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Development Team Update, January 2023.


Prefontaine
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46 minutes ago, MBaku said:

I think there should be a project after propaganda bureau that boosts daily buy and/or max troops

Perks will have some boosts to those. We can see if there needs to be more above that level afterwards. 

19 minutes ago, Ketya said:

Good update!

 

would have been even better to 

(1) boost advanced pirate Econ benefits a bit more (e.g. 1.2 multiplier instead of 1.1, and boosting other changes)

(2) increase the raws needed for those projects. Pnw trade market doesn’t come across as elastic as that post suggests where prices change that rapidly. Kinns owns the market 😂

What prices would you recommend?

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11 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Perks will have some boosts to those. We can see if there needs to be more above that level afterwards. 

What prices would you recommend?

40% or whatever is the number to make  both options to purchase up/aup similar based on today’s raw prices and food being at $140.

The quantity of raws continue to increase even after that project got disabled for inactive nations (I think this got done). The increase in raws didn’t even slow down.

It is just not raws either, money, manufactured resources, everything is going up in quantity. Frankly, I think you may want to consider things like making everything in the game more expensive (cities, projects, infra); maybe having cities and infra require raws and resources…

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Made some updates to the OP.

  1. The multiple payment options for city discount projects have been removed.
  2. As the RPC project is largely causing the raw resource imbalance, the project will be switching to something that provides new players additional money rather than resources.
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38 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Made some updates to the OP.

  1. The multiple payment options for city discount projects have been removed.
  2. As the RPC project is largely causing the raw resource imbalance, the project will be switching to something that provides new players additional money rather than resources.

Who are you and what did you do with Pre? Some nice changes. 

Will the project still be locked to those under 15 cities? 

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30 minutes ago, Sphinx said:

Who are you and what did you do with Pre? Some nice changes. 

Will the project still be locked to those under 15 cities? 

Pre has been replaced with ChatGPT.

Yes. This is a project meant to help new players. 

30 minutes ago, Johnson Boris said:

Why? 

Alex hath spoken.

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On 1/18/2023 at 3:56 PM, Prefontaine said:
  • Changes to Pirate Economy Project: Pirate Economy now provides a 5% bonus to loot from ground attacks.

 

  • New Project: Advanced Pirate Economy
    Requirements: Nation has won or lost 100 combined wars.
    Requirements: Nation has Pirate Economy
    Cost: $50,000,000
    Aluminum: 20,000
    Ammo: 40,000
    Gas: 20,000  
    Effect: Nation has an additional offensive war slot. Nation gains 5% more loot from ground attacks. Nation gains 1.1x modifier to their loot (edit from feedback) from defeating a nation and the defeated nations alliance bank.

Love this! Just for clarity, would this mean a total of 7 offensive slots if I buy both projects?

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Just now, RobinHood said:

Love this! Just for clarity, would this mean a total of 7 offensive slots if I buy both projects?

Correct, you could have 10 active wars. We will likely have a new achievement for that as well. Since the acronym for the project is APE, might as well call it APE Mode.

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3 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

Made some updates to the OP.

  1. The multiple payment options for city discount projects have been removed.
  2. As the RPC project is largely causing the raw resource imbalance, the project will be switching to something that provides new players additional money rather than resources.

Would it scale based on the number of cities you have like RPC?

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On 1/18/2023 at 10:56 AM, Prefontaine said:

Change to Resource Production Center. 
Renamed -> Treasury Department
Effect: Daily Log In Bonus increased by $500,000. If there is any daily log in streak above 1, Daily Log In Bonus increased by $1,000,000. This amount is separate from any other modifiers. 

I can't really agree with this change at all. It's incredibly frustrating to essentially strip RPC from something that is vital for low-tier growth to what is essentially a toothless project. There are quite a few issues here.

#1 - No City Cap
Simply, RPC was created as a project for low tier nations. It is ineffective after you get City 16, so the benefits stop there. How it has been framed, at least here, is that there is no city cap, so any nations will have their daily log-in bonus tripled after they hit the 60 day mark and the daily log-in bonus is decreased to $500k. This essentially removes one of the most vital tools small nations have - RPC, where they can grow and catch up with people that found the game before they did, for whatever reason.

