Return to the OWF, fellow Orbisans

[Thalmor]

I think 'Orbisans' is the Demonym for residents of Orbis. Those with more knowledge in etymology are free to correct me. I asked Alex and he said he had never thought about it, so he didn't have an answer for me. Rip.

In between making appeals and writing love letters, there has been a sudden return to high-level, passionate, long-form discourse on the forums. Perhaps my brain is fried from 5G cell towers, but I haven't really seen this kind of stuff since - and may Allah forgive me for uttering these words - New Pacific Order's Last Time.

In response to how destructive that war was, both in the rhetoric and its effects on the player base, the meta quickly did a one-eighty. We currently play a game where decision makers are constantly acting in good faith within a principled framework. Wars end without terms- sometimes suddenly. The community regulates itself to ensure no one or two spheres can overpower the others. Yes, there are exceptions to all these themes, but there's almost two years of data to look over and I believe that's been the trend. The current meta is a strong disgust response to what we had to deal with in that one war with those people.

Interestingly, alongside the meta's shift to being as non-toxic as possible, spirited debate has also disappeared. If you go to the wiki, and browse the forum threads linked in the various globals of 2016-2018, you will find plenty of discourse among the decision makers of the time. Some threads, if I remember correctly, would even reach 50 pages long (in a time where the active play base was less than half the size it is now, mind you). These threads would have plenty of walls of text, and tons of passion behind them. Unfortunately, these kinds of discussions don't happen anymore. It's probably the only change in the meta these past two years that I miss. Presently, it appears as if most wars and their motivations are cut and dry enough that there isn't much room for spirited discussion. If I had to guess, that's the price paid for everyone operating in the same frame of trying to act in good faith (I'm not sure if that should change though; it will inevitably happen as the years go on anyways so there's no need to hasten our collective return to hell).

I do miss the discussions of the past, though. I miss the intellectual melees that happened. I miss the passion. I welcome the changes that have occurred in the mindsets of people since NPOLT's ended, but to me, the lack of enthusiastic debate on the forums is missed. I think a lot of it has shifted to Discord, but a lot of that is hidden away in embassies, DMs, group chats, and in servers I am not a part of. There are times for talks to be hidden, but I think a lot of discourse can happen out in the open here on the forums, and it would be nice if that returned. 

I am not the only one who feels this way. I've seen plenty of people saying that they enjoy Horsecock's OP. Killzbob made a video recording of him reading that post, and it sits with 135 views; making it the 5th most viewed video on the Thalmor Radio archive- a channel with over 100 videos. In that thread, others jumped in and wrote long posts of their own. Reading these walles de textos are fun and the energy behind them is somewhat intoxicating. Now, in that thread, recent posts are encouraging people to return to the forums (comments made by Shiho and Adam are my inspiration for making this thread myself). I think that is something that should happen.

The forums have been a big part of the game. It is a place where communities make announcements, and others post their memes or valuable information (such as a tier or sphere analysis). While these things are all great, the complex political discussions that use to be commonplace are as every much a part of the game's experience and collective inheritance of the community as every meme or serious review of something that gets made. While the forums were probably used more in the early years because IRC is, like, from the 90's and Discord is much more convenient and fluid, I do think the community is missing out on entertaining and informative discussions by our political leaders in our alliances and spheres.

So, that is my request, fellow players of the game (especially those who are as decrypted and wrinkled as I am). Return to the forums. Return home. Discord has it uses, but during a time of war - or some other crisis - take it to the forums. Hash out those issues in the DoW or RoH. Someone screws you over? make a call out thread instead of yelling in the embassy. The community stands to benefit from seeing these things discussed more in the open when they happen. I enjoy seeing it, and I know others do too. It's a part of the game that I miss, and it's an old pastime that our newer companions can derive important information and fresh entertainment from.

TL:DR - Use the forums more because people are getting value (information and entertainment) out of the walls of text that come with passionate and energetic political discussion.

[KillzBob]

yeah what he said

[Chad]

OK this is epic thanks for the post my thoughts but put better and more eloquently.  

[King Valerio]

Public FA best FA

[zigbigadorlou]

4 minutes ago, ChrisMars said:

Public FA best FA

Forum public FA is the worst public FA tho

[Krampus]

The WoT reading business is going to be booming at this rate. @KillzBob will be rich in no time! and Zigbir will be bankrupt lol

I charge a fifth of what Killzbob does, just saying 👀

Edited January 29, 2022 by Krampus

[King Valerio]

I'm not the biggest fan of reading walls of text. But if it in interesting I will read it. I didnt play PnW when "forum FA" was a thing, but I would like to see this. It would make the game a lot more interesting then just keeping every little thing private and hidden in embassies. 

