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A Treatise on the Current War


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1 hour ago, Cooper_ said:

Ben asked you about working together to demilitarize.  You indicated interest in the conversation.  You hit us later that day.  Just because it isn't surprising that you guys hit off a grudge that you claimed we've been having all of this time, doesn't mean we should be happy that you flippantly deceived us.  

Ben actually had some trust in you, and we had a 2-hours-long conversation about how TKR didn't have any problem with Rose as long as you guys made an effort to be transparent.  Now the first opportunity you had to show the slightest bit, you went back to the same old ways despite new FA head and all.  

You could've even said nothing.  Instead, you lied to our faces.  Again.

Why do you frame your public conversations on the basis that people should somehow spend their time in the game striving to appease/impress TKR and it’s representatives?  And then when they don’t, they’re tediously labelled cowards and liars.  

Would it just make things easier in future if you sit in the FA channels of every sphere so that you can decide in advance what is acceptable to TKR and what isn’t?

 

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34 minutes ago, Harry Flashman said:

Why do you frame your public conversations on the basis that people should somehow spend their time in the game striving to appease/impress TKR and it’s representatives?

If simple transparency is your idea of "appeasement", that speaks more to your position on transparency than it does to our desire to be appeased or impressed.

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19 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

The point I'm making, is that there exist multiple strategies for dealing with the very real issue of retaining an upper tier in addition to growing it. But just using the same CB over and over again hoping for a military solution when the issue is primarily an economic one is just missing the point entirely.

Going off of @Hodor's pace of buying cities, you guys are doing a mediocre job.

Our upper tier are buying cities at a pace of about 30-40 days

7 hours ago, zigbigadorlou said:

What do you have against @Eumirbago? Eumirbago is a loyal and valued member I thought? I feel like you guys don't show eumir nearly enough respect. 

Like you, I can if I want to, but I'm not @Sweeeeet Ronny D. Both of us don't have to flip flop our position on what our words mean on different platforms. I keep it a buck and we make and have made a majority, if not all, of these alliances our !@#$es

7 hours ago, WarriorSoul said:

are we all actually supposed to believe the "*sigh*, if only we at The Syndicate could have avoided this entirely unwanted and unnecessary war through better communication..." bit coming out of the t$ camp?

strikes me as incredibly disingenuous given that, almost to a person, the narrative is "g/g bad for the meta, they obviously have to be rolled", which is perhaps the longest consistent stance any alliance has maintained in history. just own that shit lmao

We own it, now they are going to get clapped about 2-4 more times until they are at my size. You can come along for the ride, we don't care.

3 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

This isn't a response to the point I made, this is you deflecting taking responsibility for your part in making what you feel is stagnate politics. 

Also I didn't insult my former allies, I said they left because they wanted to take a war off, which isn't an insult, it was one of the reasons they gave us for wanting to leave.  I dont see that as an insult, I would love to take a war off, but as a point of who we are, we generally dont get that luxury.

We won't be stagnating politics because you guys will be leveled to my level.

We also generally don't get that luxury. We are the only alliance in the game where we are !@#$ed if we do and !@#$ed if we don't

2 hours ago, WarriorSoul said:

If simple transparency is your idea of "appeasement", that speaks more to your position on transparency than it does to our desire to be appeased or impressed.

I'll be transparent for you and everybody else don't worry.

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26 minutes ago, Eumirbago said:

Going off of @Hodor's pace of buying cities, you guys are doing a mediocre job.

Our upper tier are buying cities at a pace of about 30-40 days

Like you, I can if I want to, but I'm not @Sweeeeet Ronny D. Both of us don't have to flip flop our position on what our words mean on different platforms. I keep it a buck and we make and have made a majority, if not all, of these alliances our !@#$es

We own it, now they are going to get clapped about 2-4 more times until they are at my size. You can come along for the ride, we don't care.

We won't be stagnating politics because you guys will be leveled to my level.

