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8/18/2021 - Proposal for New Game & Community Rules


Alex
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To be frank, some of these rules seem a bit silly when a technical implementation may handle the problem; the system is akin to having moderators warn and ban for usernames having special characters instead of handling it with in-game mechanics. 

 

4. War slot filled but the rate of attacks are low, or non-existent between the 2 players? -> War ended early after several turns not taken, -10% resources for both nations involved. 

5. Spying slots getting filled by operations that don't do damage by allies? Implement a 2-tier system for spy operations, one in which information gathering is done (limitless spy attempts), one in which damage is done (limit of 2). If an allied nation wants to do a harmful spy operation to their ally, oh well? 🤷‍♂️

6. Make bounties have more conditional logic, such that the bounty-requesting nation can demand... 20% infrastructure damage done or something like that. 

 

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Guest Zephyr

I have not read the rules in their entirety, only skimmed, but I'm wondering if you really need the Screenshot Abuse rule at all. If you modify Custom Content on Nation and Alliance Pages a little (suggested changes in bold), I feel like it would adequately cover screenshots and help reduce the total length of your rules:

Quote

Custom Nation/Alliance Content

There are limits on what custom content is allowed to be posted in-game, including but not limited to on nation and alliance pages.

Custom content shall not include imagery with excessive flashing or changing colors which could be deemed as potentially seizure-inducing for epileptic users, or otherwise cause visual strain for users.

Custom content shall not be excessively long so as to disrupt the normal flow of pages. Excessively tall images and "filler" text are not allowed.

Content posted with the intent to deceive other players about mechanical game ability is strictly prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, plain text statements such as "This nation is in Vacation Mode for X turns." or using fake nation/alliance profile screenshots.

I've suggested something like "mechanical game ability" as this would indicate that things such as fake achievements are fine as they do not affect a nation's mechanical ability; despite being a deception, they are inconsequential to mechanical gameplay. Also fake screenshots of a nation profile are still covered as they do deceive on "mechanical game ability" if any of the nation's stats are different in the screenshot to the nation's actual stats (more or less military units is a real mechanical difference militarily, higher or lower economic stats is a real mechanical difference economically via trade power or buying power etc., and likewise can be applied to alliance profiles).

Also suggesting a less verbose rule title.

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8 hours ago, Cynder said:

Pretty good, I like it so far, I don't think we need a static comprehensive set of guidelines for every circumstance out there, but I think it's a lot better than the way things were for years.

There's a couple of things I like to address, personally I think punishment for predatory behavior should never expire, I don't think that needs much explaining.

The second thing is that we kinda need light shed on transphobia and homophobia, I think the severity of the punishment of such acts should be on par with sexism and racism but that's just me. There's a few transgendered and gay folk here who would probably appreciate knowing they're protected, it may even welcome new players. I know we all have differing opinions on the matter and I respect that, but they're people too and there are indeed serious issues surrounding that sort of thing.

To be honest, even as a gay player, I've always been against adding new protections for particular groups beyond the existing rules on trolling and flaming. I find it highly patronising to suggest that, on account of any perceived vulnerabilities we have, we require some extra level of protection. At the end of the day, a player who is an arse is a player who is an arse; it doesn't matter if that player is a homophobic arse or just an arse who likes to rile people up for now apparent reason or insults people because they have simply taken a dislike to them. I know this isn't the most popular viewpoint around but I really don't think we should add particular categories of abuse that we prioritise over other ones.

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7 hours ago, brendan said:

i think there should also be a ban on communism it is just as hateful of a ideology as Nazim and it only seems right since we are banning hateful symbols 

No.  A specific ban on Stalinism and/or Maoism, sure.  But banning the whole spectrum of leftists that y'all unwelcomingly lump under as "Marxism" or "communism" is like if Alex banned UKIP members over the N azism rule.

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3 hours ago, namukara said:

To be honest, even as a gay player, I've always been against adding new protections for particular groups beyond the existing rules on trolling and flaming. I find it highly patronising to suggest that, on account of any perceived vulnerabilities we have, we require some extra level of protection. At the end of the day, a player who is an arse is a player who is an arse; it doesn't matter if that player is a homophobic arse or just an arse who likes to rile people up for now apparent reason or insults people because they have simply taken a dislike to them. I know this isn't the most popular viewpoint around but I really don't think we should add particular categories of abuse that we prioritise over other ones.

