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The current state of Casus Belli suck (CB)


Zevari
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2 minutes ago, Malleator said:

Not our fault PnW mechanics are both poorly integrated with one another and poorly designed. 

But it is our fault for being boring on the RP side of things.

We can't play a game called politics and war and then blame the game mechanics for all our alliances having shitty politics.

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15 minutes ago, Zevari said:

- Cut down to size (You are growing too fast or are already too big, we want you to bleed) 
- Humiliate (for you guys with old grudges you want to settle but have no valid reason, just fight you chickens)
- Containment (You are doing something that is pissing everyone off, stop it) (this can be warmongering, unjustified actions or overbearing attitudes in past peace conferences)

These are literally the CBs of this war, you high?

16 minutes ago, Zevari said:

Ideology conflict (for alliances with RP reasons to have conflict, FA actions or alliance culture)
- Retribution (Justification against people who are housing players alliances are holding a grudge against. This could be traitors, spies, unjustified raiding done either directly by the alliance or indirectly through means such as leaving and joining raiders temporarily. Or hunting people who have unpaid debts or stole large sums of items/money)

This also happens a bunch lol

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Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines
Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order

 

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34 minutes ago, Zevari said:

Cut down to size (You are growing too fast or are already too big, we want you to bleed) 
- Humiliate (for you guys with old grudges you want to settle but have no valid reason, just fight you chickens)

Who do you think will admit these as their CB unless they also hurl "HeGeMoNy" at a sphere for the top one?

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It’s not really lack of CB that pisses me off. It’s when the entire game jumps on someone. I was in Swamp for Duck Hunt. Yea I thought it was fun at the time but afterwards it was like why? Why did we really need a 4v1? People just jumping into wars because they want an easy W. Come up with your own ideas. Start your own wars. Don’t ride bandwagons. There hasn’t been an even war ever since I’ve started playing this game in June 2020 besides maybe The Last Ride. So yea

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41 minutes ago, Suyash Adhikari said:

These are literally the CBs of this war, you high

The issue is the don't state then directly or immediately. If you need to go fishing for the reason someone went to war then you did it wrong.

A simple one liner does a wonderful job. You can put explanatory RP after that to make it a much smoother process. (also the reason I cited those is that they are all valid HISTORICAL in the real world, which makes them pretty legit in game if applied correctly. The current wars we have had just had people going "oh I guess we are using this reason".
 

25 minutes ago, Yzard said:

Who do you think will admit these as their CB unless they also hurl "HeGeMoNy" at a sphere for the top one?

I mean it's worth a shot. I rather look like an idiot trying to provide some sort of solution/discussion then complain about it all day long. (plus some of these reasons do get mentioned indirectly or very briefly)

57 minutes ago, MinesomeMC said:

nah ima just hit who i want whenever i want. Then i can make memes about it.

That's more direct then half the current wars being made to be fair.

55 minutes ago, WarriorSoul said:

tl;dr someone recently played stellaris

Or someone just knows what people historically used as a reason to go to war..... 

20 minutes ago, Arln Nen said:

It’s not really lack of CB that pisses me off. It’s when the entire game jumps on someone. I was in Swamp for Duck Hunt. Yea I thought it was fun at the time but afterwards it was like why? Why did we really need a 4v1? People just jumping into wars because they want an easy W. Come up with your own ideas. Start your own wars. Don’t ride bandwagons. There hasn’t been an even war ever since I’ve started playing this game in June 2020 besides maybe The Last Ride. So yea

I do agree with that, and that's why I said CB are currently worthless as is. The issue is, the current meta of the game doesn't make sense for alliances to fight in a fair manner. We don't stand to gain anything from individual conflicts so all we do now is beat up the strongest dudes to try force them into smaller blocs. (which we then dogpile again anyway)
If we actually had some incentive to winning fair wars you might actually see more interesting and dynamic events. (for example in a fair battle you could demand reparations for X percent of damage or maybe transfer all treasures owned/obtained until treaty expires)

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31 minutes ago, Zevari said:

The issue is the don't state then directly or immediately. If you need to go fishing for the reason someone went to war then you did it wrong.

A simple one liner does a wonderful job. You can put explanatory RP after that to make it a much smoother process. (also the reason I cited those is that they are all valid HISTORICAL in the real world, which makes them pretty legit in game if applied correctly. The current wars we have had just had people going "oh I guess we are using this reason".

Yes, Every States them directly. The Issue is whether the CB itself is valid, or should be used at all. Have you read any of the topics or declarations of war on the Forums? I think not.

