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There Is No IC/OOC Split, Change My Mind


BrythonLexi
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Alright, I've been thinking.  I've been thinking about the huge value that Orbis as a whole places on the split between In Character and Out of Character - especially after NPOLT.  And what I've figured out is that this is an artificial dichotomy.  There is no truely In Character experience that wholly separates itself from the person's Out Of Character political beliefs.

Would you really expect a non-leftist to join United Socialist Nations or Advanced Syndicalist Mechanics?  Would you expect a non-Muslim to join United Ummah?  Or would you expect someone who doesn't like capitalism even a little to join The Syndicate / The Enterprise, or The Company?

Let's even look outside alliances.  When you created your nation, what did you go for?  Me?  I went for an anarchist commune because I am an anarcho-communist.  While I am sure there are unicorns (there always are) who are, say, American Republicans who made a nation LARPing as a Neoliberal nation, that is almost certainly not the case for the vast majority of people playing Politics & War.  It's a game where people tend to make themselves as a nation - and that includes their OOC politics.

"But when we mean OOC we mean how GOONS made people eat dog food!" Nope.  No you don't, let's be real here.  It's completely okay to discuss someone's political beliefs when you completely agree with them - but as soon as it's a disagreement, the cry about OOC is cried and all debate is closed down.  Y'know the people who complain about new leftist alliances because "communism sucks"?  It's certainly not because they hate communism in real life or something. [Although I will concede about the generic names, hence my specificity with reasoning.]

This false distinction between OOC and IC politics has gone on too long, and makes no rational sense upon further scrutiny.  It is merely used as a weapon to shut off debates you don't like - and it is making actual political discussion a stigma outside your safe space - kinda a bad thing in a game called Politics & War.

TL;DR Your Orbis nation and alliance reflect your OOC politics.  It is folly to say otherwise - this split between OOC and IC politics is completely artificial and useless.

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6 minutes ago, BrythonLexi said:

TL;DR Your Orbis nation and alliance reflect your OOC politics.  It is folly to say otherwise - this split between OOC and IC politics is completely artificial and useless.

What OOC beliefs does my nation portray, Mr.CategorizesPeopleBasedOnTheirNation-sama
https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=262298

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Most of the time people shut off arguments isn't because of OOC talking about politics??? There was even a specified channel done in RON about politics and if it were OOC they wouldn't allow it. OOC most of the time is shut off when it starts getting personal and personal insults start being thrown around, not when political views are being thrown around, It's when the political views reach a personal level. Politics is talked everywhere in a bunch of servers in the game. It seems you can't differentiate normal politics talks from when it starts getting personal and reaches the OOC level and that seems like a you problem.

also as an edit OOC straight up meaning isnt what we rly use to describe our type of OOC

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1 hour ago, BrythonLexi said:

Alright, I've been thinking.  I've been thinking about the huge value that Orbis as a whole places on the split between In Character and Out of Character - especially after NPOLT.  And what I've figured out is that this is an artificial dichotomy.  There is no truely In Character experience that wholly separates itself from the person's Out Of Character political beliefs.

Would you really expect a non-leftist to join United Socialist Nations or Advanced Syndicalist Mechanics?  Would you expect a non-Muslim to join United Ummah?  Or would you expect someone who doesn't like capitalism even a little to join The Syndicate / The Enterprise, or The Company?

Let's even look outside alliances.  When you created your nation, what did you go for?  Me?  I went for an anarchist commune because I am an anarcho-communist.  While I am sure there are unicorns (there always are) who are, say, American Republicans who made a nation LARPing as a Neoliberal nation, that is almost certainly not the case for the vast majority of people playing Politics & War.  It's a game where people tend to make themselves as a nation - and that includes their OOC politics.

"But when we mean OOC we mean how GOONS made people eat dog food!" Nope.  No you don't, let's be real here.  It's completely okay to discuss someone's political beliefs when you completely agree with them - but as soon as it's a disagreement, the cry about OOC is cried and all debate is closed down.  Y'know the people who complain about new leftist alliances because "communism sucks"?  It's certainly not because they hate communism in real life or something. [Although I will concede about the generic names, hence my specificity with reasoning.]

