[Poll] [Discussion] What do you believe is the best power source?

[Eviljak]

http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/2630-project-suggestion-thread/page-2#entry74324

 

Done

[Willam von Waldreich]

Nuclear Power. Its expensive to get at first but the amount of energy it produces is great and with one power plant you can power a larger city before you have to worry about buying another power plant which saves space for other buildings.

[Jefferson Davis III]

But coal/oil also produce manufactured resources. If you wish to do that (and not import coal/oil), then you must use even more improvement slots as to power your cities AND have the necessary amount of mines as to not produce a negative amount.

Lets do this, My nation is completely wind powered. 1 coal mine produces 6 tons of coal. 1 coal power station USES 6 TONS to power 500 infra. which means you need ANOTHER coal mine to produce anything. which means your max steel or max gasoline production is less than mine. ALL of my coal that I mine is able to be used for steel production.

 

I find that nuclear power is extremely efficient and powers a lot of space, but I would really recommend it only for nations that produce uranium (unless you just like spending lost of cash on the stuff. But I think I am going to experiment with it and see my results. but when it comes down to the wire, oil and coal are a dead tie, but its a tie for last place, while wind and nuclear are definitely a close competition for first.

[Bilal the Great]

Early, it depemds on what resource you're ng. If you produce oil and go for oil power, if you have coal go to coal wer. You'll save a lot of money by using power plants that use your own resource. However at around 1,000 infra nuclear is the best choice.

[Placentica]

What reason would someone have for choosing coal over oil, or vice versa? (In the poll I mean)

Upkeep is different combined with the resource costs being different.

[Jefferson Davis III]

As far as upkeep cost between power plant and resource, Wind is the best, And it appears that wind takes up more, actually, when you consider that one oil plant needs one oil well, and one coal plant needs one coal mine, then the spaces required are actually the same, the only power plant that actually uses less space is nuclear, but it is also the most expensive. 6 windmills power my capital, and their combined upkeep is just $3000. No res required. I have 1 nuclear plant that has an upkeep cost of $10,500 a day. In my capital, if I powered it with coal plants, I could use 3 coal plants at a total of $3,600 a day, plus the coal mine cost of 3 mines, which would equal another $1,800 a day. On top of that, you add pollution. And Since I don't produce oil, I don't know the cost of a oil well, But I do know that an oil plant cost more, so it makes since that a oil well cost less than a coal mine (to make things equal). So for small nations, coal and oil are viable options, but once you are able to afford it, wind and nuclear are clearly the best. BTW, for a 2,000 infra city, A nuclear plant would cost 10,500 dollars a day, plus 6 tons of Uranium a day which costs which costs $2,800 a ton, so six tons equals about $17,500 ish per day (if you aren't producing Uranium), equals a grand total of $28,000 per day to fuel a 2,000 infra city. While 8 windmills can do the same job at a cost of only $4,000 a day. (but you still have the debate of slots used, wind does use much more than nuclear, and the bigger you get, the bigger that gap grows. So it makes since for nuclear to be used in cities that have 100% commerce, plus civil upgrades.

[Spooner]

Oil Plant for the first 1,000 infra -> Swap out to a Nuclear plant when you're at 1,000 infra to open up 2 slots.

 

(At 1,100 infra it's 3 oil plants vs 1 nuclear plant)

[Dwemyrn]

Wind farms work great if you want to earn a little extra cash cuz upkeep is cheaper and it doesnt pollute at all.

[Kadin]

All of them!

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ceres

[Eviljak]

Really like wind power

[Alice Lune]

I use wind power in all my cities. It's maintenance is cheaper, uses no raw materials and you only need to invest in the 30k and 25 aluminium for building. A cost/effect comparison showed that until you reach 1000 infra, wind power is hands-down the most economical power plant. After 1000 infra, say, 1100 infra, you can scrap 3 of the wind power plants and turn 2 of them them into banks, shopping malls or some manufacturing centers, which pays off the nuclear power plant you're going to use.

 

Before 1000 infra, while you can pay off the daily cost of running a nuclear power plant, you will only break even with the maintenance if you use the remaining slot for commercial buildings.

 

Oil/coal powerplants are absolutely horrible at any part of infrastructure unless you're just starting out and doesn't have the resources and money necessary to build wind power plant in the first place. Anything that adds pollution is bad unless they make you money.

 

Consider this:

At 500 infra and you produce your own raw materials, you use 2 slots for oil/coal power plant, 2 slots for nuclear and 2 slots for wind power. So everything's the same, except at this point, wind power uses no raw materials and and is cheapest in maintenance.

