A Treatise on the Current War

[Benfro]

2 hours ago, Kurdanak said:

Actual footage of TKR FA when they came to the realization that people lie and deceive on the internet:

In a game specifically designed for conflict, no less! 😱 

It's also a game of relationship development and bond building and breaking. I have several people I've met through this game that are RL friends now...so what do ya know, it can work. I'm not doe eyed enough to think the internet is a great place, nor that everyone tells the truth. I do choose to spend my relationship capital intentionally, however, and when it gets thrown back in my face, that sucks. A lot.

Anyway, this thread has been good. I'm a fan.

[Kurdanak]

35 minutes ago, Benfro said:

It's also a game of relationship development and bond building and breaking. I have several people I've met through this game that are RL friends now...so what do ya know, it can work. I'm not doe eyed enough to think the internet is a great place, nor that everyone tells the truth. I do choose to spend my relationship capital intentionally, however, and when it gets thrown back in my face, that sucks. A lot.

Anyway, this thread has been good. I'm a fan.

hello Ben! I consider several people on the other side of this war genuine friends regardless of what happens in P&W (in fact, I seriously enjoy fighting my friends, I hope someday I'll be big enough to tangle with Beli 🙏). Speaking as an observer, considering the circumstances of HW and its formation, I think this war was a given eventuality. I am sorry that those investments didn't pay out quite as planned in terms of IC impact, but you seriously shouldn't be surprised. Actions have consequences, and I'm sure our action here will have its own. That's the nature of the game. I'm incredibly confused by the expectation of "transparency," here, to be honest. In the immortal words of Sweeeeet Ronny D,

On 4/5/2021 at 12:55 PM, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

For the record, the game isn't called War and War, its called Politics and War.  You use politics to help you win wars...

Except in this case, re: deescalation attempts, I suppose we're looking to axe the War part as well. Welcome to "&." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess that'd be a cultural victory for you, @Kiloist II @HannaH 

(nice gif btw!)

[Micchan]

1 hour ago, Kurdanak said:

I guess that'd be a cultural victory for you

It's always cultural victory for us because Hollywood movies are the most effective propaganda

Already making war movies where we are the good guys and you're the bad guys

Benfro = Tom Hanks, Ronny = Bill Murray, Memph = Morgan Freeman, Yoso = Jackie Chan, how can you hate these guys? I will kill your reputation with one movie

Also you're Sean Bean, no need to tell you how it's going to end

[Avatar Patrick]

4 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

But it's ok little baby nation, if you guys can keep us pinned with your little pudgy baby arms for the next 2-3 years you might become big and stronk, and get to sit at the adult's table.

daaaaamn bro. If you miss IQ that much, just say so 😂

[Micchan]

36 minutes ago, Avatar Patrick said:

daaaaamn bro. If you miss IQ that much, just say so 😂

He's missing a lot of IQ but not that IQ

[Cooper_]

6 hours ago, Kurdanak said:

Actual footage of TKR FA when they came to the realization that people lie and deceive on the internet:

The thing is that the politics of this game only works because we have certain agreements.  Without those constraints, we don't have a cohesive Orbis.  The fact that you lied isn't in itself extremely problematic, but it speaks to a larger trend of Rose that continually pushes the border of what is acceptable in the meta to its own interests.

Rose was part of the coalition that established the precedent on secret treaties after all during KF.  Rose later decided it could do what it wanted.  Rose was a main pusher of the mini sphere narrative under Mhearl.  Rose has yet to enter a global war by itself.  We also have established norms of communication as people are generally expected to interact publicly and make arguments.  Rose is often nowhere to be seen on IC wavelengths.  Wars without a CB and actual grudge wars are often looked down upon.  Rose casts a legitimate war and CB as a grudge and then later comes in without a CB and on a grudge. 

You then get bent out of shape when people have a reason to point out that you're not sticking to even the principles you set up beforehand.  You could probably even pull off the realpolitik if you had the gumption to attempt to defend your stances and accept the consequences.  But you don't do either, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.  

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Cooper_

[Indger]

T$ is full of envy. That's all.

[Adrienne]

6 hours ago, Kurdanak said:

Welcome to "&." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"&" sounds like a wonderful game. Full of possibilities.

