Peace in our Time

[Roq]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:35 PM, Kevanovia said:

 s*** on for it?

Kev. I'm 60% sure that you can say shit without it being censored. If not, I'm going on another hiatus from the forums. That's the main reason I'm posting this, but so that I don't get a warning... this announcement is a thing that occurred. It will definitely certainly be talked about. Very important to have been announced. (Also congrats on 12 pages. Usually only meme compilations get this far)

[Zevari]

12 hours ago, Ducc Zucc said:

Yeah I'm arguing it's a good thing that it's becoming more common, stuff actually happening in game is much better than some agreement to let a few spheres farm slightly more efficiently. The only dialogue you're getting is people calling out this move for how !@#$ it looks. Sphere to sphere MDPs are just sad, even if its conditional, if you don't feel safe with your own sphere get a new one or just deal with it, not that hard,

For your last point, I can't speak for the spheres but any war we plan at HoF isn't going to be a dogpile. It's a shame that last winter Oasis and Mystery leaders got paranoid but I can't control that, that war was definitely the least satisfying one I've been in. Dogpiling is a whole other monster that we can get into but it's not related to chaining. For chain wars the most strain is put on to the alliances chaining, the blitz is the most expensive part of the war and you gotta pay for that twice. We also don't have years of member deposits to tap into like TKR, T$, and Rose, so I don't get why people want to throw flak at this idea.

I can agree to some extent with what you are saying but I still believe situations like these are interesting and good for the game at large. Last time this happened MysterOasis got rolled hard for it, this time you can't as easily roll HW or Celestial but it doesn't mean the other spheres are without methods of dealing with it. Who said punishment had to be dished out now? You could easily wait for a future moment (after the treaty expires) and use this situation as a CB to jump one of them. Alternatively it would be quite the interesting situation to have a third party jump on HW and Celestial if they ever go to war (creating an effective 1v1v1 but with the newcomer being higher milled). 

This is why I think this shit is good, it creates short term benefits but long term problems for the parties involved, people need to stop doing politics like it's a bipolar world. Conflicts can have more that two sides with our current system and the shit storm it could create would be amazing.

(also I can appreciate the fact you don't dogpile as much as other spheres/alliances considering you stayed out this current war)

 

On a side note would a chained blitz not be quite cheap since your target has typically demilled, I would expect it to cost the opponent far more to try counter it.

[Cincinnatus]

Always a good time to see Eumir rope a doping an entire thread.

[Thor]

Pretty pathetic to see this from both spheres. I'm disappointed in you T$. I'd expect this from HW but not you. 

On 5/26/2022 at 3:03 AM, Ducc Zucc said:

Anyone going to point out that chaining wars isn't bad at all? It's actually a good play that creates content unlike this zero chromosome play you guys just made. TKR choosing this hill to die on is especially stupid seeing as they've done the same thing twice before.

I guess Knightfall isn't present in thier memory anymore. 

[Mayor]

38 minutes ago, Thor said:

I guess Knightfall isn't present in thier memory anymore. 

TKR has a very short memory when it is convenient for them.

[Cooper_]

I'm still lost as to how an agreement to safely get to a lower MMR is being held as the same as or even similar to the Swamp-Oasis bloc-wide MDP against a potential threat.

Does intent not matter anymore?  Or for that matter the impact on the meta here, which is just to incentivize a shorter war among the combatants and not allow an easy dub on a demilitarized foe?  

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

3 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

I'm still lost as to how an agreement to safely get to a lower MMR is being held as the same as or even similar to the Swamp-Oasis bloc-wide MDP against a potential threat.

Does intent not matter anymore?  Or for that matter the impact on the meta here, which is just to incentivize a shorter war among the combatants and not allow an easy dub on a demilitarized foe?  

Oh you beat me too this, i was going to basically say this in the other thread, but I determined making fun of BR was more important, and I didnt want to drag down my joke with actual content.