We also generally don't get that luxury. We are the only alliance in the game where we are !@#$ed if we do and !@#$ed if we don't

I'll be transparent for you and everybody else don't worry.

Cute little baby nation, you are so cute fighting in the lower tiers.  I am getting destroyed right now, and you are still out of range for me.  But it's ok little baby nation, if you guys can keep us pinned with your little pudgy baby arms for the next 2-3 years you might become big and stronk, and get to sit at the adult's table.

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18 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Cute little baby nation, you are so cute fighting in the lower tiers.  I am getting destroyed right now, and you are still out of range for me.  But it's ok little baby nation, if you guys can keep us pinned with your little pudgy baby arms for the next 2-3 years you might become big and stronk, and get to sit at the adult's table.

Not an if lmfao

Look at our pace and you’ll see why I only say 2-4 more wars

Edit: Also:

image.png.b965fd12e98814cc06b0aa64a5760fb6.png

Edited by Eumirbago
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1 hour ago, Eumirbago said:

Going off of @Hodor's pace of buying cities, you guys are doing a mediocre job.

Our upper tier are buying cities at a pace of about 30-40 days

Like you, I can if I want to, but I'm not @Sweeeeet Ronny D. Both of us don't have to flip flop our position on what our words mean on different platforms. I keep it a buck and we make and have made a majority, if not all, of these alliances our !@#$es

We own it, now they are going to get clapped about 2-4 more times until they are at my size. You can come along for the ride, we don't care.

We won't be stagnating politics because you guys will be leveled to my level.

We also generally don't get that luxury. We are the only alliance in the game where we are !@#$ed if we do and !@#$ed if we don't

I'll be transparent for you and everybody else don't worry.

Heh, I've actually managed to do much the same rate of growth over the past year. 30ish days between city purchases along with project purchases and umm 3 wars? Or is it 4 now? 🤷‍♂️ I could have probably added another city or two for that matter but I decided to make a rather large stash for rebuilding purposes too.

But yeah, 20-30 days is the standard time between city purchases in our tier. Whales see that extend a bit depending on build and all.

 

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2 hours ago, Kurdanak said:

Actual footage of TKR FA when they came to the realization that people lie and deceive on the internet:

lbUbP2t.gif

In a game specifically designed for conflict, no less! 😱 

It's also a game of relationship development and bond building and breaking. I have several people I've met through this game that are RL friends now...so what do ya know, it can work. I'm not doe eyed enough to think the internet is a great place, nor that everyone tells the truth. I do choose to spend my relationship capital intentionally, however, and when it gets thrown back in my face, that sucks. A lot.

Anyway, this thread has been good. I'm a fan.
giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47mgxi91ds5d25nmjaox

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35 minutes ago, Benfro said:

It's also a game of relationship development and bond building and breaking. I have several people I've met through this game that are RL friends now...so what do ya know, it can work. I'm not doe eyed enough to think the internet is a great place, nor that everyone tells the truth. I do choose to spend my relationship capital intentionally, however, and when it gets thrown back in my face, that sucks. A lot.

Anyway, this thread has been good. I'm a fan.

hello Ben! I consider several people on the other side of this war genuine friends regardless of what happens in P&W (in fact, I seriously enjoy fighting my friends, I hope someday I'll be big enough to tangle with Beli 🙏). Speaking as an observer, considering the circumstances of HW and its formation, I think this war was a given eventuality. I am sorry that those investments didn't pay out quite as planned in terms of IC impact, but you seriously shouldn't be surprised. Actions have consequences, and I'm sure our action here will have its own. That's the nature of the game. I'm incredibly confused by the expectation of "transparency," here, to be honest. In the immortal words of Sweeeeet Ronny D,

On 4/5/2021 at 12:55 PM, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

For the record, the game isn't called War and War, its called Politics and War.  You use politics to help you win wars...

Except in this case, re: deescalation attempts, I suppose we're looking to axe the War part as well. Welcome to "&." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess that'd be a cultural victory for you, @Kiloist II @HannaH :P

(nice gif btw!)