At 1000 infra and you produce your own materials, you use 3 slots for oil/coal power, 2 slots for nuclear and 4 slots for wind power. Considering that wind power does not use any raw materials, have lower maintenance and nuclear only has 2 slots advantage over it, it's better to use wind power at this point still. The difference of 1 slot for oil/coal power makes no difference when you add in its higher maintenance, the need for raw materials and the fact that each slots will cause pollution.

[ataraxis]

Well, you can just buy/raid the coal/oil. So really it's 1 slot.

[Jefferson Davis III]

Well, you can just buy/raid the coal/oil. So really it's 1 slot.

You could, but there is no guarantee that you'll get enough coal, and that also can cause problems politically. So as a safe mode, it is better to keep at least enough fuel for your nations power. 

[ataraxis]

I didn't know that buying things would cause problems politically.

 

In commerce builds it's often more cost-effective to complete a commerce build rather than delay a few slots to resource production.

[Lilac Veritas]

I used oil then nuclear, cause I produced both oil and uranium, but wind is probs better until 1k infra when you look at the numbers.

[Ayayay]

but wind is probs better until 1k infra when you look at the numbers.

No it isn't

 

IIT: Idiots who think wind isn't useless

Edited April 20, 2015 by underlordgc

[SoS]

wind is good when you have all improvements and have nothing better to do with the slots.

[Pfeiffer]

wind is good when you have all improvements and have nothing better to do with the slots.

 

Please link me your 3800+ infra city.

[Shakyr]

Figured I'd look at the numbers, as people were commenting that Wind Power is the best, at around 1000 infra.

With 5 cities, 100% commerce, the difference in Net Income, between Wind Power and Coal Power (I produce Coal), was about $20,600 per day. This does take into account the drop of 140 Pollution Points (10 Coal Power + 10 Coal Mines).

To power 5 cities with Wind Power, it would cost around about $1,550,000 ($77,500 each, 4 per city, 20 improvements total), including the market price of 500 Aluminium @ 1900ppu. Now I produce Aluminium, but that Aluminium isn't free, as I could be potentially selling that off, instead of using it.

At the previously mentioned $20,600 per day, it would take roughly 75 days to recover the expense.

Anyone think I've missed something?

[LordRahl2]

You should all build wind power all the time.  Also lots of farms.  ktb

[Kamea Arano]

Alright who said wind? 

 

* Prepares the pimp slap hand *

[Greatnate]

You should all build wind power all the time.  Also lots of farms.  ktb

Man, this just makes me realize how little I have in common with 1,000 infra cities. Farms are great and nuclear is great, no question.

 

From the math perspective, wind  and nuclear at 1,000 infra, 1,000 land are very close. 73 payback period for wind and 70 payback period for nuclear, however there's a big slot difference at 1,100 infra in favor of nuclear. Farms are still sexy at large land values, which have their own defensive value.

[Placentica]

It depends on market prices for resources.  Slot usage usually favors nuclear over 1000 infra.  Pre-1000 generally oil is the most cost effective/slot effective even with the higher upkeep.

[Jefferson Davis III]

however, as you get bigger and bigger, you could use wind once you have used up all of your other slots, but I don't think anyone has gotten that far yet.

[Placentica]

Wind really is never going to be slot effective, until like 3000-4000 infra.  Up to 1800-2000 infra you are maximizing slot usage.  Even up to 2500 I'm guessing.  Only once you can take out the opportunity cost, does it work.

 

This is overdoing it, but I'm bored so:

 

Current cost of Coal: $1370

Current cost of Oil: $798

Current cost of uranium: $3,300

 

Assumptions: You have extra mines not being used.  Say and iron or baux mine - the net profit with 0% taxes for the sale of the raw materials of a mine is around $6,000-7,500.  To be conservative we'll say $6,000 due to alliance taxes.  This is the opportunity cost per improvement slot.

 

At 1000 infra: (Upkeep/Opportunity Cost/Raw Materials)

Wind total cost: $2000/$18000/$0 = $20,000 is the real cost

Coal: $2400/$6000/$16440 = $24,840
Oil: $3600/$6000/$9576 = $19,176

Nuclear: $10500/$0/$3300 = $13,800

 

At 1500 infra:  (Upkeep/Opportunity Cost/Raw Materials)

Wind: $3000/$30000/$0 = $33,000

Coal: $3600/$12000/$24660 = $40,260
Oil: $5400/$12000/$14364 = $31,764

Nuclear: $10500/$0/$6600 = $17,100

 

Nuclear is the clear winner.

 

Wind is never a good idea until you have used up all your resource slots at 2500+ infra.

 

I've said this for a long time, but when oil is at regular prices (sub-$1000), it's still the best power plant for smaller nations before they go nuclear.  Even if you don't run native oil.  I still tell people to run oil, and just buy oil in the markets, and stockpile to hedge against price spikes.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Placentica