[Achilles The Great]

18 hours ago, Mayor said:

TKR has a very short memory when it is convenient for them.

You know how it is, old grumpy folks be getting dementia. 

[Sam Cooper]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:39 AM, Cooper_ said:

Does intent not matter anymore?

Do you not intend to use it like an MDP? (definition, since at this point I am convinced ro$ewood doesn't remember what an MDP is anymore: "a mutual agreement between participants to defend each other in case either one is attacked.")
If you don't, go ahead and get article 3 removed from the post. If you do, own it.

Now the comparison between Myoasis Inc and this treaty:

1. Mystery Inc and Oasis agree on a temporary agreement to defend each other against potential threats. 

2. Hollywood and Celestial agree on a temporary agreement to defend each  other against potential threats.

Please find me the difference because I don't see any, let me help you with one difference though, the threats Myoasis inc was paranoid about were actually capable of taking them both down at once (which eventually they did). And that may not be the case here, clock, on paper, is outnumbered by both hw and celestial in a 1v1 esp after the departure of HoF.
The conditions you have given do not affect how it is going to be used, it only affects the duration within which it can be activated and used, changes nothing at all.

You are doing no one a favor by "incentivizing a shorter war among the combatants", not even the combatants lol, all you have accomplished here is saving pixels you were probably never going to lose in the first place and you chose to pay with your reputation, fair trade I guess, just own it for once and maybe you'll have some left.

[Majima Goro]

I'm not sure how no one has pointed this out yet but here I go.

By signing this treaty, you have successfully painted a big red x on yourselves. You know they will come for you. Not now but they will eventually come for you. The question is when. 

Once this treaty is void, either one of you could be a target of a DoW. You might win, you might lose, that's an entirely different story. But when the CB(officially or not) used is this treaty, the party that is not hit knows it could be 'chained'. Would it then be in the favour of the second party to help party 1 and eliminate the threat with numbers OR would party 2 stay sitting, waiting for the storm to hit.

This treaty is dog poop for a reason because if we go by the so called precedence, in all cases, both parties should be rolled. But both parties can avoid being rolled by treatying each other indefinitely, bringing us back to the start of the loop and the cycle begins all over again. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Majima Goro
I'm dumb

[Mars]

lamer !@#$

[Cthulu]

ROFLMAO It's awesome how this starts with an infamous quote regarding the appeasement of Hitler by giving him the Sudetenland.

[Jasnah Kholin]

1 hour ago, Majima Goro said:

By signing this treaty, you have successfully painted a big red x on yourselves. You know they will come for you. Not now but they will eventually come for you. The question is when. 

People would attack Hollywood and Celestial anyways. Perhaps this will be added to the list of CBs but this isn’t going to make anybody go from choosing to leave either sphere alone to plotting a war. And there would be a list of CBs, this pact isn’t going to be the sole reason that somebody hits.

[Wendell Williams]

Congratulations!! You have received the GOLDEN DOWNVOTE ARROW for over 100 downvotes!! 

 

[Cincinnatus]

18 hours ago, Majima Goro said:

I'm not sure how no one has pointed this out yet but here I go.

By signing this treaty, you have successfully painted a big red x on yourselves. You know they will come for you. Not now but they will eventually come for you. The question is when. 

Once this treaty is void, either one of you could be a target of a DoW. You might win, you might lose, that's an entirely different story. But when the CB(officially or not) used is this treaty, the party that is not hit knows it could be 'chained'. Would it then be in the favour of the second party to help party 1 and eliminate the threat with numbers OR would party 2 stay sitting, waiting for the storm to hit.

This treaty is dog poop for a reason because if we go by the so called precedence, in all cases, both parties should be rolled. But both parties can avoid being rolled by treatying each other indefinitely, bringing us back to the start of the loop and the cycle begins all over again. 

Clock are welcome to try.

We all know after all that if either ourselves or Celestial had remained at max mil for the duration of the war, clock would not have dared to even contemplate an attack. 