This false distinction between OOC and IC politics has gone on too long, and makes no rational sense upon further scrutiny.  It is merely used as a weapon to shut off debates you don't like - and it is making actual political discussion a stigma outside your safe space - kinda a bad thing in a game called Politics & War.

TL;DR Your Orbis nation and alliance reflect your OOC politics.  It is folly to say otherwise - this split between OOC and IC politics is completely artificial and useless.

My nation is a fiery hellscape, but that doesn't mean I advocate for living in fiery hellscapes.

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1 hour ago, BrythonLexi said:

TL;DR Your Orbis nation and alliance reflect your OOC politics.  It is folly to say otherwise - this split between OOC and IC politics is completely artificial and useless.

My nation theme is Roman/Pirate. I'm neither a pirate nor a 1700 year old Italian man.

For a game advertised as roleplaying people can be what they want to be (within appropriate limits) without having it remotely reflect them as a person. Now by your own reasoning let's take a look at your nation.

 

392383f48d8cf40a3f9c7a9dc7e43f84.thumb.png.54fb7f8b5b6a6d5999159848382b7c97.png

 

This image you have displayed is from the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) The KPD quote "KPD viewed the !@#$ Party ambiguously. On one hand, the KPD considered the !@#$ Party to be one of the fascist parties. On the other hand, the KPD sought to appeal to the Strasserite-wing of the !@#$ movement by using nationalist slogans. The KPD sometimes cooperated with the Nazis..."

By your logic this single symbol has placed you into the same political party as one that supported and cooperated with Nazis. Only when the Nazis took power did your party begin to dislike them (I guess that's what you get for working and supporting Nazis).

Am I to assume that because your party supported Nazis and Domestic Terrorism in Germany (See KPD's extensive list of burning buildings, attacking police and mob attacks) that you do as well?

Goodness I've never had a report literally claim itself straight on the forum. @Alex please hammer.

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A game dies without a community.
Don't hate on the communities trying to grow.
Eat them instead.

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I agree they're closer than most people think but there is a difference.

For example I'm probably the most anti-interventionist member of a 150 member alliance, I also decided if I ever became a raider I would be oil grabbing America themed and message everyone I defeated a "mission accomplished" Bush picture 😄

What theme your nation or alliance is doesn't say much about you irl necessarily, what matters is how you actually treat people.

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1 hour ago, Latsu said:

I agree they're closer than most people think but there is a difference.

For example I'm probably the most anti-interventionist member of a 150 member alliance, I also decided if I ever became a raider I would be oil grabbing America themed and message everyone I defeated a "mission accomplished" Bush picture 😄

What theme your nation or alliance is doesn't say much about you irl necessarily, what matters is how you actually treat people.

Eh, I disagree, my ic and ooc views are different though can be related atimes, for example, I think Democracy in PnW is a stupid system of governance, but that isnt my OOC view.

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TCM3_1_281x175.png.d5f909d45f36d3dcb3722580e7b7ecc2.png
Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines
Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order

 

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3 hours ago, Young Guilo said:

My nation theme is Roman/Pirate. I'm neither a pirate nor a 1700 year old Italian man.

For a game advertised as roleplaying people can be what they want to be (within appropriate limits) without having it remotely reflect them as a person. Now by your own reasoning let's take a look at your nation.

 

392383f48d8cf40a3f9c7a9dc7e43f84.thumb.png.54fb7f8b5b6a6d5999159848382b7c97.png

 

This image you have displayed is from the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) The KPD quote "KPD viewed the !@#$ Party ambiguously. On one hand, the KPD considered the !@#$ Party to be one of the fascist parties. On the other hand, the KPD sought to appeal to the Strasserite-wing of the !@#$ movement by using nationalist slogans. The KPD sometimes cooperated with the Nazis..."

By your logic this single symbol has placed you into the same political party as one that supported and cooperated with Nazis. Only when the Nazis took power did your party begin to dislike them (I guess that's what you get for working and supporting Nazis).