#2 - Nerfing the Low Tier
The other major issue is that this essentially kills the reason behind RPC - giving people a way to get more stuff. $1m is $1m, but if it is $1m for every nation logging in then the only different is that the small nation gets a larger percentage of their revenue than the large nation. This pushes raiding back to pre-RPC, essentially getting rid of any benefits this project gave smaller nations.
I think I'll also note here that in this poll, a plurality of people wanted to have RPC turn off at over 5 days (32%), and a pretty sizeable majority said at least 3 days (74%). So having this bonus "turn off" after 1 day is against what most of the game wanted, making raiding even worse.

#3 - Wartime
A third thing this does that is decidedly not limited to the low tier is simply that it makes blockades even worse. With $1.5m/day guaranteed, the benefit of blockading is mostly eliminated - the point of blockades is to block cash flow, so it doesn't follow to implement something that basically tells blockades that they're not useful because people can pump a decent amount of cash and use that to continue doing attacks.

#4 - Inflation
Of course, this tripling of the login bonus for high tier nations also allows for inflation, which makes it harder for those who can't get money as easily - low tier nations - to get resources to grow. Sure, this can bring up raw prices...but it'll bring up the rest of the prices and make everything more frustrating. Introducing this game-wide ensures this.

 

so TLDR this change just decides to screw over the low tier even further and kills their best shot at growing. I would not be opposed to a cash benefit that helps only the low tier - I understand the stated issue of RPC - but as it stands this only serves to kill RPC and revert raiding back to what it was 2 years ago. Moreover, it makes blockades even worse, and also is pretty likely to result in inflation, making it even harder for the low tier to adequately grow and play this game at a higher level.

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1 minute ago, Solomon Ben-David said:

#4 - Inflation
Of course, this tripling of the login bonus for high tier nations also allows for inflation, which makes it harder for those who can't get money as easily - low tier nations - to get resources to grow. Sure, this can bring up raw prices...but it'll bring up the rest of the prices and make everything more frustrating. Introducing this game-wide ensures this.

(This isn't directed at you specifically, more so generally at people who may be against this change due to potential inflation). I don't believe the effect of introducing more money into the game's economy would have the same drastic results as the effect that RPC has had. Yes, resources would get more expensive, but that's a good thing considering that RPC has basically killed low-mid tier growth by reducing the viability of producing every resource that isn't food. Making resources more expensive would make what the low-mid tier produces actually matters. Here's two charts below from August of 2022 and this week for reference. 

August 2022

Screenshot_20220818-185807.jpg.517fcbff11360fa5bd19d55bd045a155.jpg

 

January 2023

image.png

 

 

And secondly, cities serve as a huge unlimited cash sink to take money out of the game's economy. There is no project equivalent of cities since you can only buy one project, and most of the damage dealt within a war destroys cash rather than resources since infrastructure becomes exponentially more expensive. Therefore, even if this project was introduced, I'd say we'd never reach the that point where money becomes worthless like how resources have been worthless (relatively speaking, they aren't completely worthless), because people will simply buy more cities and increase the amount of money being taken out of the game's economy. 

 

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1 hour ago, Solomon Ben-David said:

#1 - No City Cap
Simply, RPC was created as a project for low tier nations. It is ineffective after you get City 16, so the benefits stop there. How it has been framed, at least here, is that there is no city cap, so any nations will have their daily log-in bonus tripled after they hit the 60 day mark and the daily log-in bonus is decreased to $500k. This essentially removes one of the most vital tools small nations have - RPC, where they can grow and catch up with people that found the game before they did, for whatever reason.

Pre clarified a few responses above that it will still be locked to below c16.

Federation of Knox

Enlightened of Chaos, Event Horizon

QA Team and API Team

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32 minutes ago, Solomon Ben-David said:

I can't really agree with this change at all. It's incredibly frustrating to essentially strip RPC from something that is vital for low-tier growth to what is essentially a toothless project. There are quite a few issues here.

#1 - No City Cap

#2 - Nerfing the Low Tier
I think I'll also note here that in this poll, a plurality of people wanted to have RPC turn off at over 5 days (32%), and a pretty sizeable majority said at least 3 days (74%). So having this bonus "turn off" after 1 day is against what most of the game wanted, making raiding even worse.

