Developer Popular Post Village Posted October 30, 2022 Developer Popular Post Share Posted October 30, 2022 CLARIFICATION: THIS MODIFIER ONLY APPLIES FOR NATIONS HITTING TARGETS THAT THEY ARE ONLY ABLE TO HIT DUE TO THE EXPANDED INACTIVE RANGE CHANGES PROPOSED IN THE PREVIOUS THREADS. THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ANYONE YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO HIT WITHIN YOUR NORMAL WAR RANGE. Hey everyone, we're back with the (hopefully) final new player changes thread! As mentioned in the last thread (found here! https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/topic/33757-game-development-discussion-second-new-player-thread/) we promised a loot modifier to help solve concerns about loot drying up and lack of an incentive to move on from raiding. To that end, the promised loot modifier is a piecewise function using the following formula (sorry about the formatting) mod = {3, 1 <= x < 3; 1.59 + (0.896^x)/0.5, 3 <= x <= 15} loot = (normal_loot_for_current_military / city_count) * mod Here's a Desmos link to view it as well: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/5kmvij4mki In essence, this boils down to the nation gaining the amount of loot corresponding to someone with maxed units at `mod` city count. I.e. a C10 has a modifier of 2.21, so when the C10 has max military they will gain the amount of loot of an equivalent C2.21. The idea here, is that loot at all levels is equalized down to a lower level (the C2-3 loot range), meaning loot will not dry up on a nation much, if at all, faster than normal. This also provides an incentive to raid less as city counts go up, since the modifier gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to C15 (and the associated upkeep costs will increase), this will reduce raiding income as the nation's regular income increases, making them less reliant on this feature and better adjusted to the main game as a whole. Poll Results As per the polls given in the last post, nations coming out of VM will have 24 hours (12 turns) of beige, and nations will be considered inactive for the purposes of the raiding modifier after 14 days of inactivity. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, feedback, ideas, or anything at all related to this please let us know below. We love feedback and are working hard to ensure concerns are resolved and feedback is taken into account throughout this process. Thank you guys so much for reading and providing feedback, have a wonderful day! DISCLAIMER: The proposal outlined above and in the previous posts is NOT final, this is the current modified state after numerous community discussions and polls, we're still looking for feedback to refine and improve it. If nothing needs to be addressed we will likely be moving forward with the proposal as it stands, if not there will be as many more posts as needed to refine this to be the best it possibly can be. P.S. I'm going to sleep soon so will respond to things in the morning 15 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leonissenbaum Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 Before running the numbers on this, I'm wondering what exactly this loot modifier affects? Does it just affect ground attack loot, or does it also affect beige loot? if it also affects beige loot, then how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewan Demontay Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) Perhaps it could instead end at 1.00 even at C15? 1.00 would be the same loot rate as it is today, applied to all C16s and up. Edited October 30, 2022 by Rewan Demontay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Village Posted October 30, 2022 Author Developer Share Posted October 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, leonissenbaum said: Before running the numbers on this, I'm wondering what exactly this loot modifier affects? Does it just affect ground attack loot, or does it also affect beige loot? if it also affects beige loot, then how? I don't think we were planning on it affecting beige loot, just ground attack loot and infrastructure damage since they're the one's proportional to city size, a modifier for beige loot would be good though, maybe mod / 3? 2 minutes ago, Rewan Demontay said: Perhaps it could instead end at 1.00 even at C15? 1.00 would be the same loot rate as it is today, applied to all C16s and up. 1.00 would mean it ends at the loot a C1 would get, the graph isn't representative of a straight modifier on loot, rather the city count of loot the nation would receive when declaring on an inactive nation they would otherwise not be able to declare on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Zim Posted October 30, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted October 30, 2022 10 hours ago, Village said: In essence, this boils down to the nation gaining the amount of loot corresponding to someone with maxed units at `mod` city count. I.e. a C10 has a modifier of 2.21, so when the C10 has max military they will gain the amount of loot of an equivalent C2.21. The idea here, is that loot at all levels is equalized down to a lower level (the C2-3 loot range), meaning loot will not dry up on a nation much, if at all, faster than normal. This also provides an incentive to raid less as city counts go up, since the modifier gets smaller and smaller the closer you get to C15 (and the associated upkeep costs will increase), this will reduce raiding income as the nation's regular income increases, making them less reliant on this feature and better adjusted to the main game as a whole. Any reason in particularly, for why you pushing your playstyle as the only acceptable way to play the game? Because that what it sounds like, that your group is activilty trying to kill high tier raiding, because you don't play it, and would be more convient for you to not have it around, so you can build up to 3000 infra with the most worry, being a insulted guy on the market, that you undercut. Raiding income is already crippled compared to farming in the higher tiers. The problem should be to make raiding more comparable, not less. To encourge different playstyles, so you can maitain a larger playerbase, and a higher player engagement, and inovation. Discouraging the most active part of casual player base, aren't going to be a benefit to the game. