meat and potatoes. You have sufficiently poisoned the well, and are of course hoping the long preamble will be enough to hide the glaring contradictions in your own statements. This is why I didn't bother giving those points much time.

Now I could lay out the exact events and details of what happened, but first I'd like to laser in on a pretty clear contradiction in your post.

"However, given that Grumpy was in a NAP with Eclipse from our war with them prior to TI joining our bloc and this treaty was signed in the period between us beginning this war and Eclipse entering against Rose, there were legitimate concerns over whether or not this would be a NAP violation, especially since Eclipse purported to enter the war defensively through their ODP with Knights Templar, who Rose had hit."

I'm not going to squabble over whether that would have been a NAP break. I am happy to see more detailed NAPs have started to become part of the meta since we implemented them on t$, so hopefully debates like that won't be needed in the future. My position is it wasn't, as Eclipse entered the war through an optional defense, which by definition, is optional, and hit Grumpy's then MD ally. I don't need to argue with you over it though, because as you have demonstrated in your own post, Grumpy was perfectly willing to enter the war and defend Rose, if certain conditions were met. Either Grumpy was willing to break a nap, and you were willing to be a party to it, OR, neither of you viewed it as a nap break. Which is what I suspect is the case. I appreciate you providing this log, as I only had one of Morf saying they would. It's always better to have it from the horses mouth.

This what what I had:

I didn't have this one though:

 

So what can we establish from these two logs?

Grumpy and TKR either viewed entering in defense of Rose, as a nap break, but were willing to do so anyway, or, didn't view it as a nap break. Which begs the question, why even bring it up?

If you never viewed it as a nap break to begin with, why is it being used as reason for you not to enter against Eclipse?

Why are you contradicting yourself, claiming that you saw concerns with nap breaking, whilst freely sharing logs demonstrating an absolute lack of concern and a perfect willingness to enter?

Well it's really very simple isn't it. You were perfectly happy to see Grumpy defend the treaties that they signed, with the purpose of defending Rose from Eclipse. But only on the condition that t$ was peaced out first. Grumpy was called in. TI, was willing to go. We went already, hitting Eclipses allies. Everyone else was exposed, already in conflict. Roses front would have inevitably lost.

You saw an opportunity to change the deal. And you took it.

 

So what was the deal?

This is the part you have disputed. You have tried to claim that you were offered a back to back hit on t$/Eclipse, that our pitch was to hit t$ first, then to hit Eclipse, and that you agreed. Doing this absolves ODOO of breaking their side of the agreement, by making it seem like we pushed for it. In reality, I approached your allies The Immortals and Grumpy about flipping on t$. I laid out my reasoning for doing so, that a potential nap cycle would be placed on us both, and we might indeed lose back to back wars as a result. I made the case that t$ and Eclipse, after Sin was down and out, might reasonably choose to team up and remove Rose and TKR from the board. This was a point both Grumpy and TI agreed upon.

I do apologize to Presidential and Tyrion for having to drop these logs, but given I'm having to defend against TKR making claims that aren't true, I've been a little boxed in to doing so To be fully transparent, there is a deleted message in this log that Pres responds to. That message pertained to a source of information that verified some claims I was making in this gc, and in the interest of not burning that source, I have removed it. It's not relevant to the actual discussion being had here, and I can speak on it privately, if needed to remind anyone of what that message contained.

As I have freely admitted, it was my decision to approach TI and Grumpy about a hit on SAIL. I also freely admit Eclipse and Syndicates connections were part of the sell. This was off the back of an intel clause break by Eclipse to us, as Pres mentions in this log (we knew this already), and Eclipse discarding an alliance we had intended to sign in the future to be hit by SAIL. However I did not pitch hitting Eclipse. That was pitched to us. The primary concern from ODOO that was relayed back was that this wasn't a hit on Eclipse. Repeatedly. That ODOO would be "hard pressed to hit Sail and not see Eclipse hit too".

Now I'd like to point out something else interesting about this log. As is obvious, by the fact ODOO hit SAIL, and not Eclipse, this pitch that Tyrion makes was not the agreed upon deal in question. It is however exactly, word for word, what TKR attempted to shift the deal towards once Eclipse entered.

 

As you can see, we were asked, by ODOO, to sign onto hits on Eclipse. You guys wanted Sing/TI/Florida to chain into Eclipse, so that in May, you could queue them up for a follow up hit, while we stayed on standby for SAIL interference. Or "eat seconds" as it were. I'll get to what the final deal was soon, don't worry, but I want yet again highlight that your part of the deal, the part ODOO requested, was to beat Eclipse. Not once, but twice. As you said earlier, Eclipse was your primary concern. It wasn't our ask. Compromises took place.

This has been a longstanding issue we've had with some of the narratives that have come out, and been parroted by parties since one day war ended. ODOO made a deal with us and a deal with Rose, a deal that gave them what they wanted. They didn't come in to save us, they came in to save themselves. They were set to be crushed in the next cycle, and when One Day War fell apart, and their decision to break the agreement lost them Rose's support, that is exactly what happened.