Or maybe I'm wrong. Hard to tell..

Edited May 30, 2022 by Charles Bolivar

[Cooper_]

9 hours ago, Sam Cooper said:

Please find me the difference because I don't see any, let me help you with one difference though, the threats Myoasis inc was paranoid about were actually capable of taking them both down at once (which eventually they did). And that may not be the case here, clock, on paper, is outnumbered by both hw and celestial in a 1v1 esp after the departure of HoF.
The conditions you have given do not affect how it is going to be used, it only affects the duration within which it can be activated and used, changes nothing at all.

I don't think HW is scared of a clock 1 v 1.  Don't get me wrong it would be a hard fight, but if we're militarized I think it'd be a competitive war for both sides.  The issue is if Clock (or BR) wanted to take advantage of our demilling to try to get an easy win.  This isn't our war, and I don't see why we have to sit here and be fully milled and lose economically while people unrelated to either of our spheres fight it out.  If Clock or BR wants to dance, then let's do it but we're not dumb enough to let them do it while we have our pants down (GnR rings bells here as a warning).  

I'd also point out that the Oasis-Swamp treaty was directly in response to a war they knew was coming to try to consolidate out of their situation.  Neither Celestial or HW intends to fight a war together because of this agreement.  I think the context–Oasis and Swamp having a historical friendship and being part of the same sphere versus the Rose/TKR and Grumpy/T$ grudges which dominated the game for the past year–also factors into these agreements.  Bitter rivals putting enmities aside to secure a political advantage is exactly how we envisioned the minispheres meta to be!

[George]

11 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

 Bitter rivals putting enmities aside to secure a political advantage is exactly how we envisioned the minispheres meta to be!

HA! This may be how you or the top 3 alliances who combined forces *envisioned* it but I promise you a hegemonic power was definitely not everyone's elses goal or vision 

[Miller]

9 hours ago, Majima Goro said:

You know they will come for you. Not now but they will eventually come for you. The question is when.

Do they have a particular set of skills that make them a nightmare for people like us?

[Lossi]

All this treaty shows is that Ro$eyWood has an open door policy.  Now we need to sign Celestial and Clock, we can create the anti-alex hegemony.

[Cooper_]

5 hours ago, Azazel said:

HA! This may be how you or the top 3 alliances who combined forces *envisioned* it but I promise you a hegemonic power was definitely not everyone's elses goal or vision 

And there you have it folks, we've gone full circle to claims of hegemony.  The nefarious plan to not lose build slots for a few weeks is going to break minispheres!  

I apologize if we did someone the disservice of not letting them get a free, unearned win on a demilitarized foe.  You come in here yapping about hegemony.  Please, what a joke.

Spheres interacting with each other, especially former rivals (i.e. "dynamism"), is exactly how it was imaged.  Politics was meant to be interesting and new and changing versus the slog of bipolarity.  This is interesting and new and changing.  

[George]

1 hour ago, Cooper_ said:

And there you have it folks, we've gone full circle to claims of hegemony.  The nefarious plan to not lose build slots for a few weeks is going to break minispheres!  

I apologize if we did someone the disservice of not letting them get a free, unearned win on a demilitarized foe.  You come in here yapping about hegemony.  Please, what a joke.

Spheres interacting with each other, especially former rivals (i.e. "dynamism"), is exactly how it was imaged.  Politics was meant to be interesting and new and changing versus the slog of bipolarity.  This is interesting and new and changing.  

Your post and attempt to downplay is a joke and changes nothing. Look at the numbers, even with every other spheres in the game, fighting your new super blob still likleyresults in a loss.  So yes you actually nail the definition perfectly. 

 

This isnt diverse, this is pathetic and cowardly. Basicly the entire game has denounced the move at this point. I'm not sure how you guys think defending this action is a good idea 

[Sam Cooper]

6 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

Bitter rivals putting enmities aside to secure a political advantage is exactly how we envisioned the minispheres meta to be!

