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I got a real issue to address in this game and community


Buorhann
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In the not so distant future on a glitchy text based game
The fat and lonely lazy players who in the server played
Said that global wars really suck, and Orbis is really lame
Let's just leave the bots playing so no-one knows our shame

So then one day in his basement when Borg was super stoned
He thought that it would be awesome if the banks all got owned
When the alliances saw their banks were gone, they knew just what they would do
If you steal all of our banks then we will nuke you till you're blue

Its World War FU, Orbis is about to end
Only bots will be playing so no one can actually win
Its World War FU, I think we can conclude
We really had it coming so I guess we all get screwed
 

Edited by J Kell
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About The Author

 An early member of Roz Wei in 2015, J Kell went on to stay within the paperless world of Empyrea before signing with Soup Kitchen while scoring a record deal in 2019. J Kell went on to release multiple Orbis Top 40 hits. In 2020, J Kell took a break from Orbis. He's back.

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18 hours ago, Nyx said:

Seriously, though, even though I'm a nation that's never really been involved with offshores because every alliance I've had a gov position in disbanded within a week (that would be three alliances, two of which I founded)

You realize this doesn't help your case, right? right?

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Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines
Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order

 

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11 hours ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

Frankly, if you can't manage to run your own offshore, I think the problem is deeper in that you can't manage to run your own alliance to begin with.

 

/thread

 

This is why "micro moment" is a slur which should be used with extreme prejudice.

In paradisum deducant te Angeli; in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres, et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Ierusalem.
Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cüm Lazaro quondam paupere æternam habeas requiem.

 

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55 minutes ago, Zed said:

 

/thread

 

This is why "micro moment" is a slur which should be used with extreme prejudice.

I disagree tbh. Having a trusted offshore is an asset.

It's just elitism to say you need your own to be good.

 

Especially in the age of most AA's having like 2 working gov members tops.

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Trust in Borg. Love Borg. Become Borg.

Begone for doubting the collective.

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Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines
Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order

 

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12 hours ago, Buorhann said:

You need your own to be competent.

Thats not elitism, that’s a fact.  That’s part of being a responsible, active alliance.

 

59 alliances are offshoring with this player.  59.

I don't disagree with your exact point -- If you're not large enough to entertain having your own offshore and you don't have a trusted government team then I highly urge any micro to look into alternative options (mergers, disbandment, protectorates, etc).

 

The issue I take, and the elitism I call out, is the absolute notion that any given thing defines a competent alliance. There is a metric tonne of gatekeeping in the PnW community surrounding the term "competent" given that this is a text-based browser game. I've said it before and I'll say it again: You can take any given group of active people and turn them into a "competent" alliance through basic organizational skills.

 

The gatekeeping often leads to suppressed new alliances or random wars against existing alliances for no reason other than perceived competence. Often, these perceptions are warranted but I think it detracts from the game to constantly harp about getting good or outright disbanding -- the political game very clearly suffers from a lack of participation especially outside the top 10. Most people avoid the forums due to toxicity, they avoid places like RON due to toxicity, etc. This community needs to be open to allow for engagement rather than rabidly attacking any perceived weakness in my opinion.

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I love me some Borg, but Buoro is not wrong here.

Frankly I am amazed at how many people trust other people not allied to them in this game.

I trust my guys enough to share Opsec stuff with them, but I only actually trust 2 people with the grumpy bank, and those are 2 people I have been playing with for over 10 years.

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@Buorhann i understand your point, and to some extent, agree with it, but you have to keep in mind a majority of the 59 alliances offshoring with Borg are micros, who are either pirate alliances who have no reservations about exposing their bank or offshoring with a non-alliance entity, or just micro’s who can’t even take care of themselves let alone offshore, there’s probably a few “businesses” offshoring as well. For such alliances, it might even make sense to offshore with Borg.

But if an actual major alliance offshores with any foreign entity, as long as they offshore with a non alliance solution, that’s just a certified micro moment. Blaming borg for that, though, is short sighted or even delusional.

About your point on access given to Locutus: The bot is a public bot, so you can check out the source code as you wish. Of course, that doesn’t mean that code is what Borg is running, but despite that, your concerns about the data it has access to aren’t really limited to him.

Here is what data any bot can access via discord api: 1) Member status data (when a member changes their status, eg from offline to busy,away, etc), 2) new messages/interactions in channels, 3) name of the channels, channel message history, 4) server data (date created, member count, etc), 5) server events (channel/category/thread/etc created/deleted). There is probably some I’m forgetting

Can you log all of this? Yes. Does he? I doubt that, since most of it isn’t terribly useful

Edited by Krampus
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17 hours ago, Marika said:

I disagree tbh. Having a trusted offshore is an asset.

It's just elitism to say you need your own to be good.

 

Especially in the age of most AA's having like 2 working gov members tops.

 

4 hours ago, Marika said:

I don't disagree with your exact point -- If you're not large enough to entertain having your own offshore and you don't have a trusted government team then I highly urge any micro to look into alternative options (mergers, disbandment, protectorates, etc).

 

The issue I take, and the elitism I call out, is the absolute notion that any given thing defines a competent alliance. There is a metric tonne of gatekeeping in the PnW community surrounding the term "competent" given that this is a text-based browser game. I've said it before and I'll say it again: You can take any given group of active people and turn them into a "competent" alliance through basic organizational skills.