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 11 hours ago, Village said: This also provides an incentive to raid less as city counts go up 11 hours ago, Village said: making them less reliant on this feature and better adjusted to the main game as a whole. If you're at a loss as to "wHy dO mEaN oWf posters always downvote us" You guys talked recently about introducing an inactivity modifier allowing nations of all sizes to raid inactive nations - thereby allowing higher city counts to participate more if they wanted to be raiders. Then Keegoz posted a thread 25 days ago that got maybe 0.001% of playerbase to respond - without any clear indication as to which direction they really preferred the game to go. 26 people voted no to any beige timers for VMers, 37 voted yes to the 24 hrs. There are 10,000 nations that play this game. This thread is now talking about "wrapping up raiding" by c15 and adjusting raiders into the "main game"... Who asked for raiding to be nerfed (again)? What data was this decision made with other than a random whim? Lmfao. I wonder how many unpopular changes a development team can really pump out before people say screw it and just leave the game. I'd highly advise you start putting polls into the actual game itself so players can actually see and interact with the feedback threads/polls. You guys are going to kill PnW by making constant unpopular changes that don't even address a real gameplay issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penpiko Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Village said: As mentioned in the last thread (found here! https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/topic/33757-game-development-discussion-second-new-player-thread/) we promised a loot modifier to help solve concerns about loot drying up and lack of an incentive to move on from raiding. Wait I'm confused here, would this modifier only apply to the thing you proposed previously where anyone <=c15 could raid nations when they were x days inactive? Or is this just a blanket massive nerf on raiding? If it's the former I can kind of see merit to it (provided that previously proposed change works out lol), don't want a c15 running 2k infra farming while making 2M per ground battle on 6 wars. If it's the latter I think that's seriously terrible, raiding is the only thing that makes the game at least slightly dynamic in peace time, trying to streamline the game experience to farming and the occasional alliance war every 3-6 months will just make things more stale for the average player and kill a part of the playerbase for no real reason. Could definitely be clarified in the original post either way imo that massively changes the implications of this change. Edited October 30, 2022 by penpiko fixed something :galaxybrain: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Village Posted October 30, 2022 Author Developer Share Posted October 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Zim said: Any reason in particularly, for why you pushing your playstyle as the only acceptable way to play the game? Because that what it sounds like, that your group is activilty trying to kill high tier raiding, because you don't play it, and would be more convient for you to not have it around, so you can build up to 3000 infra with the most worry, being a insulted guy on the market, that you undercut. Raiding income is already crippled compared to farming in the higher tiers. The problem should be to make raiding more comparable, not less. To encourge different playstyles, so you can maitain a larger playerbase, and a higher player engagement, and inovation. Discouraging the most active part of casual player base, aren't going to be a benefit to the game. @ZimHigh tier raiding isn't being killed. The context for this post is in the previous threads and I neglected to summarize it here (sorry). In essence, this modifier ONLY applies to when people hit targets they are only able to hit due to the inactive nations war range thing we've discussed previously. The point of the modifier is to equalize income and ensure that a C15 isn't taking 5x the money out of a C3 and thereby completely exhausting the target and making low tier raiding pointless. 42 minutes ago, Marika said: If you're at a loss as to "wHy dO mEaN oWf posters always downvote us" You guys talked recently about introducing an inactivity modifier allowing nations of all sizes to raid inactive nations - thereby allowing higher city counts to participate more if they wanted to be raiders. Then Keegoz posted a thread 25 days ago that got maybe 0.001% of playerbase to respond - without any clear indication as to which direction they really preferred the game to go. 26 people voted no to any beige timers for VMers, 37 voted yes to the 24 hrs. There are 10,000 nations that play this game. This thread is now talking about "wrapping up raiding" by c15 and adjusting raiders into the "main game"... Who asked for raiding to be nerfed (again)? What data was this decision made with other than a random whim? Lmfao. I wonder how many unpopular changes a development team can really pump out before people say screw it and just leave the game. I'd highly advise you start putting polls into the actual game itself so players can actually see and interact with the feedback threads/polls. You guys are going to kill PnW by making constant unpopular changes that don't even address a real gameplay issue. Please read the clarification above, the entire existence of this post is based on hours of feedback and discussions with raiders in the community as we try to refine the changes and see if they're actually going to happen. As it stands right now, inactive nations under C15 can only be raided by other nations under C15 and they will have the above loot modifier in order to prevent loot exhaustion and a C15 taking 5x the money out of a C3 than a C3, thereby rending low tier raiding useless. The entire point of the modifier is to prevent that as well as gradually reduce raiding income to encourage people to move into a more farming-centric playstyle rather than raiding all the time. This isn't a nerf to raiding, this is a massive buff. I would love to put polls in the main game but as it stands that's not a game feature, so I'm stuck putting things on the forums and getting a minimal response. I'm trying my best to put forward changes that I think will be beneficial and get as much feedback as possible to fix them or just downright don't do them. As it stands, there's been a number of concerns brought up, and Keegoz outlined the big categories in the last post, all of which we've been working to solve with ideas from the community. 