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1 hour ago, Kurdanak said:

I guess that'd be a cultural victory for you

It's always cultural victory for us because Hollywood movies are the most effective propaganda

Already making war movies where we are the good guys and you're the bad guys

Benfro = Tom Hanks, Ronny = Bill Murray, Memph = Morgan Freeman, Yoso = Jackie Chan, how can you hate these guys? I will kill your reputation with one movie

Also you're Sean Bean, no need to tell you how it's going to end

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4 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

But it's ok little baby nation, if you guys can keep us pinned with your little pudgy baby arms for the next 2-3 years you might become big and stronk, and get to sit at the adult's table.

daaaaamn bro. If you miss IQ that much, just say so 😂

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10 hours ago, Harry Flashman said:

...We wanted to listen because for all we knew you were going to say that on reflection the formation of Hollywood was misjudged and a bit of a slap in the face to your previous allies, given the attempt to secure for yourselves the top tier for the foreseeable future...

 

9 hours ago, Emperor Adam said:

As I've mentioned to TKR, there's honestly a big chance this war would've been avoided were it not for the debut war on Rose. An ex-ally who'd hidden things from t$ the last month or so of our treaty signing our biggest rival and immediately rolling out on the only other aa in the game that you claim can 1v1 GG set off every alarm in the building...

I think after the debut this war was inevitable...

 

4 hours ago, Eumirbago said:

We own it, now they are going to get clapped about 2-4 more times until they are at my size. You can come along for the ride, we don't care.

We won't be stagnating politics because you guys will be leveled to my level.

We also generally don't get that luxury. We are the only alliance in the game where we are !@#$ed if we do and !@#$ed if we don't...


The notion you've expressed that TKR might have avoided this war is clearly nonsense.  It is apparent that you've fully intended to act against us from the beginning.  You complaining that we didn't advert to you our plans after you issued your intent to exit our sphere is ridiculous.  Retrospectively it is quite apparent that not keeping you informed was the right choice; the importance you've assigned to your own designs for the whale/upper tier is apparently to be achieved by any means, even burning your capital with TKR.  That you care less for this speaks more of the value you held for our relationship than it does against TKR, and suggests a systemic pathology in your reasoning and mindset.  You may take note of this and reflect, however I guess most megalomaniacs are blind to the signs everyone else can see.  It follows that by TKR not occupying a subservient role to you, not bowing to your apparent expectation to respect and facilitate your plans against Grumpy, and finally by hitting Rose against your wishes (the final straw it seems) that yes I can see now that war was at least on the cards.

Regarding your long standing opposition against Grumpy; you are dissembling when legitimizing your actions using terms like 'hegemon' and 'whale tier domination'.  Your PR is a veneer thin disguise over what I believe to be the real issue(s) evidenced in the tone of your subsequent posts: probably interpersonal, maybe justifiable in a historical context, but mostly a seeming desire to dominate (or more charitably, to at least not be dominated by) the whale and upper tiers.

t$ PR claims contained in your treatise including 'Game Health', and security concerns engendered by the counter militarization of HW should be considered well and truly debunked.  Not only are the actual numbers and the nature of the game meta contrary to your claims, the explicit messages, tones and themes contained in your responses here give falsity to your official line.  Ben's attempts at communication were in vain because this "war was inevitable".

And @Eumirbago are you kidding???  The only alliance :lol: 

I guess however you guys are taking steps to resolve the political stagnation that irks you so.

Celer Et Audax

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6 hours ago, Kurdanak said:

Actual footage of TKR FA when they came to the realization that people lie and deceive on the internet:

The thing is that the politics of this game only works because we have certain agreements.  Without those constraints, we don't have a cohesive Orbis.  The fact that you lied isn't in itself extremely problematic, but it speaks to a larger trend of Rose that continually pushes the border of what is acceptable in the meta to its own interests.