 

The gatekeeping often leads to suppressed new alliances or random wars against existing alliances for no reason other than perceived competence. Often, these perceptions are warranted but I think it detracts from the game to constantly harp about getting good or outright disbanding -- the political game very clearly suffers from a lack of participation especially outside the top 10. Most people avoid the forums due to toxicity, they avoid places like RON due to toxicity, etc. This community needs to be open to allow for engagement rather than rabidly attacking any perceived weakness in my opinion.

 

My curmudgeonly opinion is that there should be more actively relevant alliances on the world scene. Micros usually do not contribute to this. Having 2 working gov members tops is, frankly, a sorry state for most relevant alliances. If you do not have a trusted government team, then that is a complete organizational failure.

You could scoop up a bunch of these micro type alliances, merge them into each other (and that does not have to be all together, you could make a few decent alliances out of that), and be much more able to accomplish that. Sure, we do not have the playerbase now to have thousand or even five-hundred player alliances without resorting to illegally giving away Korean comics, and that is totally fine. But we have smaller blocs and "mid-level" alliances, and that is good. Not everyone is going to play in a Top 10 alliance. That would be a pretty limiting game. We are, however, too big of a game for randos to just gather up five people and try to have an alliance without knowing what they are doing.

I completely agree that you can taken any given group of active people and turn then into a "competent" alliance through basic organizational skills. The major alliances can and should take interest in this, and I have been involved in those projects before.

 

 

1 hour ago, Krampus said:

@Buorhann i understand your point, and to some extent, agree with it, but you have to keep in mind a majority of the 59 alliances offshoring with Borg are micros, who are either pirate alliances who have no reservations about exposing their bank or offshoring with a non-alliance entity, or just micro’s who can’t even take care of themselves let alone offshore, there’s probably a few “businesses” offshoring as well. For such alliances, it might even make sense to offshore with Borg.

But if an actual major alliance offshores with any foreign entity, as long as they offshore with a non alliance solution, that’s just a certified micro moment. Blaming borg for that, though, is short sighted or even delusional.

 

First paragraph got me to look through the list of alliances. Accounting for obvious offshores or single-player projects, it is a pretty sad list once you start getting into the triple digits. I wish that could get cleaned up a good bit. And as for micros who cannot take care of it themselves, that goes to my points above.

Second paragraph is cosigned by yours truly.

 

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In paradisum deducant te Angeli; in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres, et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Ierusalem.
Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cüm Lazaro quondam paupere æternam habeas requiem.

 

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5 hours ago, Krampus said:

Here is what data any bot can access via discord api: 1) Member status data (when a member changes their status, eg from offline to busy,away, etc), 2) new messages/interactions in channels, 3) name of the channels, channel message history, 4) server data (date created, member count, etc), 5) server events (channel/category/thread/etc created/deleted). There is probably some I’m forgetting

This is what he told me.

borg — 
RE: using bots to leak opsec, Locutus does not require, and currently is not requesting message access. It can only parse messages which mention the bot, or are sent by the bot.

 

That's from the creator of the bot.

I also don't blame borg for people choosing to offshore with him, I blame the idiots who make that decision.

Edited by Buorhann
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5 hours ago, Zed said:

I completely agree that you can taken any given group of active people and turn then into a "competent" alliance through basic organizational skills. The major alliances can and should take interest in this, and I have been involved in those projects before.

This is something I've looked at for a while - multitudes of micros have numbers but they don't have the drive, experience, perhaps even competence (or is that just derivative from experience? argument to be made there) to successfully run and/or turn a micro alliance into a big player, or even mid sized. Turning an alliance into something half decent is more of a cultural thing and the mentality - 'micro moments' only happen because of a mentality issue.

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10 minutes ago, Tartarus said:

This is something I've looked at for a while - multitudes of micros have numbers but they don't have the drive, experience, perhaps even competence (or is that just derivative from experience? argument to be made there) to successfully run and/or turn a micro alliance into a big player, or even mid sized. Turning an alliance into something half decent is more of a cultural thing and the mentality - 'micro moments' only happen because of a mentality issue.

I don't think competence is a derivative of experience. It's the other way around since you can have all of the experience in the world but if you don't know how to evaluate it and grow from it then you will never succeed.

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Humans cannot create anything out of nothingness. Humans cannot accomplish anything without holding onto something. After all, humans are not gods.

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Why does every discussion about banks, offshoring, or bots always get to a point where people start arguing that micros are the problematic and just mess up the game for the rest of the community? If they just disbanded and joined big spheres, the game would be more interesting, better wars, less scams, more memes, better player retention, and overall a blast. I hear this all the time, but micros drive people to engage more with the game when they first join. People don't want to get lost in a sea of a 100 nation alliance. That sucks, makes people realize that the bulk of this game is Discord channels and memes and if you aren't in on the jokes and discussions, you literally just do exactly what you are told and nothing more cause organization control is key for this game. Micros and tools to help micros help drive player engagement.

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Listen to J Kell's new single: 

 

About The Author

 An early member of Roz Wei in 2015, J Kell went on to stay within the paperless world of Empyrea before signing with Soup Kitchen while scoring a record deal in 2019. J Kell went on to release multiple Orbis Top 40 hits. In 2020, J Kell took a break from Orbis. He's back.

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