I definitely get not wanting to feel singled out but I don't think those type of rules exist because you're vulnerable and need protection like you're some damsel in distress so much as making it abundantly clear that spreading hate and targeting someone based on an attribute of themselves they can't change isn't acceptable. In that regard, I see it as a bit different than being an arse simply because you like to troll people or because you've taken a dislike to someone based on their actions. I get what you mean though, I just don't see the harm in clarity since people like to push boundaries. 

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17 hours ago, Kuuhaku said:

Just a suggestion but in light of recent event that just happened last day change, wouldn't it be appropriate to put a rule against knowingly abusing a bug? It might be fuzzy to draw the line where someone does it knowingly or not, but one of the easiest ways of having it known might be having a "known glitches/bugs report" in changelogs or as a monthly thing.

 

Idk just something I thought in the past 3 minutes but the MAP issue has been a bother for the last 3 global wars or even longer 

Whoops, I thought I had included this in the doc but actually had put it in a different doc. I agree with you, and here is the missing rule 17 that does cover this:

Quote

Exploit Abuse
Moderation Point Guideline: 50-100
Expiration: 2 Years

Should a bug, glitch, or other exploit in the game exist, players have an obligation not to abuse them and an obligation to report these to Alex or other game staff so that they can be fixed. Players also have an obligation to report the known use by other players of any exploits.

Alex is known to cause bugs in the game somewhat frequently, and Alex reserves the right to not punish players for any exploits that he deems are his fault / caused by him and easily resolved. The spirit of this rule is intended to prevent the very serious, gamebreaking abuse of any major bugs or exploits..

 

17 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

I do have concerns about the lax amount of moderation points given to sexist/racist comments - where even the worst case is worth half of what a ban would be.

Secondarily, I am worried about N azi-like beliefs that would be excused just for not being NSDAP-themed - like, while you do have a ban on the Confederacy in place (which is largely an American thing), it's easy for crypto-fascist themes and icons like "Kekistan" to easily pass through, because there is no Kekistan hate group.

I did leave the rules fairly open ended to include "other hate groups."

I'm not an expert on "Kekistan" but AFAIK there is no "Kekistan hate group" like you say and I don't see a reason why that would be prohibited. But if you could make a compelling argument, these rules are always going to be interpreted as well as updated in the future as things change.

17 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

That makes sense, but given the whole thing with banning the Confederacy, you're effectively banning everyone who uses the Dixie flag (which is a large porportion of the American South, and a fair amount of even Northern conservatives).

That, and I apologise if i'm a bit too cautious - given the extreme transphobia in parts of the P&W community.  Seeing no rules on homophobia or transphobia is also alarming.

Either way, there is a huge white supremacy problem on this website, that @Zei-Sakura Alsainn showed and got attacked for.

My intention is not to allow homophobia/transphobia either, and perhaps I should explicitly write that into the rules. This is exactly the kind of feedback that I was looking for, to help address anything that perhaps I overlooked in explicitly codifying. Thank you.

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17 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

That makes sense, but given the whole thing with banning the Confederacy, you're effectively banning everyone who uses the Dixie flag (which is a large porportion of the American South, and a fair amount of even Northern conservatives).

I believe that the Confederate flag is essentially very symbolic of racism & slavery in the United States, and it certainly makes people very uncomfortable. I don't see any reason it needs to be used in the game, and I believe with it typically comes roleplay themes of racism and slavery.

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17 hours ago, namukara said:

It is highly disingenuous to suggest that you have been taking into account things that happened out of official game channels when dishing out punishments ingame for a number of years. Even the examples you gave, the GPWC cheating scandal and the trading of ingame resources for things with rl value are false comparisons as they directly affect the game. Somebody saying a nasty thing on a discord server which happens to be populated largely by players of this game does not have the same impact.

Unless you have witnessed the interactions that prompt moderator action yourself, I fail to understand how the reason that you gave to me in an email dated 13 March 2019 does not apply. Although you have this email in your sent folder, I will quote it for the benefit of users who do not

Unfortunately, there's probably not anything I can do to help you, assuming that these Discord messages occurred outside of the official Politics & War Discord server. We don't moderate what happens outside of our official channels (the game itself, the official Discord server, and the game forum) because we have no way to identify individuals outside of these media. Anyone could pretend to be someone else and send messages in order to get the person they're pretending to be in trouble or banned, which is why we don't moderate outside of official channels to discourage that behavior.
 