#3 - Wartime
A third thing this does that is decidedly not limited to the low tier is simply that it makes blockades even worse. With $1.5m/day guaranteed, the benefit of blockading is mostly eliminated - the point of blockades is to block cash flow, so it doesn't follow to implement something that basically tells blockades that they're not useful because people can pump a decent amount of cash and use that to continue doing attacks.

#4 - Inflation

Design team member here. Feedback noted and echoed largely. I think Pre spoke prematurely, so I will speak prematurely back :) 

1. I will make sure the city cap stays. I think that was the intention, but it may have been missed in the edit. 

2, 3. There's a chance the details will be edited, but the switch from resources to cash will happen. I suspect the bolded part will be the mechanic instead of buffing login bonus. Village reminded us that the login bonus is getting buffed substantially anyways.
4. See goober's post

Hey Krampus, the signature edit is under account settings. Actually, here's the link.

https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/settings/signature/

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It will still have the City cap where it turns off. This is still meant for new players. 500k-1M extra a day is actually more than the RPC gave. This actually buffs the project. It will not scale with city count, same amount to everyone. 

Edited by Prefontaine
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1 hour ago, Prefontaine said:

It will still have the City cap where it turns off. This is still meant for new players. 500k-1M extra a day is actually more than the RPC gave. This actually buffs the project. It will not scale with city count, same amount to everyone. 

Gotcha, would appreciate the clarification in the post then since it was unclear there. :v

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12 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

Pre has been replaced with ChatGPT.

Yes. This is a project meant to help new players. 

Alex hath spoken.

About time Pre starting making sense.. speaking of which Pre-bot can you apologise for raiding me in 2016? ;v 

Also, in that case I think the project should be renamed. Treasure Department should be reserved for IMO a more substantial econ project. 

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I've run some numbers on the RPC and the effects it will have on total amount of raws in the game. Currently there are 1430 people that are not in vm, have been active in the last week and are 15 cities or less. This below is the production for each raw based on continent and city count, the disparity between the production of each raw being the result of an uneven distribution of people picking continents. 

 image.png.070ba85f6e4ea167fb71bce4e2b94ab8.png

This shows the total average production and the percent of the surplus RPC represents during the day following the update to RPC. This does not account for buying projects or nations deleting, just a general picture into how much of each resource is introduced into the game 

image.png.b06778b2a307869e3caac9b2a6d12474.png

Overall this would be a good change, as money has real sinks, that being cities. While without little exception all raws consistently grow in amount with no end and devaluing the price of raws which no one is using or needing as indicative by the prices the time following the implementation of RPC. Money on the other hand during the same period of time lost in amount by 10 billion a day, obviously being much more sinkable that any of the raws. 

On an off tangent though, while this change will be beneficial for raws, there will continue to be continue oversupply of raws in the game. Since 3/1/2022, when RPC was introduced as an example, they was 2.5k coal per nation currently there is 13.9k per person. This will need to be remedied otherwise there will be far reaching consequences into other resources and ways to produce, with raws being worth considerably less in the past you'll see builds moving towards manus and commerce, manus will fall in value over time, not only because there isn't a large amount used but because switching from building some raws and manus to just making manus will be more profitable. It's a slow death of over abundance and the lessening of consequences of war as warring does not seem to ever reduce the massive warchests of every large alliance.

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3 hours ago, Morgan Stanley said:

I've run some numbers on the RPC and the effects it will have on total amount of raws in the game. Currently there are 1430 people that are not in vm, have been active in the last week and are 15 cities or less. This below is the production for each raw based on continent and city count, the disparity between the production of each raw being the result of an uneven distribution of people picking continents. 

 image.png.070ba85f6e4ea167fb71bce4e2b94ab8.png

This shows the total average production and the percent of the surplus RPC represents during the day following the update to RPC. This does not account for buying projects or nations deleting, just a general picture into how much of each resource is introduced into the game 

image.png.b06778b2a307869e3caac9b2a6d12474.png

Overall this would be a good change, as money has real sinks, that being cities. While without little exception all raws consistently grow in amount with no end and devaluing the price of raws which no one is using or needing as indicative by the prices the time following the implementation of RPC. Money on the other hand during the same period of time lost in amount by 10 billion a day, obviously being much more sinkable that any of the raws. 