Sure but then will the Syndicate apologize to former Oasis and Mystery Inc alliances for joining clock against them for the exact same thing and agree that their war was unjustified? if not, does it mean that you two (TKR and Syndi) don't even agree what this agreement is for and are expecting different things out of it?

7 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

I'd also point out that the Oasis-Swamp treaty was directly in response to a war they knew was coming to try to consolidate out of their situation.

Exactly, they did it against a war they knew was coming, so they had a reason for their paranoia, you don't. And you think this is an argument in your favor. You can argue those alliances had a history of cooperation that somehow makes it different an MDP between former rivals, to which I would respond with "quack-quack!"

7 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

Neither Celestial or HW intends to fight a war together because of this agreement.

Cool, go ahead and remove article 3 to back this statement.

Call this gravedigging but I am seriously pissed lol, I will just quote your response to Isjaki's rant about the same infamous treaty that got myoasis rolled where you are impressed by clockwater's military response to said treaty and hope no one repeats this mistake, and here you are defending the same thing because it's your successor doing it this time. So now the thing that endangered the idea of minispheres has ironically become the very definition of minispheres.

[WarriorSoul]

9 minutes ago, Azazel said:

Your post and attempt to downplay is a joke and changes nothing. Look at the numbers, even with every other spheres in the game, fighting your new super blob still likleyresults in a loss.  So yes you actually nail the definition perfectly. 

 

This isnt diverse, this is pathetic and cowardly. Basicly the entire game has denounced the move at this point. I'm not sure how you guys think defending this action is a good idea 

The line that it’s some longstanding treaty between HW/Celestial is about as disingenuous as it gets, and you and everyone else pretending it’s anything more than a matter of convenience and pragmatism with a clearly-defined expiration that will likely go into effect in a matter of weeks is the only joke here.

 

But go on, get your outrage upvotes. It’s the only thing the talking heads in this wasteland are good for.

[Danzek]

8 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

Bitter rivals putting enmities aside to secure a political advantage is exactly how we envisioned the minispheres meta to be!

I mean, the main thing about minispheres is first to have mini spheres. Two spheres which are not mini and being much larger than the others and then on top of that having a NAP and MDP is the opposite. 

The point of minispheres is to create more opportunities and dynamics rather than for example; locking us into some bipolar political situation. Having spheres put aside grudges that locked us into repeating situations can be in service of creating new opportunities and dynamics. 

Again, the two larger spheres having an MDP and NAP does the opposite, it reduces opportunities, reduces possible dynamics and creates a situation of them, with 60% of the game whales, in a distinct position to the rest of the game. 

The Knights Radiant has been one of the biggest impediments and critics of minispheres. Notably with the formation and continuance of quack, then of hollywood, and now this. 

I'm sure you have to put up a front, but you're being incredibly disingenuous both with your definition of what minispheres are, and trying to lecture others on it. 

[Prefonteen]

9 hours ago, Azazel said:

HA! This may be how you or the top 3 alliances who combined forces *envisioned* it but I promise you a hegemonic power was definitely not everyone's elses goal or vision 

 

1 hour ago, Azazel said:

Your post and attempt to downplay is a joke and changes nothing. Look at the numbers, even with every other spheres in the game, fighting your new super blob still likleyresults in a loss.  So yes you actually nail the definition perfectly. 

 

This isnt diverse, this is pathetic and cowardly. Basicly the entire game has denounced the move at this point. I'm not sure how you guys think defending this action is a good idea 

Careful now. A few more of these claims and @Benfro and I might come out of retirement to sit down with our friends @Sweeeeet Ronny D and @Abbas Mehdi to make your fear a reality and become an *actual* hegemony.

Would you prefer we do that? Or shall we go back to realism mode and acknowledge that maybe your saber rattling isn basal fearmongering,  rather than a rational political assessment?