 

 

This email was sent in response to a report I submitted that same day regarding toxic OOC behavior from a leading member of a now-dissolved alliance not limited to the longstanding bullying of certain users including myself. Although, I should hope understandably, I was quite annoyed by your response to my report at the time moderating several servers since that point has taught me that this was the most sensible course of action for you to take.

Screenshots and copy-pastes can be edited very easily. Discord accounts can be hacked and permissions can be given wrongly by lax server moderators, and thus the quality of the evidence provided from messages which pertain to come from this communication method is highly suspect. Incidentally, I am Borg, I've lost access to my account and I can send you discord screenshots to prove it, please send me my alliances offshore immediately. I'm also Valk if the street doesn't have quite enough in the bank, just let me get my friend to boot up his image editor again.

I suspect that the reason I'm not on my way to city 40 right now is because you are not stupid and as much as I can create discord accounts claiming to be any number of alliance leaders and can get them okayed by various friends it does not prove that I am them. Likewise if I wished to create a discord account, give it the name of a high-profile member of the community, go join a major alliance and start spamming porn images around you should disregard it as it's obviously a troll, right?

This is a game which creates discord coders and image editors. It's a game that breeds the sort of skillset that would enable a user to create the illusion of genuine comments while they were nothing of the sort. If you are seriously set on the path of allowing discord screenshots, even in servers you're not in to be taken as hard and fast evidence of rulebreaking then please accept that you are also happy to open the door to report abuse on a massive scale; because, when OOC toxicity reaches the levels we have seen in this game in recent years I know that is what will happen.

Thanks for listening to my ted talk; I hope something productive will come from it and that you'll reconsider this dangerous rules change.

To address your first point and the email that you sent me, I don't recall the exact substance of it. And I will also admit that I was more hesitant to accept anything happening outside of the purview of the official game channels previously, even in situations like doxxing, personal threats, etc. I've come around to the view, though, that we are better off by rooting out certain extremely toxic individuals in the community in very rare and extraordinary circumstances.

To your second point, I think that there is a misunderstanding. I tried to be very clear in the OP that I am extremely skeptical of evidence presented outside of official game channels, and I will not, as a matter of principle, accept Discord screenshots alone. I always try to personally validate the content of Discord messages through various means such as joining other Discord servers myself or temporarily accessing a player's Discord account to validate messages. Each Discord account also has a unique user ID that cannot be changed and so there's really no issue of someone creating a fake Discord account with someone else's name in an attempt to get them banned, etc.

16 hours ago, im317 said:

please add/include not being able to trade in game stuff for stuff from other games. i know it should obviously be covered by what is already in place but making it clear would help. in the past there have been instances of people doing something that was clearly against the spirit and general wording of the rules but as it was not explicitly against the rules those people were able to get away with little to no consequences.

What examples are these? I would argue that the existing rule on in-game for out-of-game transfers would cover this and I would take action against it if it was reported.

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14 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

Yeah, it honestly alarms me a bit that there is no homophobia/transphobia rule in the draft.  On quite a few P&W servers there is rampant bigotry against gay and trans people - like with people being deadnamed or the use of "traps" as a slur

I definitely agree that this should be written into the rules, but to be clear, this is not something that I would expect to be moderating outside of official P&W channels. I want to again reiterate that I only intend to take into account what's going on outside of official game channels in very rare, extreme cases. I would not generally expect name calling, racism, sexism, homophobia, or transphobia to be included in this.

That does not mean that I am condoning that behavior at all, however, I think that it would be practically impossible to moderate against all of everyone's language everywhere. I would certainly encourage the moderators of those other Discord servers and platforms to take their own moderation action against such individuals.

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12 hours ago, Zerkium said:

To be frank, some of these rules seem a bit silly when a technical implementation may handle the problem; the system is akin to having moderators warn and ban for usernames having special characters instead of handling it with in-game mechanics. 

 

4. War slot filled but the rate of attacks are low, or non-existent between the 2 players? -> War ended early after several turns not taken, -10% resources for both nations involved. 

