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[DoW] Quest for the Holy Grail


Daveth
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The whole "fair fight" versus "dogpile" narrative has always been a fascinating one.

Say whatever you will about the fun of a fair fight, people still like to win. Deliberately balancing wars only really makes sense strategically when the sole purpose of the war is simply to fight and test yourself against an enemy.

If you want to pin down your enemy as quickly as possible, and simultaneously minimise your own loses, it's going to be the overwhelming sledgehammer approach almost every time. It's just the most direct way to do it.

We're not here to test strategies, we're not going to sit on them for a year to drive them out of the game, and we're not going to be presenting them with ridiculous terms that violate game rules.

We're here to give Camelot a black eye for past grievances. This is how it's done.

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<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
<+Curufinwe> Can confirm

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32 minutes ago, TitanJazza said:

Oh no..... not cam

Oh yes... yes cam

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Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines
Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order

 

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9 hours ago, Insert Name Here said:

 

There's very few poeple who enjoy well fought wars. Those are mainly in alliances like KT or my own, seen as before this global Ob was rolling WTF who are twice as big and with higher average city count, at least counting the nations we could hit. We did the same to RnR a few months ago but they were only like 16 members and we were 11 or 12 but also with lower average city count.

Most people care about winning regardless of how easy it is, and also about sphere domination. The old Syndisphere was the only grouping that went into wars outnumbered and dominated (bar HM last war - we went in with slightly higher numbers but knowing for sure we were gonna get countered, at least by TFP and WTF, but I kept telling Ockey Immortals were gonna counter), then there's been mostly dogplies, from TKR in the old days, to IQ and now to Rose who are performing their 3rd dogpile in a row in globals and are the new hegemonic power via what in the past was frowned upon: dodgy intersphere paperless agreements while pretending to be a detached sphere like Hollywood is.

Because most people are idiots, they cry foul whenever they're dogpiled and then forget everything whenever they're dogpiling. I for instance have voiced my dissatisfaction when Papers Please turned out to be a disgusting dogplie, and to a lesser extent Duck Hunt, with my side performing the dogpile on both.

The game is boring as it is, so when you take the only interesting thing away (fairly even wars), you simply end up with a vast majority of the playerbase in the biggest alliances who prioritize intersphere power struggle, and the few warmongers, who do enjoy decent wars where stuff like coordination is decisive, end up in small ones like KT or Ob.

Stop with the mendacity. Oblivion was being supported by Hollywood assets and WTF was generally hitting Hollywood, at least in the early stages. In actuality, WTF was likely being used to skirmish Oblivion pre-war (that it was untreatied and KT was ignoring it suggests it was bait for Oblivion), except that WTF was complete crap and dealing trickles of damage to Hollywood.

 

The only thing in my mind that "resembles" a true war, fought for the sake of a war, with terrible odds might be:

 

-KT vs Oasis. True, Oasis triggered the conflict itself, but KT wasn't backing down and would have turned Oasis into raider bait if Oasis hadn't done something about it. KT faced a force 4-5 times its size in terms of tiering-adjusted strength and managed to achieve positive war stats in the process.

 

-NPO vs Chaos / KETOG. If you trust what Sphinx said in RON, if Guardian and Grumpy had sold infra and downdeclared into NPO, instead of functioning as logistics, the war outcome would have been substantially different. NPO, likewise, knew that it had bad odds on paper but went in anyways. We ended up with a war stretching more than 6 months as a consequence.

 

The recent Guns and Roses might count, except that Oasis and Minc elements went in completely expecting that they had adequate forces. They likely did, but major !@#$-ups (the beige order, for one) resulted in an operational defeat.

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35 minutes ago, Mars said:

so this was a long time coming but you waited for a 10v1 to do it..

interesting, also kinda lame and cowardly

 

10 vs 1?

Imagine my surprise at discovering Nexus had 700 nations...

But yes. We waited until Camelot shat the bed and left itself completely devoid of allies, rather than hitting them while they were party to a bloc we have absolute zero beef with.

I'm sorry prudent planning does not meet with your approval.

 

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<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
<+Curufinwe> Can confirm

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20 minutes ago, Sval said:

 

10 vs 1?

Imagine my surprise at discovering Nexus had 700 nations...

But yes. We waited until Camelot shat the bed and left itself completely devoid of allies, rather than hitting them while they were party to a bloc we have absolute zero beef with.