Rose was part of the coalition that established the precedent on secret treaties after all during KF.  Rose later decided it could do what it wanted.  Rose was a main pusher of the mini sphere narrative under Mhearl.  Rose has yet to enter a global war by itself.  We also have established norms of communication as people are generally expected to interact publicly and make arguments.  Rose is often nowhere to be seen on IC wavelengths.  Wars without a CB and actual grudge wars are often looked down upon.  Rose casts a legitimate war and CB as a grudge and then later comes in without a CB and on a grudge. 

You then get bent out of shape when people have a reason to point out that you're not sticking to even the principles you set up beforehand.  You could probably even pull off the realpolitik if you had the gumption to attempt to defend your stances and accept the consequences.  But you don't do either, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.  

 

Edited by Cooper_
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2 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

The thing is that the politics of this game only works because we have certain agreements.  Without those constraints, we don't have a cohesive Orbis.  The fact that you lied isn't in itself extremely problematic, but it speaks to a larger trend of Rose that continually pushes the border of what is acceptable in the meta to its own interests.

Rose was part of the coalition that established the precedent on secret treaties after all during KF.  Rose later decided it could do what it wanted.  Rose was a main pusher of the mini sphere narrative under Mhearl.  Rose has yet to enter a global war by itself.  We also have established norms of communication as people are generally expected to interact publicly and make arguments.  Rose is often nowhere to be seen on IC wavelengths.  Wars without a CB and actual grudge wars are often looked down upon.  Rose casts a legitimate war and CB as a grudge and then later comes in without a CB and on a grudge. 

You then get bent out of shape when people have a reason to point out that you're not sticking to even the principles you set up beforehand.  You could probably even pull off the realpolitik if you had the gumption to attempt to defend your stances and accept the consequences.  But you don't do either, and you can't have your cake and eat it too.  

 

Can you please do the whole world a favor and list all the do's and don'ts that you keep referring too? This way anyone thats wasn't playing 6 years ago can keep up. 

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FORMER LEADER OF COTL. PLEASE GROW INTERNALLY

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5 hours ago, Etat said:

The notion you've expressed that TKR might have avoided this war is clearly nonsense.  It is apparent that you've fully intended to act against us from the beginning.  You complaining that we didn't advert to you our plans after you issued your intent to exit our sphere is ridiculous.  Retrospectively it is quite apparent that not keeping you informed was the right choice; the importance you've assigned to your own designs for the whale/upper tier is apparently to be achieved by any means, even burning your capital with TKR.  That you care less for this speaks more of the value you held for our relationship than it does against TKR, and suggests a systemic pathology in your reasoning and mindset.  You may take note of this and reflect, however I guess most megalomaniacs are blind to the signs everyone else can see.  It follows that by TKR not occupying a subservient role to you, not bowing to your apparent expectation to respect and facilitate your plans against Grumpy, and finally by hitting Rose against your wishes (the final straw it seems) that yes I can see now that war was at least on the cards.

Jfc it's not that complicated. Intel clauses work as long as the treaty is active. The treaty was active when you guys planned a war and signed into a new sphere. We were not made aware of this. 

5 hours ago, Etat said:

Regarding your long standing opposition against Grumpy; you are dissembling when legitimizing your actions using terms like 'hegemon' and 'whale tier domination'.  Your PR is a veneer thin disguise over what I believe to be the real issue(s) evidenced in the tone of your subsequent posts: probably interpersonal, maybe justifiable in a historical context, but mostly a seeming desire to dominate (or more charitably, to at least not be dominated by) the whale and upper tiers.

t$ PR claims contained in your treatise including 'Game Health', and security concerns engendered by the counter militarization of HW should be considered well and truly debunked.  Not only are the actual numbers and the nature of the game meta contrary to your claims, the explicit messages, tones and themes contained in your responses here give falsity to your official line.  Ben's attempts at communication were in vain because this "war was inevitable".

I guess however you guys are taking steps to resolve the political stagnation that irks you so.

This is literally just saying "you're wrong, we're right" except it's wrapped up in a bunch of unnecessary wordage.