5. Spying slots getting filled by operations that don't do damage by allies? Implement a 2-tier system for spy operations, one in which information gathering is done (limitless spy attempts), one in which damage is done (limit of 2). If an allied nation wants to do a harmful spy operation to their ally, oh well? 🤷‍♂️

6. Make bounties have more conditional logic, such that the bounty-requesting nation can demand... 20% infrastructure damage done or something like that. 

 

4. Doesn't really account for certain strategies like sitting on a nation with a blockade or saving up MAPs for a nuke.

5. Already exists and has been implemented for years. To be fair, spy slot filling is generally not an issue I deal with often.

6. That's probably not a bad idea.

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5 hours ago, namukara said:

To be honest, even as a gay player, I've always been against adding new protections for particular groups beyond the existing rules on trolling and flaming. I find it highly patronising to suggest that, on account of any perceived vulnerabilities we have, we require some extra level of protection. At the end of the day, a player who is an arse is a player who is an arse; it doesn't matter if that player is a homophobic arse or just an arse who likes to rile people up for now apparent reason or insults people because they have simply taken a dislike to them. I know this isn't the most popular viewpoint around but I really don't think we should add particular categories of abuse that we prioritise over other ones.

I generally agree that the flaming/trolling/baiting/name calling rules do cover all of these topics like sexism, racism, homophobia, and transphobia.

However, I do also think that explicitly codifying these things in the rules doesn't hurt anything and does at least clearly communicate to the community that we care and are serious about enforcing against these types of offenses, which are all too common.

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18 hours ago, BelgiumFury said:

How long would these bans last for?
Would they be permanent (i personally believe that is a bit harsh, a lot of young people play this game, change happens a lot) or would it depend on the expiration of the points you have?

Personally I would prefer the second option (or another non permanent solution).

Assuming bans are not permanent, is there a way to "ban" people without deleting their nation so they can come back once they had time to think about their actions and it's consequences?

 

Hey @Alex I think you missed this one, could you provide some clarity on this please?
Thanks :)

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37 minutes ago, BelgiumFury said:

Hey @Alex I think you missed this one, could you provide some clarity on this please?
Thanks :)

This is something that I need to think about and get back to you on. Theoretically, it could be handled any of these ways.

In general, I am against permanent bans in large part because ISPs change IPs over time, and a permanent IP ban usually just ends up in some new confused player not being able to play because their IP address is banned through no fault of their own.

In terms of preserving nations to allow people to come back when their bans expire - I think it would definitely depend on the offense. If someone cheated by creating multis and sending lots of aid to themselves, for example, it wouldn't really be fair to hand them back their ill-gotten gains after their ban expires.

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5 hours ago, Adrienne said:

I definitely get not wanting to feel singled out but I don't think those type of rules exist because you're vulnerable and need protection like you're some damsel in distress so much as making it abundantly clear that spreading hate and targeting someone based on an attribute of themselves they can't change isn't acceptable. In that regard, I see it as a bit different than being an arse simply because you like to troll people or because you've taken a dislike to someone based on their actions. I get what you mean though, I just don't see the harm in clarity since people like to push boundaries. 

Yep I agree, especially with that last bit. There are some people who will skirt the rules or tap-dance on that thin line between what is allowed and what isn't, hence why I suggested punishment for predatory behavior to be more harsh. So yeah, I don't think there's harm in a little bit of clarity neither.

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2 hours ago, Alex said:

This is something that I need to think about and get back to you on. Theoretically, it could be handled any of these ways.

In general, I am against permanent bans in large part because ISPs change IPs over time, and a permanent IP ban usually just ends up in some new confused player not being able to play because their IP address is banned through no fault of their own.

In terms of preserving nations to allow people to come back when their bans expire - I think it would definitely depend on the offense. If someone cheated by creating multis and sending lots of aid to themselves, for example, it wouldn't really be fair to hand them back their ill-gotten gains after their ban expires.

I think all the point you listed are really interesting.
In general i think all your proposed rules are quite good, i do think it's important to doctor a bit more with the duration of bans, and the possibility of getting an account back.

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Thoughts on my suggested change...

 

10 hours ago, Alex said:

In general, I am against permanent bans in large part because ISPs change IPs over time, and a permanent IP ban usually just ends up in some new confused player not being able to play because their IP address is banned through no fault of their own.