But I digress. The tale isn't finished yet.

Now some time shortly after this conversation, I spoke to Rose and made attempts to convince them to speak to ODOO. I had been trying to convince Rose to come into the war that same time I made my first pitch to ODOO, alongside ODOO, but they didn't think ODOO would do it. I brought these concerns stated above to Rose, and also to my allies. I don't know all of the specifics after this point, I believe Buorhann had a conversation with Canbec, and Rose and TKR may have spoken privately. At this point, everyone knew that ODOO wanted to hit Eclipse, and that Rose wanted to hit SAIL, and that this was the main point of contention.

Rose informed me they would entertain further talks with TKR, and what this led to was another group chat, this time including TKR and Rose, led by Buorhann, with Sing people present.

Buorhann played mediator, trying his best to speak on behalf of both parties involved. In his initial post he laid out concerns from both sides, and his opinions on what should happen. I believe by this point Rose was entertaining the idea of helping with Eclipse in a chaining situation, but was still reluctant to hit them first. Buorhann very clearly outlined in the initial post, that we all expected Eclipses entry. This is another part of the narrative you've describe here that I will have to pick at.

As you can see in this log. You guys shared the same concerns we had expressed to you. It has been claimed since that you didn't see the connection, including in your post above, but that's just false. Your sticking point in this situation was hitting Eclipse first, and forcing us to peace out with SAIL, not that you thought we were wrong. You have claimed you had no stake in the war, but as was illustrated at the time, you very much felt you had a stake in how things played out. It's why you ultimately agreed to enter.

You guys were very concerned about Eclipse. Eclipses growth. Eclipses likely victory over you in the near future. We did agree to enter against WELP, should they counter Rose during the hit, a commitment we ultimately honored, when Grumpy did not.

This all brings me to the final deal.

A hit on SAIL, in exchange for Eclipse. A tit for a tat. You got what you wanted, Eclipse. And we got what we wanted, SAIL.

Eclipse entered, a variable that was outlined at the very beginning and understood to be a risk, and that parties took steps to account for.

Singularity burst into action, fulfilling our part by hitting allies of Eclipse. TI stood ready to do so as well. But Grumpy refused. Citing plane rebuys and the grey area of the nap. Of course, later, the grey area of the nap became less of a concern conveniently. Which brings me to my final conclusion, and the piece of all of this you've neglected to mention.

What if we or Rose had said no?

To summarize, we've established a few things:

1. TKR said in a private channel, to their allies, they were perfectly fine leaving us in the fight. Sure, you claim you could push us to surrender to t$, as a possible alternative, but that wasn't part of our deal. It wasn't a point that was discussed with us either. You made a group chat, with Rose, in an attempt to convince them to screw us over. Rose informed us, and we were added by them. Had they not done so, who knows when we would have been looped in or how, presumably we would have been told it was expected of us to peace out SAIL. I knew this all happened, at the time it did.
2. ODOO wanted us to surrender to SAIL from the start. In fact, it was part of your opening offer to us, your ideal scenario, that we rejected when we all agreed to meet in the middle. There is a very obvious implication here. Singularity had no choice. We were expected to ignore the previously established deal, OR face being left behind. Now you can argue, until your face is blue, that this is a reasonable ask on your part. It doesn't matter, that wasn't the deal that was agreed upon. Deals require compromise, and at that point in time, we had just come of a war where you attacked us, after we fought together against Fortuna.
3. Grumpy refused to uphold their end. ODOO used the nap, as an excuse, for Grumpy to not enter. If plane rebuys were the only issue, you wouldn't have clung to the nap as an excuse, only to then turn around and be perfectly fine with Grumpy later entering with Eclipse. This is established by your own logs, in which you have shown Grumpy was perfectly willing to enter, and the logs I provided above, which show TKR was happy for Grumpy to enter.

So how do these three points tie together exactly?

Eclipse, in a move that we had all considered and made steps to counter, entered the war. And as you so helpfully laid out, you were presented with a choice.

15 hours ago, Adrienne said:

• Let Rose-sphere take the loss against Eclipse and continue to help Sing against SAIL. As ODOO had a NAP with Eclipse, we were safe from their intervention and expected we could win against SAIL. But from a pure cost-benefit analysis standpoint, that didn’t make much sense when Sing had no infra left after 2 months of war and Rose had just entered the war with full infra.
• Have TI and Grumpy (who had just signed a treaty with Rose/Guardian) help out Rose. However, given that Grumpy was in a NAP with Eclipse from our war with them prior to TI joining our bloc and this treaty was signed in the period between us beginning this war and Eclipse entering against Rose, there were legitimate concerns over whether or not this would be a NAP violation, especially since Eclipse purported to enter the war defensively through their ODP with Knights Templar, who Rose had hit. There were also concerns about Grumpy and TI spreading themselves too thin, and what that would mean for the t$ front.