[Leftbehind]

2 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

The thing is that the politics of this game only works because we have certain agreements.  Without those constraints, we don't have a cohesive Orbis.  The fact that you lied isn't in itself extremely problematic, but it speaks to a larger trend of Rose that continually pushes the border of what is acceptable in the meta to its own interests.

Rose was part of the coalition that established the precedent on secret treaties after all during KF.  Rose later decided it could do what it wanted.  Rose was a main pusher of the mini sphere narrative under Mhearl.  Rose has yet to enter a global war by itself.  We also have established norms of communication as people are generally expected to interact publicly and make arguments.  Rose is often nowhere to be seen on IC wavelengths.  Wars without a CB and actual grudge wars are often looked down upon.  Rose casts a legitimate war and CB as a grudge and then later comes in without a CB and on a grudge. 

You then get bent out of shape when people have a reason to point out that you're not sticking to even the principles you set up beforehand.  You could probably even pull off the realpolitik if you had the gumption to attempt to defend your stances and accept the consequences.  But you don't do either, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.  

 

Can you please do the whole world a favor and list all the do's and don'ts that you keep referring too? This way anyone thats wasn't playing 6 years ago can keep up. 

[Vemek]

5 hours ago, Etat said:

The notion you've expressed that TKR might have avoided this war is clearly nonsense.  It is apparent that you've fully intended to act against us from the beginning.  You complaining that we didn't advert to you our plans after you issued your intent to exit our sphere is ridiculous.  Retrospectively it is quite apparent that not keeping you informed was the right choice; the importance you've assigned to your own designs for the whale/upper tier is apparently to be achieved by any means, even burning your capital with TKR.  That you care less for this speaks more of the value you held for our relationship than it does against TKR, and suggests a systemic pathology in your reasoning and mindset.  You may take note of this and reflect, however I guess most megalomaniacs are blind to the signs everyone else can see.  It follows that by TKR not occupying a subservient role to you, not bowing to your apparent expectation to respect and facilitate your plans against Grumpy, and finally by hitting Rose against your wishes (the final straw it seems) that yes I can see now that war was at least on the cards.

Jfc it's not that complicated. Intel clauses work as long as the treaty is active. The treaty was active when you guys planned a war and signed into a new sphere. We were not made aware of this. 

5 hours ago, Etat said:

Regarding your long standing opposition against Grumpy; you are dissembling when legitimizing your actions using terms like 'hegemon' and 'whale tier domination'.  Your PR is a veneer thin disguise over what I believe to be the real issue(s) evidenced in the tone of your subsequent posts: probably interpersonal, maybe justifiable in a historical context, but mostly a seeming desire to dominate (or more charitably, to at least not be dominated by) the whale and upper tiers.

t$ PR claims contained in your treatise including 'Game Health', and security concerns engendered by the counter militarization of HW should be considered well and truly debunked.  Not only are the actual numbers and the nature of the game meta contrary to your claims, the explicit messages, tones and themes contained in your responses here give falsity to your official line.  Ben's attempts at communication were in vain because this "war was inevitable".

I guess however you guys are taking steps to resolve the political stagnation that irks you so.

This is literally just saying "you're wrong, we're right" except it's wrapped up in a bunch of unnecessary wordage.

We have elaborated heavily on why GG has a stranglehold on the whale tier, I must be dogshit at this game because I don't know what 'actual numbers' and 'game meta' you're talking about. People on your own side have even elaborated on why the war mechanics are ill-suited to deal with GG's whale tier. 

If the best point you can argue is 'ooooo you lied to us' (which in and of itself is false), then you ought to find a better point because all it boils down to us saying we didn't and your side saying "no I don't believe you". There's nothing to argue about there, it's all just your word against ours.

also lol at you calling us megalomaniacs.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Vemek

[Shiho Nishizumi]

The split was something that was mutually elaborated on and understood as needing to happen, as both parties felt that Quack had more or less run it's course. So this idea that it was somehow unilaterally t$ doing it, let alone t$ leaving TKR in a lurch, is nonsense.

It's also nonsense that TKR had to suddenly figure out what it was to do post Quack, because they had already received a pitch by GG on basically what became HW earlier this year. Signing HM wasn't the last ditch, necessitated by circumstance thing that it's seemingly being made out to be, but rather the avenue they already had at their disposal before split talks had even seriously happened. 