31 minutes ago, Zevari said:

That's more direct then half the current wars being made to be fair.

That is the half the fun of going to war, talking and debating CBs.

You've been playing for 1.5 years, not that hard to grasp how the OWF and Politics works.

 

Edited by Suyash Adhikari

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Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines
Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order

 

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Sounds kinda toxic. And plus, I already posted a list of valid CBs.

Your list seems more like "I DONT LIKE YOU I WANT YOU TO QUIT GRRRRREEEEE" kind of fodder which is the worst kind of politics to care about. The recent CBs actually fit your list so long as you recognize the subtlety of a couple years of bickering.

Hey Krampus, the signature edit is under account settings. Actually, here's the link.

https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/settings/signature/

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The problem is that CB exists, or to be more precise a lot of people can't give explanations that make sense, this mostly because the CB they give you is not their real reason

On the other end CB give us a lot of forum pages filled with all the worst human feelings so that's great

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2 hours ago, Zevari said:

 

I do agree with that, and that's why I said CB are currently worthless as is. The issue is, the current meta of the game doesn't make sense for alliances to fight in a fair manner. We don't stand to gain anything from individual conflicts so all we do now is beat up the strongest dudes to try force them into smaller blocs. (which we then dogpile again anyway)
If we actually had some incentive to winning fair wars you might actually see more interesting and dynamic events. (for example in a fair battle you could demand reparations for X percent of damage or maybe transfer all treasures owned/obtained until treaty expires)

We stand to gain a game people can actually enjoy and see which alliances are actually good? 

               

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4 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

Sounds kinda toxic. And plus, I already posted a list of valid CBs.

Your list seems more like "I DONT LIKE YOU I WANT YOU TO QUIT GRRRRREEEEE" kind of fodder which is the worst kind of politics to care about. The recent CBs actually fit your list so long as you recognize the subtlety of a couple years of bickering.

To be fair those were meant as basic one line suggestions I said to expand upon. A lot of them were made using recent conflicts ingame and justifications from real world war. 
I have seen your 10 commandments before, they did influence a few of the ones I wrote hence the very similar nature to them. The reason I did that was to try make a way where people can actually write a cb someone can look at and go "ok they are going to war for reason A, their end goal is this and we should expect xyz outcome. Right now our current conflict is "Whale too strong, we must stop them" but no public attempt at creating a remedy is being made (at least on the forums for me to see).

Also I apologize for any perceived toxicity. I didn't experience the games major events that caused certain rulings, these are just things I feel like could be used to at least make the current environment a little more interested both diplomatically and war wise (since anyone could look at the RoH or DoW and see what the goal of the war is for both sides)

 

2 hours ago, Arln Nen said:

We stand to gain a game people can actually enjoy and see which alliances are actually good? 

Shocking news, a large majority of players DO NOT enjoy engaging in worthless wars that cause mass damage to their city. War without a massive coalition on your side just means you have to risk more to gain nothing... Great right?

So what is your solution to motivate the pixel huggers of all tiers into fighting offensive/defensive wars they don't want to fight? Or should they just quit because it isn't your idea of enjoyable?

5 hours ago, Micchan said:

The problem is that CB exists, or to be more precise a lot of people can't give explanations that make sense, this mostly because the CB they give you is not their real reason

On the other end CB give us a lot of forum pages filled with all the worst human feelings so that's great

Yeah I can agree with that. That's why I proposed a potential structure for CB after the suggestions. (I want people to actually expand upon the 2 words of justification inside the 1000 word essay they wrote)

5 hours ago, Worcestershire said:

I personally thought that our CB was too good

I mean from what I can tell you guys are basically at war for "Whale to strong, We hate GG due to past reasons". So what's the end goal? What's the plan to contain GG? Are you just gonna hit them for a bit and leave cause that doesn't solve the inherent problem of whale strong. 

5 hours ago, Suyash Adhikari said:

Yes, Every States them directly. The Issue is whether the CB itself is valid, or should be used at all. Have you read any of the topics or declarations of war on the Forums? I think not.

That is the half the fun of going to war, talking and debating CBs.

You've been playing for 1.5 years, not that hard to grasp how the OWF and Politics works.

 

Ah yes state directly. Is that why the current war needed two forum posts to actually explain what the CB was? Very direct!

Also It's fine to debate the CB and argue on the forums, but if the argument is over WHAT the CB is and not WHY it is that. Well we have an issue now, don't we.

Yeah I've been playing for 1.5 years and I'm already bored of the same shit being spewed over and over. These days it is either "sekret treaties" or "hEgeMonY" being yelled at each other. 