We have elaborated heavily on why GG has a stranglehold on the whale tier, I must be dogshit at this game because I don't know what 'actual numbers' and 'game meta' you're talking about. People on your own side have even elaborated on why the war mechanics are ill-suited to deal with GG's whale tier. 

If the best point you can argue is 'ooooo you lied to us' (which in and of itself is false), then you ought to find a better point because all it boils down to us saying we didn't and your side saying "no I don't believe you". There's nothing to argue about there, it's all just your word against ours.

also lol at you calling us megalomaniacs.

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The split was something that was mutually elaborated on and understood as needing to happen, as both parties felt that Quack had more or less run it's course. So this idea that it was somehow unilaterally t$ doing it, let alone t$ leaving TKR in a lurch, is nonsense.

It's also nonsense that TKR had to suddenly figure out what it was to do post Quack, because they had already received a pitch by GG on basically what became HW earlier this year. Signing HM wasn't the last ditch, necessitated by circumstance thing that it's seemingly being made out to be, but rather the avenue they already had at their disposal before split talks had even seriously happened. 

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@Vemek I believe pertinent intel is that which should be shared.  It didn't concern you because, you know, you were imminently splitting from us, and the intel was pertinent to the future members of HW at a future date beyond the timeline of our split.  Of course I don't make these decisions, but this seems a fairly sensible position to me. 

I don't really mind the lies, or at best the misrepresentation of the truth....we'd have nothing else to talk about otherwise.  And lastly, if all you can read from my posts is 'we're right and you're wrong', I shall exercise some compassion for your overburdened mind and ping you no more :)

Celer Et Audax

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1 hour ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

The split was something that was mutually elaborated on and understood as needing to happen, as both parties felt that Quack had more or less run it's course. So this idea that it was somehow unilaterally t$ doing it, let alone t$ leaving TKR in a lurch, is nonsense.

It's also nonsense that TKR had to suddenly figure out what it was to do post Quack, because they had already received a pitch by GG on basically what became HW earlier this year. Signing HM wasn't the last ditch, necessitated by circumstance thing that it's seemingly being made out to be, but rather the avenue they already had at their disposal before split talks had even seriously happened. 

Personally not pinning blame on t$, by the time @Emperor Adam and I formally talked about dissolving Quack, I think both sides were expecting it. That said, expecting us to be entirely forthcoming on our post-Quack plans while allied is a little bit rich, even if you may have seen it coming. I think the hangup is the argument that we withheld information for the last month of Quack, etc. while we were still fully engaged in planning and playing within Quack (we even proposed a war against, then with, our now allies).

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7 hours ago, Leftbehind said:

Can you please do the whole world a favor and list all the do's and don'ts that you keep referring too? This way anyone thats wasn't playing 6 years ago can keep up. 

Yea, I’ve been wondering the same.   After 2 1/2 years of analysis, I believe this means that certain forum spinners can DO anything and justify it with the same tired copy paste crap they spam here war after war.  I believe the DON’Ts refer to all of the things the rest of Orbis is prohibited from doing to respond.   But what do I know?  I’m just a game noob these days.  

Perhaps there’s an answer in the meta?  

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1 hour ago, Kaz said:

Yea, I’ve been wondering the same.   After 2 1/2 years of analysis, I believe this means that certain forum spinners can DO anything and justify it with the same tired copy paste crap they spam here war after war.  I believe the DON’Ts refer to all of the things the rest of Orbis is prohibited from doing to respond.   But what do I know?  I’m just a game noob these days.  

Perhaps there’s an answer in the meta?  

Ah yes, the great wise meta. Praise be the meta! 

The only reason I'm even mentioning this is that we are treating it as if it's unchanging. The reality is there is a huge part of Alliance Leadership that wasn't involved in KF or even NPOLT, so trying to pretend that there is some standard we need to follow is absolutely ridiculous. Especially when it's tied to a history lesson that no one cares about. 

If you want to argue the CB or Rose actions, than argue it but quit going back to the grandpa Simpson rants about yesteryear. 

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