On an off tangent though, while this change will be beneficial for raws, there will continue to be continue oversupply of raws in the game. Since 3/1/2022, when RPC was introduced as an example, they was 2.5k coal per nation currently there is 13.9k per person. This will need to be remedied otherwise there will be far reaching consequences into other resources and ways to produce, with raws being worth considerably less in the past you'll see builds moving towards manus and commerce, manus will fall in value over time, not only because there isn't a large amount used but because switching from building some raws and manus to just making manus will be more profitable. It's a slow death of over abundance and the lessening of consequences of war as warring does not seem to ever reduce the massive warchests of every large alliance.

I basically agree with all of this.
In general adding more demand for everything is always good (you can always add more supply if needed), it was also my prefered way of solving this issue but it was not to be. 

I do not think the game would be waiting / excited for a lot of drastic measures in descreasing raws (think losing a percentage of raws every turn, making infrastructure cost resources in upkeep etc..). Do you have any interesting suggestions on how to do so?

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I'm not sure I like the rule change for Spies.  Couldn't the spy count be a range instead of the exact number?  For example, if I have 30 spies, my opponent would see a range of 25 to 35 spies. Maybe the spy odds could also be a range of percentages.

After all, spies are supposed to be covert. To me, it doesn't make sense for everyone to be able to see the EXACT number of spies that another nation has.

 

 

Edited by Vaslov
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9 hours ago, Vaslov said:

I'm not sure I like the rule change for Spies.  Couldn't the spy count be a range instead of the exact number?  For example, if I have 30 spies, my opponent would see a range of 25 to 35 spies. Maybe the spy odds could also be a range of percentages.

After all, spies are supposed to be covert. To me, it doesn't make sense for everyone to be able to see the EXACT number of spies that another nation has.

 

 

People have been able to get exact spy counts by using the spy odds API for years now. The main reason spies are becoming public is to stop people from spamming the API and slowing down the website during war.

Edited by darkblade
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On 1/31/2023 at 9:00 PM, Morgan Stanley said:

I've run some numbers on the RPC and the effects it will have on total amount of raws in the game. Currently there are 1430 people that are not in vm, have been active in the last week and are 15 cities or less. This below is the production for each raw based on continent and city count, the disparity between the production of each raw being the result of an uneven distribution of people picking continents. 

 image.png.070ba85f6e4ea167fb71bce4e2b94ab8.png

This shows the total average production and the percent of the surplus RPC represents during the day following the update to RPC. This does not account for buying projects or nations deleting, just a general picture into how much of each resource is introduced into the game 

image.png.b06778b2a307869e3caac9b2a6d12474.png

Overall this would be a good change, as money has real sinks, that being cities. While without little exception all raws consistently grow in amount with no end and devaluing the price of raws which no one is using or needing as indicative by the prices the time following the implementation of RPC. Money on the other hand during the same period of time lost in amount by 10 billion a day, obviously being much more sinkable that any of the raws. 

On an off tangent though, while this change will be beneficial for raws, there will continue to be continue oversupply of raws in the game. Since 3/1/2022, when RPC was introduced as an example, they was 2.5k coal per nation currently there is 13.9k per person. This will need to be remedied otherwise there will be far reaching consequences into other resources and ways to produce, with raws being worth considerably less in the past you'll see builds moving towards manus and commerce, manus will fall in value over time, not only because there isn't a large amount used but because switching from building some raws and manus to just making manus will be more profitable. It's a slow death of over abundance and the lessening of consequences of war as warring does not seem to ever reduce the massive warchests of every large alliance.

A+ post

I've personally wanted to see the cost of war increased. I think the change for tanks from 1 steel down to 0.5 was a mistake. Should be reverted and other changes made to reduce the glut of resources in the game currently. 

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You can simply make cities cost money and raws. Probably the easiest change to execute (coding-wise), doesn’t unnecessarily complicate the game and doesn’t really favor a tier over the other. If it doesn’t work, easy enough to revert too.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/18/2023 at 5:15 PM, Monti said:

I think sometime around March. Village is hard at work 😀

Village do be working hard. We should all be grateful for him.

 

@Village ❤️

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Federation of Knox

Enlightened of Chaos, Event Horizon

QA Team and API Team

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