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Getting Attacked Reworks (petition to alter War policy regarding Piracy Class, Initial Attack Timing, Requesting help, and Defensive National Projects)


cpennock
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I have been nuked, struck by missals, and raided. Pirates seem to constantly be at my nations door stealing, while I am perpetually stuck feeling unable to fully recuperate. Being attacked so much led me to investigate the classes of nations and see if this was a skill issue, or a game mechanic issue. Is there a source for this problem like attacking mechanics or class mechanics?

There's learning curves to any game, but this is more than a learning curve. Turtle nations really can't realistically be comparable to Pirate nations that started at the same time, given my findings. The difference is actually quite ridiculous. If you take the time to look at nations made on the same date, the variance between a pirate nation and another type of nation is absolutely noticeable. Today on 3.31 I looked at nations made 1 week ago 3.24. The best pirate nation has DOUBLE the score of every single non-pirate nation made on the same day of 3.24. The Average Pirate nation is 200 score points above the average non-pirate nation. THIS IS NOT A SKILL ISSUE IT IS A GAME MECHANIC ISSUE. The math doesn't lie, the averages don't align, thus the Pirate class is in an OP class zone, as it has basically a guarantee to give a +50% bonus to score for this given period of time. If we find the average money looted for the pirates made on 3.24, the pirate nations have already made an average of $39MILLION between them, if we look at the GDP for all these nations made on 3.24, the GDP is between about $70million to $777million. So In 1 week the pirates made 5% to %56 of the ENTIRE ECONOMIC QUARTERS worth of Money!! Certainly, by looking at nations for yourself and checking these facts, it can be seen that this is not really a reflection of politics and war, this is basically "Pirates: a national simulator." These are just the averages by the way, the best pirate nation in this is basically superior in every way to the other nations below it, by huge amounts, seemingly an unstoppable force. Sure, we can give credit to the Pirate Nations strategy for doing well military wise, but this gap in economic revenue means that almost every turtle nation that started at the time of the best pirate, working together, would probably have a 50% chance given that all the turtle nations together could economically equal the Pirate Nation, and it would be a possible fair fight. (that's assuming they can build a military with that money given the time frame to amass a force equal to that pirate... basically assumes they don't get attacked for a few days). So really, in my humble guess work, the odds to bring a pirate nation back into a similar size as its compatriots, it would probably be something of like 20% chance... that seems a tad low to be considered fair. 

 

Part of this imbalance also comes from how a nations score comes from infrastructure and military. So one nation that focuses on healthy cities with a sizeable army can have a rank of lets say 600, while another city can have poor cities with as much focus as possible on a military and also be 600. This puts them into war range of each other. So, how can this be fair as the player who wants cities with no crime, no pollution, and no disease is at a military advantage as those products also add to the nations score? For two nations of equal rank, the pirate and military focused player will always have a larger army than a player who is city focused. 

 

One prescribed solution is often to join an Alliance. This has been many people answer for a while, but it has a tipping point. Alliances if they grow to encompass all to most players basically turn P&W into Axis vs Allies. Also alliances can make huge stock piles, adjust currency, start nuclear wars, all of this really makes the game unbalanced towards anyone that want to do their own idea and forge their own path. Alliances often also tax and force war upon players joining, why should this be the only way to survive pirates?

 

There are many things dealing with incoming attacks, especially as a new player, that are a part of this balancing issue perhaps. 

1. An attacker can blockade a nation on the initial attack. 

     -It leaves the defender without options for gathering supplies impertinent to a defense. It's not always possible to have enough gas and ammo in a stock pile; banking on it's use in a whole entire blockaded war. It is essentially economically not possible for many new nations. 

     -Normally in war, a naval blockade doesn't magically appear without any sightings, notice, or response. A naval blockade takes time, resources, and many placement points to be done. This means that there should be some turns worth of warning that a naval blockade is forming. This can give the defending nation a moment to respond and purchase supplies for the war effort in case the defender loses the naval blockade. 

 

Solutions:

1.Make Naval blockades form over a time that represents the distance between countries.