As you have illustrated here, your choices were simple. The second choice you list, was to uphold the deal, following through on commitments. As we have established, Grumpy was fine to do so when it suited them. The concerns about NAP violations, were not concerns at all. You were both perfectly fine to take that step, but only in the scenario ODOO originally pitched, not the one we were agreed to.

The first choice, as you lay it out very nice and clear, was to leave Rose to die. And that IS the choice you both made. At first, we were told TI and Grumpy might enter at the next DC. That would have been too late, so we pushed for a closer entry. Then, Grumpy said, in no uncertain terms, that they wouldn't enter. They had made their choice, and the rest of us would be expected to deal with it.

In this, ODOO broke not only your commitment to us, but your commitments to Rose, and left us with no choice. It was not a discussion. We were not given a say. We were told, you had no intention of entering, and that by extension, Rose would die to Eclipse. Not only this, but you were already negotiating with t$, and could have taken peace if we didn't concede to your terms. Which would have left us fighting both simultaneously.

Now, you have made the point, that the time between the comments made by Morf, and the peace, was short. That is correct. That wasn't our choice either. It was made clear that things needed to be settled by the ingame update. It was a rather rushed peace, as many of the parties who were shuffled into it unwillingly may remember. Not only was there no discussion about what would happen, but there was a timer placed upon us to make a decision. For what reason, did the decision need to be made so soon? Another added layer of pressure, to get us and Rose to capitulate. Seeing the writing on the wall, we agreed quickly. And you've done your best to try and use that as the basis that nothing bad would have happened. But it's very clear what our choices were, agree to take this deal.... or what? Rose dies to Eclipse, and as you said, you get a win over SAIL. Or, as you were already talking to SAIL about peace, and as Morf said himself, didn't care to get us out, you would have simply left us both.

These are not difficult dots to connect. You have even helped connect many of them yourselves. To summarize:

If we had said no, at best you would have left Rose to die (which you already were doing), and at worst, you would have left us both to die, and peaced out of the war. I happen to believe you would have done the latter.

 

That is all that needs to be said. I will give you props for actually taking the time to respond to my post, instead of hiding, as this game definitely needs more drama in it. But your post was missing quite a bit of context, which I have now provided.

Edited February 16 by Sketchy

[Roland of Enroth]

I'm not reading any of this.  As a Beer Khan, I support my Becky of the Becklord Becks and his boy sidekick A-bad-dog.  I don't care if they're wrong or right; nothing written here by either side is going to sway me from my goals of attacking TKR for the sheer unmitigated gal of stealing $66 in-game dollars from an applicant who once interviewed with us for an hour a month ago.  A finer Causus Belli there never was.  

[Cooper_]

1 hour ago, Sketchy said:

TKR said in a private channel, to their allies, they were perfectly fine leaving us in the fight.

I think alliances should take principled stands, and it's refreshing to see CBs that have some sense of intrigue and interesting politics.  The fact that you even took those principles into a losing war is pretty great to see!  

I just feel like this whole story is just absolutely missing the entire point @Adrienne makes.  Her point is that while Morf might've entertained the thought briefly, it never actually made it through other decision-makers in the alliance, fellow allies, nor actually mattered in practice.  How we can judge people for every unactionable comment they make, especially views that aren't shared by the key decision-maker @Canbec?  It's almost like every FA dept does this, and Morf was unlucky to get leaked.  I'm very confident if we dumped Singularity FA internals, we'd find a lot of random war plans and ideas to screw other alliances where everyone else is "maybe let's not do that."

[SleepingNinja]

Man this is great stuff, really great.

 

What's the most interesting thing here is every major got named at some point in these gigantic posts.. except EVH. EVH man good? 🤮 I gagged a little bit just saying it.

[Sketchy]

24 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

Man this is great stuff, really great.

 

What's the most interesting thing here is every major got named at some point in these gigantic posts.. except EVH. EVH man good? 🤮 I gagged a little bit just saying it.

EVH didn't even exist when this happened lmfao.

[SleepingNinja]

4 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

EVH didn't even exist when this happened lmfao.

Then you should know I was kidding and leave me a well-earned laugh react. 😭

[Sketchy]

6 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

Then you should know I was kidding and leave me a well-earned laugh react. 😭

I had no idea you were joking, I've always been under the impression jokes are meant to be funny.

Is this some sort of anti-comedy thing?

[SleepingNinja]

18 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

I had no idea you were joking, I've always been under the impression jokes are meant to be funny.

Is this some sort of anti-comedy thing?

The amount of gaslighting is insane when you even typed "lmfao" in the last reply. I won't be able to sleep tonight. Absolutely devastating.

[Sketchy]

20 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

The amount of gaslighting is insane when you even typed "lmfao" in the last reply. I won't be able to sleep tonight. Absolutely devastating.

Clearly I was laughing at you and not with you. I hope I haunt your dreams 🤣

[Buorhann]

I won’t lie, I was duped.  “EVH existed at that time???”

 

I honestly couldn’t remember.