I'm sorry prudent planning does not meet with your approval.

 

sounds to me like you kept your head down when it was challenging, and opted to 'wait' and kick someone when theyre down.

also lol at 'prudent planning', dude, if camelot wasnt where it is now u wouldnt do sh

what i dont approve is showboating one sided dogpiles, its weak and in bad taste and judging by your blocs lineup it seems like this is the highlight of your military prowess

 

Edited by Mars
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Throw me to the wolves and I’ll return leading the pack.

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2 hours ago, Mars said:

sounds to me like you kept your head down when it was challenging, and opted to 'wait' and kick someone when theyre down.

also lol at 'prudent planning', dude, if camelot wasnt where it is now u wouldnt do sh

what i dont approve is showboating one sided dogpiles, its weak and in bad taste and judging by your blocs lineup it seems like this is the highlight of your military prowess

 

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of those 700 Nexus nations standing at my back. Could you peddle your 10 v 1 narrative a little louder please?

<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
<+Curufinwe> Can confirm

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14 minutes ago, Sval said:

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of those 700 Nexus nations standing at my back. Could you peddle your 10 v 1 narrative a little louder please?

seems smug little man enjoys his junior role in this one sided dogpile a little too much

carry on

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Throw me to the wolves and I’ll return leading the pack.

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21 minutes ago, Mars said:

seems smug little man enjoys his junior role in this one sided dogpile a little too much

carry on


It's true. Knowing there aren't 700 nations in Nexus fills me with such undue pride.

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<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
<+Curufinwe> Can confirm

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6 hours ago, Sval said:

The whole "fair fight" versus "dogpile" narrative has always been a fascinating one.

Say whatever you will about the fun of a fair fight, people still like to win. Deliberately balancing wars only really makes sense strategically when the sole purpose of the war is simply to fight and test yourself against an enemy.

If you want to pin down your enemy as quickly as possible, and simultaneously minimise your own loses, it's going to be the overwhelming sledgehammer approach almost every time. It's just the most direct way to do it.

We're not here to test strategies, we're not going to sit on them for a year to drive them out of the game, and we're not going to be presenting them with ridiculous terms that violate game rules.

We're here to give Camelot a black eye for past grievances. This is how it's done.

So the “dogpiling” narratives of days past and of the future should be disregarded?

image.gif.d80770bf646703bba00c14ad52088af9.gif

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Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a real war where it was even for both sides? Excluding alliances such as KT which exists solely to fight and wars that were done out of desperation to save the game/prevent real hegemonic powers. 

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1 hour ago, Zevari said:

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a real war where it was even for both sides? Excluding alliances such as KT which exists solely to fight and wars that were done out of desperation to save the game/prevent real hegemonic powers. 

The only fair war (with some sort of relevance) that I've seen since I created my nation in August 2018 was Surf's Up (or KETOG vs Chaos) right before gw14 which only lasted like 2 weeks iirc. All the others were dogpiles or quite one sided so shrugs.

Also, KT isn't preventing hegemonic powers lol, they're politically irrelevant.

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36 minutes ago, Pascal said:

Also, KT isn't preventing hegemonic powers lol, they're politically irrelevant.

I didn't mean to word it like that they were meant to be two separate examples (KT as an alliance type) and (Wars to prevent hegemonic powers)

 

41 minutes ago, Pascal said:

The only fair war (with some sort of relevance) that I've seen since I created my nation in August 2018 was Surf's Up (or KETOG vs Chaos) right before gw14 which only lasted like 2 weeks iirc. All the others were dogpiles or quite one sided so shrugs.

So 3 or more years without a 'fair' war, has anything really changed in regards to dogpiles then? Or is this just people spinning narratives for their echo chambers at this point....

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2 hours ago, Kevanovia said:

So the “dogpiling” narratives of days past and of the future should be disregarded?

Not sure what this has to do with anything I said. I'm pointing out that going in with a larger force and an eye to win is, always will be, and always has been a tactic used on Orbis.

Few start a war without some advantage, whether that's in numbers overall or tiering. Either way, somebody will brand it a dogpile.

46 minutes ago, Zevari said:

So 3 or more years without a 'fair' war, has anything really changed in regards to dogpiles then? Or is this just people spinning narratives for their echo chambers at this point....