 -More strategic and realistic. (if a country is 500 miles away, perhaps it takes 1 turn to get               there... this could mean depending on distance a naval blockade could be instant or take                 up to a few hours)

-A defensive Project for national shore line defense

                       -Could cost something like 5,000,000 currency and 1000 of steel. 

                       -Gives some % chance that a blockade doesn't form after the blockade war action is                            activated. 

-A black market trade project

 -Allows for a nation to trade up to some % durring a blockade.

 - Creates a secret trade route possiblity such that a certain ammount of resources can                        be traded durring a block ade

-Could cost something like 5 to 10million currencies. 

-Alternatively this could open a new game mechanic where by nations with this project                       complete can enter a new trade page. Where they can perhaps trade certain pre-set

  Amount of resources without tarrifs, taxes, limits, and irrelevant of naval blockades.

2. The Pirate Class is relatively Over Powered. 

-Alliances aren't always the answer to defend against pirates

-blitzing can seem to be to all powerful, and not realistically true to tactics (how does a blockade form instantly from a nation so far away without any pre-set notions before the attack is decided?)

Solutions:  

 -Perhaps the loot reward could be something like 20% instead of 40%. THe pirate class seems to get the largest boost for economic rewards. Other classes offer 5% economic rewards often... this seems like quite a difference in balance... 

-The Turtle Class deserves to match the pirate class... Perhaps giving the turtle class a boost to possible escape a war through a dice roll for some kind of evaision? 

-Exodus Option: If being attacked by pirates an exodus option could be used. Perhaps by investing in this as a national project, any nation can move to a whole new area (same continent probably) and escape a war. Immediately ends war and moves nation to beige bloc for some amount of turns. 

 

3. Bounties but no request for help?

-When under attack it seems very difficult to recruit allies, other than the hopes of an alliance.

Solution:

- bounties are a great offensive and retributive feature as an incentive to attack certain targets that may grow too powerful otherwise. Yet, for a nation under attack with money to spare, surely there can be a 'request help' feature? It can have a cash reward provided by the attacked nation. There could be a whole page dedicated to nations under attack that are requesting help. Perhaps by accepting a request for help a new war tag could be added denoting the attack on the attacking nation is in aid and that if the attacking nation resigns from the war that the "request for help" attack can also end. Like a truce all around feature if the attack is ended.

 

4. Defensive Land.

-City infrastructure is easily damaged, many civilians are killed during raids which further makes it hard to heal.

 

Solutions

-project to build underground banks, bunkers, and anti-tank ground features.

-Martial Law project: gives civilians the right to bear arms during war, they can defend city infrastructure. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by cpennock
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Alright so your ideal for the game, is for what seems like half of the new nations, to quit because of being attacked and plundered within their first few weeks of playing the game? That is absolutely awful woeful game design. If you treat your own personal business like that I doubt you'd ever make anything of yourself. 

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19 minutes ago, cpennock said:

Alright so your ideal for the game, is for what seems like half of the new nations, to quit because of being attacked and plundered within their first few weeks of playing the game? That is absolutely awful woeful game design. If you treat your own personal business like that I doubt you'd ever make anything of yourself. 

The thing is that if you join a proper alliance and stay active, you won't have to worry about getting raided. It's crucial for new nations to be active since their growth depends on them raiding and learning the game. But half of these players act like !@#$s when trying to join an alliance or they join some dumbass micro. That's why we keep saying 'skill issue' because you want to address a player issue by changing mechanics so that a noob doesn't get punished for being dumb. Even us bigger nations were noobs at one point and we eventually had to learn how the game works the hard way just like every other nation.

Edited by darkblade
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32 minutes ago, cpennock said:

Alright so your ideal for the game, is for what seems like half of the new nations, to quit because of being attacked and plundered within their first few weeks of playing the game? That is absolutely awful woeful game design. If you treat your own personal business like that I doubt you'd ever make anything of yourself. 

Its called politics and war, not politics and happy play time

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I don't think you guys fully read the Original Post. Joining an alliance is one option to prevent these problems but it really isn't enough, and it means independence may be virtually unattainable. For new nations the taxing from alliances can be too much to handle. Alliances also sometimes have embargoes meaning a new nation may have to handle alliance tax and in addition to that, have to buy more expensive goods because of alliance embargoes. 