 

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12 hours ago, Zevari said:

So lets address CB's….

The presence (or not), and the quality of any proffered CB is I think primarily a reflection of the politics and leaders of the day.  Being a game, these things ideally ought to be manufactured to the extent that it is comprehensible to the majority of affected players so that (within reason) everyone playing can be meaningfully involved.  Clearly a long standing personal grudge that literally has nothing to do with >90% of Orbis as the primary reason for a global war is a big bag of turds for the majority of us, and is bound to precipitate some brisk feedback.

Also there’s a philosophical line with the arguments regarding CB’s, the old…if there’s no right or wrong, then it matters little what you do.  Perhaps also a trend towards vacuous or absent CB’s reflects a decline in depth of character and themes?  Sure there is great art, funny and cleverly themed posts here and there, but is there enough genuine rp from enough members to create the conditions for real political manoeuvring and conflict?  How many socialist themed aa’s truly rp socialism?  Arrgh is probably one of the truest to theme alliances.  Really I’m not sure about the validity of this idea, but maybe worth considering imo.

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Celer Et Audax

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20 minutes ago, Etat said:

The presence (or not), and the quality of any proffered CB is I think primarily a reflection of the politics and leaders of the day.  Being a game, these things ideally ought to be manufactured to the extent that it is comprehensible to the majority of affected players so that (within reason) everyone playing can be meaningfully involved.  Clearly a long standing personal grudge that literally has nothing to do with >90% of Orbis as the primary reason for a global war is a big bag of turds for the majority of us, and is bound to precipitate some brisk feedback.

Also there’s a philosophical line with the arguments regarding CB’s, the old…if there’s no right or wrong, then it matters little what you do.  Perhaps also a trend towards vacuous or absent CB’s reflects a decline in depth of character and themes?  Sure there is great art, funny and cleverly themed posts here and there, but is there enough genuine rp from enough members to create the conditions for real political manoeuvring and conflict?  How many socialist themed aa’s truly rp socialism?  Arrgh is probably one of the truest to theme alliances.  Really I’m not sure about the validity of this idea, but maybe worth considering imo.

I entirely agree with you here, and this is why I made this thread. (to try and make this discussion)

This area of the game is severely lacking compared to other political aspects. I mean we literally have talk casinos, banks, talk shows and even major news outlets but we can't write a proper deceleration of war. 

It would be interesting to see more of the player base actually involved in rp and proper political maneuvering as you said, but the question is how would we make that a reality.

7 minutes ago, Redarmy said:

@Kurdanak and I would like to go back to the old times. Were you post your CB before any wars declare. 

I mean that is fair, it gives other alliances time to react and make some diplomatic moves which would at least be more interesting then the current standard we have.

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7 hours ago, Zevari said:

Yeah I can agree with that. That's why I proposed a potential structure for CB after the suggestions. (I want people to actually expand upon the 2 words of justification inside the 1000 word essay they wrote)

I'm not sure a strict structure is appropriate since its good to allow for stylistic differences, however a structured CB breakdown is absolutely lacking in most cases. I imagine the modern post style is particularly difficult to approach for new players considering it likely takes years of playing for many people to decide if the current CB is valid or not. 

And its often not even a 1000 word essay... it's usually some abomination akin to fan fiction that obfuscates the actual point in favor of putting people's names in irrelevant stories. Notable exceptions exist of course. 

Hey Krampus, the signature edit is under account settings. Actually, here's the link.

https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/settings/signature/

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33 minutes ago, zigbigadorlou said:

I'm not sure a strict structure is appropriate since its good to allow for stylistic differences, however a structured CB breakdown is absolutely lacking in most cases. 

Yeah, a strict structure never helps anyone but if the community could come together and actually formulate a proper guide on how the CB itself should be presented it would work wonders. (A radio show should consider grabbing a representative from all major alliances/players for this)

I'm not saying people should stop writing their 1000 word essays, fan-fictions or one liners for a war declaration. I am just saying they should be direct with the CB itself, I don't mind reading those posts alliances make but it annoys me when I have to re-read and connect the dots to figure out the reason/goal of the war.

Plus if we are being honest, the way in which each alliance styles their CB typically demonstrates their desired culture, I quite enjoy that aspect we have right now.

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1 hour ago, Zevari said:

(A radio show should consider grabbing a representative from all major alliances/players for this)

If you're interested in making that happen, DM me on discord as I'm involved with several radio shows. 

Hey Krampus, the signature edit is under account settings. Actually, here's the link.

https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/settings/signature/

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