32 minutes ago, penpiko said: Wait I'm confused here, would this modifier only apply to the thing you proposed previously where anyone <=c15 could raid nations when they were x days inactive? Or is this just a blanket massive nerf on raiding? If it's the former I can kind of see merit to it (provided that previously proposed change works out lol), don't want a c15 running 2k infra farming while making 2M per ground battle on 6 wars. If it's the latter I think that's seriously terrible, raiding is the only thing that makes the game at least slightly dynamic in peace time, trying to streamline the game experience to farming and the occasional alliance war every 3-6 months will just make things more stale for the average player and kill a part of the playerbase for no real reason. Could definitely be clarified in the original post either way imo that massively changes the implications of this change. Yes exactly, it'd only apply to the inactive raiding below C15. I would NEVER do a blanket nerf to raiding like that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 The clarification changed this from a downvote to an upvote. lmao 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zim Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Village said: Oh thank god Village, sorry about freaking out so much. Emotional time at the moment, and well us pirates have normally have to deal with fairly consitent raiding nerf since the Purple Spy War, with just a few updates that benefits us, which is often just lessening of a prior nerf. And then when it started to look up, with some good updates for us over the last year, i just read the line: " this will reduce raiding income as the nation's regular income increases, making them less reliant on this feature and better adjusted to the main game as a whole." And well without the prior context it dosen't come of doing us any favours. Edited October 30, 2022 by Zim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 I agree that without the context this nerf would have been god awful but with context the change is fine. Quote Why are you reading this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalachthefirst Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 As long as this doesn't massively nerf high tier raiding during peace time, I am in favour of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Village Posted October 30, 2022 Author Developer Share Posted October 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Zim said: Oh thank god Village, sorry about freaking out so much. Emotional time at the moment, and well us pirates have normally have to deal with fairly consitent raiding nerf since the Purple Spy War, with just a few updates that benefits us, which is often just lessening of a prior nerf. And then when it started to look up, with some good updates for us over the last year, i just read the line: " this will reduce raiding income as the nation's regular income increases, making them less reliant on this feature and better adjusted to the main game as a whole." And well without the prior context it dosen't come of doing us any favours. No worries! Sorry I didn't make that more clear, I didn't want to give you guys a heartattack. 50 minutes ago, Kalachthefirst said: As long as this doesn't massively nerf high tier raiding during peace time, I am in favour of it Nothing in the high tier is going to change at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zevari Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Honestly it seems pretty solid overall, honestly just needs some live server testing to see how it will work out at this point. On 10/30/2022 at 2:09 PM, Village said: I don't think we were planning on it affecting beige loot, just ground attack loot and infrastructure damage since they're the one's proportional to city size, a modifier for beige loot would be good though, maybe mod / 3? I feel like the loot modifier needs to heavily affect beige, otherwise you won't really be stopping people from raiding way outside their tiers. A lot of inactives end up with a large supply of raws since those buildings will always produce (since they don't require power), hence a lot of targets are hit for that loot rather than the cash. (granted a lot of targets with high cash exist) So a somewhat similar system to the proposed GA loot should exist in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Village Posted November 2, 2022 Author Developer Share Posted November 2, 2022 On 10/31/2022 at 9:51 AM, Zevari said: I feel like the loot modifier needs to heavily affect beige, otherwise you won't really be stopping people from raiding way outside their tiers. A lot of inactives end up with a large supply of raws since those buildings will always produce (since they don't require power), hence a lot of targets are hit for that loot rather than the cash. (granted a lot of targets with high cash exist) So a somewhat similar system to the proposed GA loot should exist in my opinion. Thanks for your feedback! We're looking at a beige modifier now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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