 

If we have to rely on alliances to feel safe, than no nation can ever be truly independent. 

 

Yeah, so I get it. Being a new player can be tough, but it should be so tough that sooo many are discouraged or quit. That's why I propose this to balance the game. I stayed active personally, and I did strategy to maximize army and cities. Yet the amount of destruction of pirates has been so severe I don't even know if recovery is ever possible as whenever I start to get the army going again a pirate comes along and sacks me.  If pirate class only got 20% bonus, perhaps that would allow turtle nations to actually defend them selves.

 

The issue is that offensive nations are given an unfair military gain that is more prevalent than actual war. How many pirate nations are there in the history of war as compared to this game? It seems quite skewed. 

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If you take the time to look at nations made on the same date, the variance between a pirate nation and another type of nation is absolutely noticeable. Today on 3.31 I looked at nations made 1 week ago 3.24. The best pirate nation has DOUBLE the score of every single non-pirate nation made on the same day of 3.24. The Average Pirate nation is 200 score points above the average non-pirate. THIS IS NOT A SKILL ISSUE IT IS A GAME MECHANIC ISSUE. The math doesn't lie, the averages don't align, thus the Pirate class is OP as it has basically a guarantee to give a +50% bonus to score for this given period of time. If we find the average money looted for the pirates made on 3.24, the pirate nations have already made an average of $39MILLION between them, if we look at the GDP for all these nations made on 3.24, the GDP is between about $70million to $777million. So In 1 week the pirates made 5% to %56 of the ENTIRE ECONOMIC QUARTERS worth of Money!! Certainly by looking at nations for yourself and checking these facts, it can be seen that this is not really a reflection of politics and war, this is basically "Pirates: a national simulator." 

Edited by cpennock
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1. In order to survive in this game as a new player, you have to be in an alliance.
2. Your independence is choosing which alliance you support with your membership. If you want a good alliance to join, then do your research.
3. If you're getting hit by a pirate, ask your alliance to counter for you.
4. If your alliance refuses to counter for you without a good reason, then find a better alliance.
5. If raiding wasn't profitable, no one would be doing it. Plus you'll find raiders in every tier so they aren't going away.

This isn't that hard my guy. Maybe if you spent as much time asking for counters as much as you are trying to change the meta by nerfing the war mechanics greatly to appease your lack of skill, then this thread wouldn't even exist. And I don't care how unfair it is that pirates make so much money while defensive minded nations like you suck at growing. Raiding is the meta for new players and the fastest way to grow.

Edited by darkblade
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Hi Nokia here do you need an Alliance well oh boi do I have the place for you may I present to you Arrgh I'm sure they will be ecstatic to have you.

 

So join now for major stonks.

 

Use this URL for ease of access>>>> https://politicsandwar.com/alliance/id=913

Edited by Nokia Rokia
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1 hour ago, cpennock said:

You lot are all pirate focused nations! Of course you are all going to speak against this. You guys probably never had to build a nation and army without raid money! 

darkblade is on point here (and isn't even a pirate/raider, also denouncing him for disagreeing with you is just silly lol).

I've never been a pirate or a raider, and definitely grew slower early on because of that. If you want to handicap yourself like I did, that's your choice to make, but that doesn't mean that more effective playstyles should be nerfed. Fortune favours the bold, as they say! Despite choosing that path, though, I didn't deal with things like people raiding me, as I was in an alliance that would support and defend me. Find an alliance that suits your values, whether that be peace/independence or otherwise - but consider an alliance that substitutes some "independence" for optimum growth, imo, a good alliance will want you to grow as effectively as possible.

I will say as a former neutral that generally, in a game focused around politics & war, pixel-huggers are going to have a bad time. 😛

Edited by Kurdanak
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4 hours ago, cpennock said:

This is your idea of politics? Your knight can't even spell! 

You lot are all pirate focused nations! Of course you are all going to speak against this. You guys probably never had to build a nation and army without raid money! 

Just being a raider myself, I can confirm that, even before being that high-scored, it's certainly the best way to get money and resources in this game. I'd likely only have perhaps half my cities or so if I couldn't raid for resources — it is the most helpful thing for me to do for my nation. 