Am I to assume that because your party supported Nazis and Domestic Terrorism in Germany (See KPD's extensive list of burning buildings, attacking police and mob attacks) that you do as well?

Goodness I've never had a report literally claim itself straight on the forum. @Alex please hammer.

The image displayed is from Antifaschistische Aktion, not the KPD. The fact that some people from the KPD started that organization does not make it the same organization as the KPD, obviously. There's nothing here that implies that anyone is a member of the KPD and suggesting that a symbol signifying opposition to fascism and the like is somehow indicative of supporting fascism or NSDAP is beyond ridiculous, just plain irrational nonsense probably rooted in you twisting things to suit your own erroneous beliefs.

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orwell_s_1984_oceania_s_currency_by_dungsc127_d97k1zt-fullview.jpg.9994c8f495b96849443aa0defa8730be.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, Suyash Adhikari said:

Eh, I disagree, my ic and ooc views are different though can be related atimes, for example, I think Democracy in PnW is a stupid system of governance, but that isnt my OOC view.

Direct democracy is bad irl though too 😉

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There isn't a split because there's not even really IC politics to begin with what the !@#$ is there to split? 

It's also common sense because everything is political. Regardless of your ideal worlds standpoint on that that is the current world.

 

You may think it isn't possible to characterize that, to you I say, have you ever actually tried? I have, it's alarmingly easy, actually. Not only can you map the literal IC way and policies alliances function surprisingly accurately to actual OOC political beliefs, you will find, in SHOCKING COINCIDENCE, to everyone with their heads up their asses, you can also find that the people executing and developing the policies map to the same local area as the alliance itself does! 

Try it! Based on your alliances themes, internal operations, government structure and culture, map it to one. Fun research on political beliefs different from yours too, you guys always love debate right, bam. Once you've done that ask yourself, how closely do you personally match up to that?

For some of you the answer might be "not very" but for the overwhelming majority of players the answer is "most of it actually yeah" and that's not some magic coincidence. That's the truth across every alliance in game. All of them. 

To Adrienne, your argument falls flat at numerous basic points.

Point 1: the innate imperfection and impulsion of humans. This makes it even theorhetically, impossible. 

Point 2: once again, everything in today's world is political, separation is impossible.

Point 3: even without the other 2, you clearly don't understand what it even means to say "my political beliefs" it's not just views on economics. It's a road map to how you view the world, the people in it, what has happened, what's happening, what will or may happen, this roadmap if somebody studied it could give them a remarkable ability to predict what you'll do and think. 

If you seriously think that something as omnipresent in your existence as your literal view and belief of the world itself does not influence every single action you take everywhere, you either picked up the wrong prescription or have a vastly inflated view of yourself as being better than others. Because for that to be true, you would literally have to be superhuman or not human at all, what I just described is an inexorable root of human psychology. So unless you're secretly a lizard alien related to queen Elizabeth, queen of lizard aliens, I'm afraid that's not true.

 

And as stated, I absolutely can use your real life political beliefs to predict your in-game actions and do so on a regular basis. Infact since I've stopped doing the people who do talk to me have noticed that I've gone from saying "hmmm, interesting" alot to "pfft called it not surprised" a whole lot more.

It turns out when you start paying attention to people's roadmaps and actually studying more about how they think and view the world and life itself, they stop surprising you. I mastered this skill on myself for a long time and never used it on anyone else. I used it on me to predict what I thought the schizo would break next, how the rest of me would respond, and then use this to outmaneuver literal medical psychosis. I did this so often and so effectively that while I'm never going to be truly stable or cured, its also not gonna kill me. The combination of functionality dearths caused by it and other conditions will do it slowly anyway, but there's no chance of a lightning victory, ever. And there can't be, I know this battlefield so well that I can predict every move with near 100% accuracy.

 

With you it's merely 70% on a bad day. Everyone, really. I put off looking at this thread at first because I knew from the title there'd be at least one fascist here. Sure enough, the very response is it! See the thing with my point that politics is everything, is that both the far right and far left understand this, but the former obfuscates it to cover their tracks and blend in with the center, while the latter pushes it in the spotlight. Don't think so? Checklist time!