6 minutes ago, zigbigadorlou said:

Forum public FA is the worst public FA tho

 

[Neo Le]

nah, I like to see chaos but like lets make more opsec PUBLIC

[BelgiumFury]

when I read horsecocks post this was exactly what I felt. I agree comepletly. 

[WarriorSoul]

This is a good and correct opinion. Obviously you can't expect a paradigm shift overnight with respect to the use of forums for conducting those kinds of discussions as opposed to Discord. Generally what it requires is just for people to write shit, which will, because this is (for better or for worse) a community with the ethos of b*tchy middle schoolers, provoke discussion, debate, what have you.

I think there's proof positive of the if-you-post-it-they-will-come mentality w/r/t forum discussions, given that just about anything from the fairly innocuous meta discussion posts to the fairly inflammatory mid-war posts provoke pretty robust discussions. These kinds of games have (and likely always will) draw the kind of players who want to engage in these sorts of public discussions, and the community would do well to enable rather than stifle it.

Edited January 29, 2022 by WarriorSoul

[Mars]

i think its orbizen

[Joe Schmo]

Time to return us to hell 😈

On a more serious note, I agree with this post %100.

[Kitschie]

Yeah I miss those days. I agree 100%, let’s do it.

[Cooper_]

1 hour ago, Thalmor said:

TL:DR - Use the forums more because people are getting value (information and entertainment) out of the walls of text that come with passionate and energetic political discussion.

Citation?

[MinesomeMC]

Nah let's return to alliance announcements for comms

[Etat]

1 hour ago, Thalmor said:

Great post

Agreed.  I think that taking FA and much of the other significant interactions away from the OWF has inadvertently alienated the majority of Orbisans/Orbizens from the machinations that make the game tick.  Way to kill engagement in the game and leave the decision making with the same people still moaning about KF.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Etat
didn't realise I'd sworn - sorry folks

[Damon I]

[Rygus]

Prior to (and even during) the conflict that shouldn't be named, most of FA was a one two punch:

Things used to be public, personal (in a good way, a way that adds true passion), and vicious. Rhetorically vicious in the sense that inherent respect for one's opponent was preserved (some of the time), but the point was made to everyone reading. The masses swayed either way, depending on the delivery of the posts. Some select nations were hit, and hard rhetoric was flown by every side imaginable.

Things used to be private; However, much like in real-life politics, the leak of backlogs and intelligence frequently shook Orbis. Alliances are changing sides, new minor wars are being declared, sanctions are being imposed left and right, globals are being launched, and new rivalries are beginning and ending. When a leak happened, Shifty would post, and public opinion would sway one way or another, many times being united (and many times not). People would point fingers, raise eyebrows, question their authenticity or affirm it. Espionage felt more impactful then.

There's been a disconnect between passion in FA and forum posts, with much of it dumped in backchannels in discord or through other means. Leaks are just simply accepted these days as being expected "for transparency" because of how much negotiating happens off the forums. The use of Discord for FA, imo, came out of necessity to coordinate the clusterF that was that global. However, like many wartime measures, there comes a time where you need to wean off and return, to an extent, to the way things were before.

I agree with Thaldad completely.

[John M Keynes]

I'm glad the forums are making a comeback. The only time most people get to see any sort of real forum discussion is during wars or when anything interesting comes up: yearly awards, new bloc, or new alliance; you name it!

However, tons of WoT's have been popping all over the forums lately and have brought a different vibe. I have read 'An Appeal to the Syndicate' and 'Dear Horsecock' recently and people also seem to enjoy reading them as well. Sure, they are loaded with salt🧂, but it's the type of salt that is much needed in this current state of the game.

Most FA conversations take place in secluded backroom channels on Discord where only a select few get to see them. That despicable "hell" of the earth is long gone and away from this game, yet the aftermath of what occurred during NPOLT continues to follow through.