How many times has this happened?

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15 hours ago, Zephyr said:

Thoughts on my suggested change...

 

How many times has this happened?

I'd say it happens between 3-5 times / month that someone opens a Discord ticket asking "why am I banned?"

I have no idea how many times it happens to people who just see the ban message and never return to the game without opening any sort of support ticket.

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On 8/19/2021 at 1:32 AM, brendan said:

i think there should also be a ban on communism it is just as hateful of a ideology as Nazim and it only seems right since we are banning hateful symbols 

Exactly people are completely hypocritical when it comes to this subject and makes them look stupid. Alex needs to ban communism as well. Especially considering they were even worse than the Nazis and killed many more people. It is nothing more than hypocritical of Alex at this point not banning both. 

 

 

                                                                                            
 

 

 

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On 8/19/2021 at 11:40 AM, Alex said:

To address your first point and the email that you sent me, I don't recall the exact substance of it. And I will also admit that I was more hesitant to accept anything happening outside of the purview of the official game channels previously, even in situations like doxxing, personal threats, etc. I've come around to the view, though, that we are better off by rooting out certain extremely toxic individuals in the community in very rare and extraordinary circumstances.

To your second point, I think that there is a misunderstanding. I tried to be very clear in the OP that I am extremely skeptical of evidence presented outside of official game channels, and I will not, as a matter of principle, accept Discord screenshots alone. I always try to personally validate the content of Discord messages through various means such as joining other Discord servers myself or temporarily accessing a player's Discord account to validate messages. Each Discord account also has a unique user ID that cannot be changed and so there's really no issue of someone creating a fake Discord account with someone else's name in an attempt to get them banned, etc.

What examples are these? I would argue that the existing rule on in-game for out-of-game transfers would cover this and I would take action against it if it was reported.

back when someone first uploaded a fake beige picture and you made that against the rules. someone else then uploaded a fake vacation mode picture shortly after and you just let it go because it was not yet against the rules even thought it was clear the rule about fake beige was meant to apply to any such fake image. i may have the exact example slightly out or order, its been over a year

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On 8/19/2021 at 9:09 AM, BrythonLexi said:

No.  A specific ban on Stalinism and/or Maoism, sure.  But banning the whole spectrum of leftists that y'all unwelcomingly lump under as "Marxism" or "communism" is like if Alex banned UKIP members over the N azism rule.

im talking about people like communist dictators like Cuba's, China's, Soviet Union's or Venezuela's the people that actively suppress peoples  liberty's like freedom of the press freedom of religion and freedom to self determination.

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On 8/19/2021 at 1:32 AM, brendan said:

i think there should also be a ban on communism it is just as hateful of a ideology as Nazim and it only seems right since we are banning hateful symbols 

Seconded. 

I was born in Eastern Europe and the gulags, starvation, and totalitarian control o peoples' thoughts are still a terrible scar on the victims collective consciousness.

Read up on the atrocities of Communist/Socialist governments such as Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, or Pol Pot's Cambodia - absolutely gruesome systematic murder of millions of people.

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On 8/23/2021 at 8:20 AM, brendan said:

im talking about people like communist dictators like Cuba's, China's, Soviet Union's or Venezuela's the people that actively suppress peoples  liberty's like freedom of the press freedom of religion and freedom to self determination.

To be fair, your original comment vaguely identified communism to be banned...

On 8/19/2021 at 1:32 PM, brendan said:

i think there should also be a ban on communism it is just as hateful of a ideology as Nazim and it only seems right since we are banning hateful symbols 

 

22 hours ago, Zerkium said:

Seconded. 

I was born in Eastern Europe and the gulags, starvation, and totalitarian control o peoples' thoughts are still a terrible scar on the victims collective consciousness.

Read up on the atrocities of Communist/Socialist governments such as Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, or Pol Pot's Cambodia - absolutely gruesome systematic murder of millions of people.

There are a range of communist ideologies with varying opinion on the specifics of the end goal and how to get there, and they don't all advocate violence. It is defective reasoning to assert that all communists advocate violence due to one's ability to point to specific violent regimes that identified as communist, because not all communists hold those views. As such, I think it's ridiculous to push for an outright ban on communism. It would be more reasonable to ban roleplaying specific violent regimes.

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