KT member? Check. KT when plotted to IRL politics resemble strongly the Third Position, the "moderate" fascism.

Under investigation by Alex for saying basically every slur imaginable in every context imaginable everywhere they could and not be smacked? Check!

On the record defending publicly known fascists and a self admitted "national socialist"? I don't think RON ever published these ones for whatever reason, but oh yes, that's a check!

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/620138260190068744/873047285074915438/SPOILER_SPOILER_unknown.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/813218534527205416/818674290562957322/unknown.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/813218534527205416/818675215315763240/unknown.png

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/813218534527205416/818675455280021534/unknown.png

 

Interesting how that worked out huh? God could you imagine reading the title of something and actually correctly, on a regular basis getting it right? You obviously can't, but I can, and it's not even like you couldn't do it if you wanted. Accepting that the world is different than you always thought is hard though, trust me I know, it's been a long year.

Now kindly sit down and ask yourself, if the fascists agree with every non action or half response or compromise you do, is that a good thing? I mean compromise is supposed to leave everyone kinda unhappy right? Why are they always pleased with it? I wonder. Not actually of course, once again I already know why. 

 

Oh for fun, let's get some mental exercises going! I'll plot some alliances out for you and let's see who can figure out why they're where they're at and if anyone can actually prove a single one wrong, and I severely doubt any of you can. 

KT - Third Position

Rose - Social Democratic, long in the past had a Democratic Socialist phase.

TKR - straight center libright liberalism. Slightly left of next in the list...

T$ - Neoliberalism

HS - about where the US charts, dead centerish of auth right. Hey, tell me, anyone see any weird familiar faces in HS member list vs those screens above? Bonus points!

ASM - Syndicalist (duh) max far left, and a decent boop into lib.

BG/WTF - Two sides of the same Anarchist coin. WTF is slower, like if Catalonia won the war and had peace, the other is fast and decisive, like the Zapatista and Makhnos of their wars. Bottom left corner.

 

"Oh but Sakura people are roleplaying so they're intentionally putting effort in to subvert their beliefs" would be a relevant take if anybody here actually fricking roleplayed. Drop the bullshit, RL socialists are in socialist alliances, RL capitalists are in capitalist alliances, RL fascists and reactionaries in fascist and reactionary alliances, and RL centrists in milquetoast centrist alliances. Once again, a coincidence on that scale, IS NOT A COINCIDENCE. I'm not doing it either of course, but as I spend our time contemplating how to beat superior, vastly superior forces head to head, to achieve an actual objective aside from a "lul beat down" you might not have noticed.

Turns out more radical outlooks are more interesting in a game where politics and war and making moves is important as opposed to milquetoast, change and do little as possible outlooks. My outlook is fun, changed by my conditions as it's been, it's different vastly even from others in my little compass square, and it allows me to act easily as almost anything, hero or villain, active or passive, farmer or destroyer. 

But you guys? Y'all just got one setting. Stop "roleplaying" as the you in your little dreams about "what if I was president" and actually make a goddamn character. Some people are weird and crazy enough to be one naturally, noctis in particular comes to mind, for all the talk of me even i can't match that.

 

Put effort in, think differently, do differently, drop the whole "list of taboos" crap. You're all trying to play the hero in your imaginations, that could never exist, and as we can see, can't even in fiction. Do something different, be a hero to some, and a villain to most.

Afterall if it's roleplaying on a fictional stage to make an epoch, then playing some other than yourself, even a villain, should be a most grand experience, no? 

 

Good God look what seasonal layoff has done to me, this is the second time in 24 hours, and all on mobile too. Jeez.

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5 minutes ago, kosmokenny said:

This is an example of lying to cover up a long history you are entirely aware of

Just grab the evidence lol, lots of newer people since those days.

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27 minutes ago, Aiya said:

In the same vein though, people who target other players either directly or indirectly and make the game unenjoyable should be liable to face IC consequences from others for such, without chastisement.