Unfortunately, the current meta is shifted to where everyone is afraid to potentially become a "hegemony"; an "IQ". And imo it's not favorable for the health of the game.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Key

[Kurdanak]

Well said (and thanks for taking the time to write it), would be lovely to have more activity here. 😄 Forums certainly do have a few appeals that chatrooms do not, even back during IRC - and I'm not just saying that because my decrepit mind and body can't keep up with these damn zoomers in real-time chat. >_>

[Charles Bolivar]

4 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

Forum public FA is the worst public FA tho

It's the worst, but it's also the most entertaining 🤣

[hidude45454]

COULD NOT AGREE MORE. As another wall of text afficionado I have thoroughly enjoyed the publicized discussion that has happened over the last few weeks and hope this is a positive trend towards a healthier, more engaging game meta. Admittedly, most of my WoTs these days are closed away on my DNN show but I will strive to make a much better effort personally in posting on forums as well (starting with this mini one!)

I think, and it's not just optimism speaking here, that an environment with smaller minispheres is healthier not just for politics and war, but also for increasing the number of people engaged and involved in political and military discussion. It's much easier to pick a team, or commentate between teams, and the fact there are more spheres competing against each other naturally means more people will be brought to the forefront in order to achieve those sphere goals. Futhermore, I think more open world discussion would be a reaping of the seeds planted from the past few years in what I think is a new information age for PnW that accompanied the minisphere era -- more people than ever have access to the internal workings of alliances, bots that gather information are now completely pervasive, and the rapid increase in the number and population of news servers and other sources of information indicates that many more regular members want to know what's going than ever before. The fact that for the most part many actors are acting in good faith, I think, furthers this point -- it's much easier for all ranges of players to have an honest debate on any subject, regardless of any salt or ill will that may get thrown around.

The return to forums, at least for me, was the presence of a supportive audience and a much less toxic environment than what persisted during the NPO and IQ era from which I quit the game voluntarily for many years. Regardless, as a somewhat old school player myself, I remember engaging in many debates on the OWF from back then, and even though many of my opinions have changed since, the one thing I absolutely believe in is the ability to have open discussion in order to progress not just oneself but also the general knowledge of the public as a whole, which is why I put so much effort into my GW19 WoT a few months ago in order to have a much-needed discussion on the milcom competency of the game. I can't come up with the correct solutions to all problems from just living in my own head, and I always encourage people to find faults with my logic so that together everyone can come to a more accurate and comprehensive conclusion.

As a final point, I think that the OWF serves as much better place to discuss certain topics than Discord for several reasons -- first, it requires you to put more thought into your posts than typing a few half-shitposts on Discord, and also allows you to sort out your thoughts and principles much more effectively than taking a few mindless seconds to type something in RON, only for most serious discussion to receive an unserious answer or a complete derailment in order to avoid talking about the topic together. Because the OWF is so public, like we've seen with the call to action from HC, it forces people to respond seriously in return. Furthermore, the publicity allows for the involvement of many more non-FA people in the game, even if all they're doing is reading and lurking -- as a very easy metric to give, HC's thread is already sitting at a whopping 12,000 views compared to maybe a dozen at most reading most Discord messages at a time. This in turn generates a great deal of political intrigue that I think this game is sorely lacking in some spots and allows not just supporters of a sphere, but also mostly independent voices like you and I to find some middle ground that I think just as equally progresses the health of the game and a minisphere dynamic. As a final, somewhat related point, most Discord channels, let's be honest here, are an echo chamber of sorts, including the ones I'm in. This means people with opposing opinions often get shamed or ridiculed into staying silent and not participating (and let's not forget about the toxicity), thus furthering the echo chamber. Although I think the OWF can be a much scarier place to post on for most players (myself included), at least I can say that I'm not afraid of putting my opinions out there, maybe getting some flak for it, but at least coming to a final understanding on where I stand and why, and where other people stand and why.

Well, perhaps the only downside to OWF discussion is that I tend to get a bit burned out sometimes doing this. But hey, not like that means I am stopping soon  

[MinesomeMC]

17 minutes ago, hidude45454 said:

As a final point, I think that the OWF serves as much better place to discuss certain topics than Discord for several reasons -- first, it requires you to put more thought into your posts than typing a few half-shitposts on Discord, and also allows you to sort out your thoughts and principles much more effectively than taking 

I just shitpost everywhere

[Aden]

As a lurker I love this 100% agree 

[kalev60]

too long , did NOT read ! #!@#$_Forums , #It_deserves_ to_ die

JK, wall of text next to my morning coffee is very nice indeed!