[Sval]

TL;DR:

"We have legitimate concerns!"
"No you don't!"
"Yes we do!"
"No you don't!"
"Yes we do!"

[Benfro]

1 hour ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

The split was something that was mutually elaborated on and understood as needing to happen, as both parties felt that Quack had more or less run it's course. So this idea that it was somehow unilaterally t$ doing it, let alone t$ leaving TKR in a lurch, is nonsense.

It's also nonsense that TKR had to suddenly figure out what it was to do post Quack, because they had already received a pitch by GG on basically what became HW earlier this year. Signing HM wasn't the last ditch, necessitated by circumstance thing that it's seemingly being made out to be, but rather the avenue they already had at their disposal before split talks had even seriously happened. 

Personally not pinning blame on t$, by the time @Emperor Adam and I formally talked about dissolving Quack, I think both sides were expecting it. That said, expecting us to be entirely forthcoming on our post-Quack plans while allied is a little bit rich, even if you may have seen it coming. I think the hangup is the argument that we withheld information for the last month of Quack, etc. while we were still fully engaged in planning and playing within Quack (we even proposed a war against, then with, our now allies).

[Kaz]

7 hours ago, Leftbehind said:

Can you please do the whole world a favor and list all the do's and don'ts that you keep referring too? This way anyone thats wasn't playing 6 years ago can keep up. 

Yea, I’ve been wondering the same.   After 2 1/2 years of analysis, I believe this means that certain forum spinners can DO anything and justify it with the same tired copy paste crap they spam here war after war.  I believe the DON’Ts refer to all of the things the rest of Orbis is prohibited from doing to respond.   But what do I know?  I’m just a game noob these days.  

Perhaps there’s an answer in the meta?  

[Leftbehind]

1 hour ago, Kaz said:

Yea, I’ve been wondering the same.   After 2 1/2 years of analysis, I believe this means that certain forum spinners can DO anything and justify it with the same tired copy paste crap they spam here war after war.  I believe the DON’Ts refer to all of the things the rest of Orbis is prohibited from doing to respond.   But what do I know?  I’m just a game noob these days.  

Perhaps there’s an answer in the meta?  

Ah yes, the great wise meta. Praise be the meta! 

The only reason I'm even mentioning this is that we are treating it as if it's unchanging. The reality is there is a huge part of Alliance Leadership that wasn't involved in KF or even NPOLT, so trying to pretend that there is some standard we need to follow is absolutely ridiculous. Especially when it's tied to a history lesson that no one cares about. 

If you want to argue the CB or Rose actions, than argue it but quit going back to the grandpa Simpson rants about yesteryear. 

[Cooper_]

53 minutes ago, Leftbehind said:

Ah yes, the great wise meta. Praise be the meta! 

The only reason I'm even mentioning this is that we are treating it as if it's unchanging. The reality is there is a huge part of Alliance Leadership that wasn't involved in KF or even NPOLT, so trying to pretend that there is some standard we need to follow is absolutely ridiculous. Especially when it's tied to a history lesson that no one cares about. 

If you want to argue the CB or Rose actions, than argue it but quit going back to the grandpa Simpson rants about yesteryear. 

I don't think you're responding to my point against Rose.  Frankly, I agree that the meta is fluid and changing, but when people change the meta they have to raise arguments and defend their positions.  This is especially true when they're being inconsistent with their own previous stances.  The KF point is specifically raised bc of Rose's presence as a key player in pushing it.

Rose continually tries to distort the meta and push the boundaries on the informal agreements we all share to their benefit, and then tries everything possible to avoid accountability or even taking a legitimate stance to defend their actions.  When someone else calls them out on their inconsistency, shady actions, and attempts to hide from any public discourse on their actions, they get mad and defensive (often via a stream of DMs that never sees the light of day because again no accountability).

This is one of the crucial differences for why our relationship with HM and Rose turned out so differently post-DH.  At least y'all took a stance, and at least we could have a discussion and make attempts to justify our actions to each other and adjust accordingly.  Rose didn't heed a word nor budge an inch.  

[Kaz]

2 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

I don't think you're responding to my point against Rose.  Frankly, I agree that the meta is fluid and changing, but when people change the meta they have to raise arguments and defend their positions.  This is especially true when they're being inconsistent with their own previous stances.  The KF point is specifically raised bc of Rose's presence as a key player in pushing it.