I get what you mean, I think, but this statement as is is a slippery slope. If the harassment is over game stuff, 100%, that's what wars and CBs are for. Otherwise, it devolves back to your first point. OOC harassment is not okay but handling it via in-game means just spreads the misery and toxicity. It should be handled by moderation but I know that has not always been the case. I'm hoping that improves under the new community moderation guidelines and with the increased help Alex is employing but only time will tell.

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1 hour ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

Oh for fun, let's get some mental exercises going! I'll plot some alliances out for you and let's see who can figure out why they're where they're at and if anyone can actually prove a single one wrong, and I severely doubt any of you can. 

T$ - Neoliberalism

 

 

Disclaimers:

This is a shitpost. This is not an endorsement of Sans, but it is an endorsement of Zed. This is a proper example of a t$ post format for official notices, for certain people like W and darkblade who need a lesson in how to Git Gud.

 

 

The key line here is the Company Profile, which states the following.

SYNDICATE, Inc., based near Nassau, The Bahamas, is the world's leading gasoline, aluminum and munitions distributor for a wide variety of peacekeeping and humanitarian activities. Wholly-owned SYNDICATE, Inc. subsidiary brands include the Coalition, a patent and intellectual property office most famous for protecting their abbreviation tC, and Charming Friends, which provides “labor relations services” for companies and people across the world. For more information about SYNDICATE, Inc., and its activities, contact Hilmes, Director of Strategic Planning.

 

Now I could not be bothered that much to find the post where Charming Friends became a part of t$, but I can show you this.

 

 

Charming Friends working with t$? How is such a union possible? Now sure, this is just another example of a movement becoming a business which becomes a grift/racket (run by like, I dunno, a Syndicate?), but t$ has some very friendly and ethical policies towards labor and workers, and is not at all cold heartless evil neoliberal beings*.

 

[spoiler]Except Pablo, who likes Hillary Clinton for some reason.[/spoiler]

 

EDIT: I must apologize. I have been too unkind to some of our government, because we do unironically have some Reagan/Thatcher supporters in government too. The record must be corrected to show this, and not be totally unfair to my dear amigo Pablito.

Edited by Zed
Omission Of Truth
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In paradisum deducant te Angeli; in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres, et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Ierusalem.
Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cüm Lazaro quondam paupere æternam habeas requiem.

 

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Hi. Call me a dirty centrist or whatever but pretty sure I embody the total antithesis of what this post claims.

8 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

Would you really expect a non-leftist to join United Socialist Nations or Advanced Syndicalist Mechanics?  Would you expect a non-Muslim to join United Ummah?  Or would you expect someone who doesn't like capitalism even a little to join The Syndicate / The Enterprise, or The Company?

Actually... yeah, I've done both of those things before. Once upon a time I joined an alliance called Stratagem, led by Queen M, which was about as leftist of an alliance as you could get. Just a week ago I was in KT. In both cases, I joined because I wanted a change of pace and a fun place to hang out IC, not OOC. I am neither a leftist nor a rightist.

8 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

Let's even look outside alliances.  When you created your nation, what did you go for?  Me?  I went for an anarchist commune because I am an anarcho-communist.  While I am sure there are unicorns (there always are) who are, say, American Republicans who made a nation LARPing as a Neoliberal nation, that is almost certainly not the case for the vast majority of people playing Politics & War.  It's a game where people tend to make themselves as a nation - and that includes their OOC politics.

My OOC nation theme is a banana republic based in Nigeria surrounding Nigerian Prince scams; unless my OOC politics all revolve around memeology I don't think this is quite right :P

I will give my tl;dr: yes, plenty of people do tie their IC and OOC together intimately, but it would be a mistake to generalize this to all people. I play this game so that I don't have to run circles debating OOC politics. I also talk to a lot of people who hate each other for OOC reasons because all I really care about is finding people who know how to fight and know how to have fun. And that's what it should be; people treating it like just a game because at the end of the day that's how you get to have fun and do things that you would be hesitant or afraid to do otherwise.

Edited by hidude45454
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