It's people spinning narratives, as it always is.
Don't like the larger aggressor? "ZOMG a 10 vs 1 dogpile!"
Don't like the alliance being hit? "Good luck, have fun!"

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<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
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6 hours ago, Pascal said:

The only fair war (with some sort of relevance) that I've seen since I created my nation in August 2018 was Surf's Up (or KETOG vs Chaos) right before gw14 which only lasted like 2 weeks iirc. All the others were dogpiles or quite one sided so shrugs.

Also, KT isn't preventing hegemonic powers lol, they're politically irrelevant.

Chaos vs KETOG was semi-fair / even until Nova Riata in the TKR order of battle imploded after Pooball was exposed for having generated massive resources with a timing glitch. Then Chaos started falling apart, it seems.

 

The war also resembled GnR to an extent because of the downdec work conducted by KETOG, as well as Chaos' inability to effectively updeclare against KETOG.

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On 9/6/2021 at 3:09 AM, hidude45454 said:

You say that like it's a bad thing, if Ockey made us do that I'd accept it in a heartbeat

(PS literally shaking and crying that Ec didn't get an invite to the party 😭)

Let's switch to windmilds to save little lovely cats 🥰

78be39c24ea9f3a0med.jpg 

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21 hours ago, Insert Name Here said:

 

There's very few poeple who enjoy well fought wars. Those are mainly in alliances like KT or my own, seen as before this global Ob was rolling WTF who are twice as big and with higher average city count, at least counting the nations we could hit. We did the same to RnR a few months ago but they were only like 16 members and we were 11 or 12 but also with lower average city count.

Most people care about winning regardless of how easy it is, and also about sphere domination. The old Syndisphere was the only grouping that went into wars outnumbered and dominated (bar HM last war - we went in with slightly higher numbers but knowing for sure we were gonna get countered, at least by TFP and WTF, but I kept telling Ockey Immortals were gonna counter), then there's been mostly dogplies, from TKR in the old days, to IQ and now to Rose who are performing their 3rd dogpile in a row in globals and are the new hegemonic power via what in the past was frowned upon: dodgy intersphere paperless agreements while pretending to be a detached sphere like Hollywood is.

Because most people are idiots, they cry foul whenever they're dogpiled and then forget everything whenever they're dogpiling. I for instance have voiced my dissatisfaction when Papers Please turned out to be a disgusting dogplie, and to a lesser extent Duck Hunt, with my side performing the dogpile on both.

The game is boring as it is, so when you take the only interesting thing away (fairly even wars), you simply end up with a vast majority of the playerbase in the biggest alliances who prioritize intersphere power struggle, and the few warmongers, who do enjoy decent wars where stuff like coordination is decisive, end up in small ones like KT or Ob.

Yeah I like to be on the loosing side there is much more excitement in wars and being creative in applying new/old strategies to win or at least inflict dmg to other side. Ofc if they are not prolonged as it was during NPO's Last Time. When my side is wining I mostly stop fighting as there is no excitement to beat knocked out opponent.

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On 9/7/2021 at 5:38 PM, Maia said:

Yeah I like to be on the loosing side there is much more excitement in wars and being creative in applying new/old strategies to win or at least inflict dmg to other side. Ofc if they are not prolonged as it was during NPO's Last Time. When my side is wining I mostly stop fighting as there is no excitement to beat knocked out opponent.

You really should have just bribed NPO to go away last war. Likewise, NPO was dumb for not trying to extract massive reps. We really didn't need to go through the 8-9 months of that. Then again, having you guys dump 300-600 billion on NPO to get them to let you rebuild probably would have seen the same "MOLON LABE" crap we saw in the actual war.

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6 hours ago, Cherise said:

You really should have just bribed NPO to go away last war. Likewise, NPO was dumb for not trying to extract massive reps. We really didn't need to go through the 8-9 months of that. Then again, having you guys dump 300-600 billion on NPO to get them to let you rebuild probably would have seen the same "MOLON LABE" crap we saw in the actual war.

This is Inst right?  I can never keep up with the name changes a bunch of these shit posters do.  I ask, because this looks like a stupid Inst post.

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On 9/5/2021 at 7:50 PM, Daveth said:

Ask yourselves if he is truly the kind of leader you would like to follow.

So, the CB is an anti-Epi grudge match I take it?

Hey Krampus, the signature edit is under account settings. Actually, here's the link.

https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/settings/signature/

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