You have to be in a good alliance, and I can also confirm this: I've been in several alliances before. Alliance embargoes and restrictions really don't impact new players all that much, and, on top of that: just as a raider, alliance-less nations are easy targets, because nobody can defend them. So, yes, you certainly should join a good alliance.

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Hello. I don't know what to put here right now.

I hope you're having a lovely day : )

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The fact that the only proposed solution is to join an alliance makes me feel like it's not quite right. Sure these alliance propositions are good, and I am in an alliance for the moment, but games are usually better when there are multiple options. Thats why I like an idea that's like bounties but are 'requests for help' that way a nation can stay on the fly better and call in for help if things go wrong. 

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It's been a while since I've been on here, but I'll go through your post line by line. While I agree with the posters above, I'll try to explain why here. I say this to explain our reasoning, hoping this helps. 

On 3/29/2023 at 2:09 PM, cpennock said:

I am a new player to this game. 

Within the first month I have been nuked, struck by missals, and raided. 

There's learning curves to any game, but this is more than a learning curve.

Turtle nations really can't realistically be comparable to Pirate nations that started at the same time. The difference is actually quite ridiculous. If you take the time to look at nations made on the same date, the variance between a pirate nation and another type of nation is absolutely noticeable.

Certainly by looking at nations for yourself and checking these facts, it can be seen that this is not really a reflection of politics and war, this is basically "Pirates: a national simulator." 

1. An attacker should not be able to blockade a nation on the initial attack

2. The Pirate Class is Over Powered. 

     -I carefully monitored my peers upon starting. I noticed that the pirate classes quickly got absurd amounts of money that allowed them to progress at unfair rates as compared to the peers that were peacefully economically minded. This creates a huge disadvantage as the economic nations have a small army and less money than the pirates that have loads of money and a giant army. I noticed many peaceful nations quit in failure, which further fuels pirates who then steal all their money once they reach inactive bloc. 

    -the amount of money pirates make is far too much to create a balance between defensively minded nations and the offensive nations. It seems like the defensive peaceful nations are constantly at the mercy of pirate overlords. There is no way to defend as a peaceful nation against pirates that have swelled an army together that is worth the entire worth of the other nations infrastructure. 

  -the only option left is to join alliances which is a whole different thing. An Alliance may or may not protect the new nation, the alliance may extort the new nation with taxes and other odds and ends. Alliances can also have embargoes making it harder for new poor nations to buy certain trades which are of economic importance. Copping out with "join my alliance bad kid." is not a reasonable solution for this problem as it can make it incredibly difficult for a new nation to grow at it's own pace or have hopes for its own independence. 

3. Bounties but no request for help?

Welcome! 

I will admit I didn't believe someone hit you with a missile, much less a nuke, until I viewed your nation's recent wars. That seems a bit odd. I remember back when those projects were considered expensive. It's still odd considering it seems counterproductive to a raid. I've been on a ~4 year hiatus from PaW, so I'll let someone else chime in if they see a reason why they would be used there. 

The learning curve is one of the reasons why we highly advise people to join an alliance. The war mechanics are more in-depth than they first appear; the advice of more experienced players in real-time (usually through Discord) is infinitely more valuable than any guide. Alliances are able to pool experienced and inexperienced players alike, creating room for learning. This isn't exclusive to the war aspect, either. They should be helping you in building your cities. I see you have since joined The Armed Peacekeepers (TAP). If they haven't reached out to help you with your city setups, join a different alliance. Let me repeat that: If TAP hasn't reached out to help you maximize your cities' profits, join a different alliance. I don't know much about TAP or TFP these days, so I don't know how their new player outreach is. They could be great for all I know, but it's worth mentioning. 

(Cut part of your reply for space because it is the same point.) This is generally only true for nations with fewer cities. Most nations join an alliance before reaching higher city counts, leading to fewer raid targets, thus fewer pirates. To my knowledge, there have only been a handful of people who reached city 20 without an alliance, and all have been raiders. (I would argue this is due to their knowledge of war and ability to wage it as the most prominent case of this had the nation constantly at war and winning more often than not.) In reality, the pirates have two revenue streams: their nation and up to 5 (6 with the appropriate project) other nations. The military maintenance is miniscule compared to the income from raiding other nations. It's basic math, really. Likewise, the maintenance from having a standing military will be miniscule compared to losing raids constantly. 