Rose continually tries to distort the meta and push the boundaries on the informal agreements we all share to their benefit, and then tries everything possible to avoid accountability or even taking a legitimate stance to defend their actions.  When someone else calls them out on their inconsistency, shady actions, and attempts to hide from any public discourse on their actions, they get mad and defensive (often via a stream of DMs that never sees the light of day because again no accountability).

This is one of the crucial differences for why our relationship with HM and Rose turned out so differently post-DH.  At least y'all took a stance, and at least we could have a discussion and make attempts to justify our actions to each other and adjust accordingly.  Rose didn't heed a word nor budge an inch.  

I just want to make sure I’m reading this right.   The alliance who left Quack, formed Hollywood, and launched another trillion + dollar global, all straddling the same day change turn, actually has the balls to call somebody else shady?   Let’s ignore the fact that they were unmilitarized too!

Wow.   Just...plain...wow!  Thinking I need some of that meta weed you’re smokin’!

**The views expressed in this program do not represent the opinions of our staff or management here at WABC radio or any of our affiliates.**

[Eumirbago]

15 hours ago, Etat said:

Weakness

And @Eumirbago are you kidding???  The only alliance  

I guess however you guys are taking steps to resolve the political stagnation that irks you so.

Yes. The one and only.

[Adrienne]

6 hours ago, Kaz said:

I just want to make sure I’m reading this right.   The alliance who left Quack, formed Hollywood, and launched another trillion + dollar global, all straddling the same day change turn, actually has the balls to call somebody else shady?   Let’s ignore the fact that they were unmilitarized too!

Wow.   Just...plain...wow!  Thinking I need some of that meta weed you’re smokin’!

**The views expressed in this program do not represent the opinions of our staff or management here at WABC radio or any of our affiliates.**

I think you need a dictionary. Luckily I have so many readily available given the dubious literacy of this game.

[Kaz]

11 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I think you need a dictionary. Luckily I have so many readily available given the dubious literacy of this game.

Rule #1. When losing the argument and the war, insult your opponent’s intelligence for up clicks from your own alliance. 

Well, back during Knightfall and Papers Please we didn’t play this way I’ll have you know!  😂 

[Maia]

19 hours ago, Kaz said:

I just want to make sure I’m reading this right.   The alliance who left Quack, formed Hollywood, and launched another trillion + dollar global, all straddling the same day change turn, actually has the balls to call somebody else shady?   Let’s ignore the fact that they were unmilitarized too!

Wow.   Just...plain...wow!  Thinking I need some of that meta weed you’re smokin’!

**The views expressed in this program do not represent the opinions of our staff or management here at WABC radio or any of our affiliates.**

We are smoking a lot of good stuff at Hollywood. Unlike you have to whoring yourself to others - first to Oasis and now to Ts, and next stop should be Johnsons and revange on Oblivion *wink* *wink*

[Adrienne]

19 minutes ago, Kaz said:

Rule #1. When losing the argument and the war, insult your opponent’s intelligence for up clicks from your own alliance. 

Well, back during Knightfall and Papers Please we didn’t play this way I’ll have you know!  😂 

I think you need to revisit that as I neither insulted your intelligence nor did anyone from my alliance upvote. I questioned your usage of the word "shady" to describe those actions. Your #1 is quite clearly: "When losing the argument, pull out a 'no u', even if it doesn't make sense."

Regarding the rest of what you said in this thread, you'll forgive me if I ignore you since you blaming "trillion-dollar wars" on TKR is a pastime of yours, just like when you decided to pin NPOLT on us. I look forward to seeing what your next hot take is. 

[Micchan]

7 hours ago, Kaz said:

Rule #1. When losing the argument and the war, insult your opponent’s intelligence for up clicks from your own alliance. 

Well, back during Knightfall and Papers Please we didn’t play this way I’ll have you know!  😂 

HAHA YOUR DUMB

Joking btw, I don't lose arguments

Edited August 27, 2021 by Micchan

[Ripper]

1 hour ago, Micchan said:

HAHA YOU'RE DUMB

Joking btw, I don't lose arguments

Should have gone for "YOUR DUMB", for extra impact.

[Micchan]

1 hour ago, Ripper said:

Should have gone for "YOUR DUMB", for extra impact.

Done