This is not true at higher city counts and in alliances. As a former head of alliance, there is plenty of alliance politics ongoing constantly, even early on in the game with fewer members and alliances. 

1. This may be partially helped by planned changes to naval warfare

2. 

-I addressed this above: multiple revenue streams. 

-Again, it's really only due to size and being alliance-less. Being able to call in backup (alliance members) if you are being raided is valuable. Being ignored by raiders due to just being in an alliance is priceless, as noted by Nyx above. 

-To be honest, I don't see how nation-level political pacts (defense pacts) would be much different than being in an alliance, minus the bonuses I mentioned above (along with city grants and memes). Alliances that don't protect their own are worthless and should be publicly shamed so raiders can deal with them. I don't know of any top 50 that don't, though. Most alliances I know of offer new nations money to build their cities and usually run progressive taxes. I remember back before the tax feature (or even the bank for that matter) was even implemented, some alliances would charge taxes of larger members just to fund younger nations. City-count cohesion is important for alliances when at war, so they are incentivized to help you build your nation. The market should have enough trading volume to negate the alliance embargo issue, unless you're in a particularly bad alliance. In addition, you have access to your alliance's market. 

3. This is actually an interesting feature I'm not opposed to, to be honest. The devs already have quite a few planned features and this is effectively negated by being in an alliance, so I don't think they should make it a high priority. I do find the concept interesting and wouldn't oppose it, though. 

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On 3/31/2023 at 6:34 PM, cpennock said:

This is your idea of politics? Your knight can't even spell! 

It's a long-running joke and meant to be spelled that way lol.

On 3/31/2023 at 6:34 PM, cpennock said:

You lot are all pirate focused nations!

I'm literally not a pirate nation and don't agree with this. My main frustration with pirates is how annoying it is to deal with their lower infra lol. A handful of things you suggested (especially the no blockading thingy) are just smooth brain and not good fixes for your supposed problem.

On 4/2/2023 at 8:28 PM, cpennock said:

but games are usually better when there are multiple options

You do have multiple options. You could totally choose to not be in an alliance, but you'll grow a lot slower and face a lot more challenges. Also, you have the choice of hundreds of alliances to try to join (each with their own characteristics, communities, personalities, etc). You have options, it's just the feasibility of the options varies.

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I understand yeah. The variety of alliances are good. The Slower Blockading is one idea. Maybe there could be more defensive projects for a nation to build. Like perhaps shore Parapets. These are common to prevent boating accidents and flooding, a nation could invest in this project and make it harder for naval blockades to occur. 

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  • cpennock changed the title to Getting Attacked Reworks (petition to alter War policy regarding Piracy Class, Initial Attack Timing, Requesting help, and Defensive National Projects)
On 4/5/2023 at 6:01 PM, cpennock said:

I understand yeah. The variety of alliances are good. The Slower Blockading is one idea. Maybe there could be more defensive projects for a nation to build. Like perhaps shore Parapets. These are common to prevent boating accidents and flooding, a nation could invest in this project and make it harder for naval blockades to occur. 

Find someone (or an alliance) with veterans that have been around for a while. I took an almost 3 year hiatus from P&W thanks to military stuff, but I came back, started from scratch, and just over 3 months later have looted almost 2 billion from inactives as well as incompetent alliances. Yet still I remain a sub 800 ns and C5 nation. As mentioned by plenty of others thus far, the current game mechanics allow for that growth so long as you make proper decisions in the group (aka alliance) you join. Any group/alliance (worth a crap) will have your six regardless. You have to do your due diligence too though. Properly militarize for the immediate circumstance, raid the plethora of inactives especially if you're in an alliance that taxes high, and stash your loot in a safe haven. Build wealth, and invest accordingly. 

Edited by Diocletian

"The happiness of the people, and the peace of the empire, and the glory of the reign are linked with the fortune of the Army."

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