Change for beige mechanics

[Bozzie]

I would suggest a change to the beige mechanic. It is my belief that part of the idea of being forced onto beige after losing a war was to give the beaten nation a chance to rebuild their military somewhat. As it stands, others are still allowed to spy a nation that is on beige. 

I think that any nation on beige should be immune from all attacks, including espionage attacks. 

That is all.

[JadenStar10]

I think its a reasonable suggestion.

[This Fckn Guy]

Also, tell RNGesus I'm sorry for whatever I did

[Chad]

I agree with this and support it.

[Avicour]

While we would take advantage of it if we were on the winning side (and we totally would(so I don't begrudge that)). It's just not right. I have zero problems with others doing to us, what we would do to them. Needs to be fixed though. Beige is beige.

[Indger]

I dont support this
 

[EViL0nE]

11 hours ago, Indger said:

I dont support this
 

Care to expand on your reasoning, from a game-mechanics and logic perspective? 

 

Or is your reply specifically "currently we're benefitting from the current mechanic so don't change it while we're benefitting from it" ?

[Prefontaine]

Personally, I'm in favor of a mechanic which allows for a nation to have the ability to fully rebuild military during alliance wars if they have the resources. There are, however, different thoughts on this concept. What I can tell is that beige rework is the next focus the Dev Team is working on. I'm going to link this thread to the Dev channel and allow some of them to comment further if they wish. 

[Bird Shorten]

If a person on beige is immune to espionage attacks, will they be able to perform espionage attacks? Does performing espionage currently make you leave beige? 

[Indger]

11 hours ago, EViL0nE said:

Or is your reply specifically "currently we're benefitting from the current mechanic so don't change it while we're benefitting from it" ?

yes
 

[Prefontaine]

12 hours ago, Bird Shorten said:

If a person on beige is immune to espionage attacks, will they be able to perform espionage attacks? Does performing espionage currently make you leave beige? 

There would likely be a clause that would force you to leave beige if you wanted to perform a spy op. Though I doubt beige would prevent intel ops, you should be able to perform or get them performed on you regardless.

[Guest Zephyr]

Is the suggestion to prevent any espionage operations at all of all types against a beige nation? What if a nation still has an active war with the beiged nation, are we disadvantaged each time someone beiges our targets?

[Prefontaine]

10 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

Is the suggestion to prevent any espionage operations at all of all types against a beige nation? What if a nation still has an active war with the beiged nation, are we disadvantaged each time someone beiges our targets?

I believe there is a rule that supersedes espionage ranges with nations you're at war with. Lets say we're fighting and you beat me down so badly I'm outside of your spy range, since we have an active war you can still spy me. This would likely supersede any beige restrictions on espionage as well. 

[Guest Zephyr]

25 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

I believe there is a rule that supersedes espionage ranges with nations you're at war with. Lets say we're fighting and you beat me down so badly I'm outside of your spy range, since we have an active war you can still spy me. This would likely supersede any beige restrictions on espionage as well. 

I'm aware that at current a nation can always spy a nation they're at war with, but it's unclear to me what Bozzie's intentions were and what assumptions the rest of us are making about how this would/should be implemented.

I don't think I'd like this change if it means that even nations at war cannot spy each other as that seems unfair to those actively fighting. Then I'm thinking if warring nations can still spy each other, then there's not much difference if your opponents are beige cycling you. I guess this change could be useful if you're losing the conventional war but winning the spy game, but then maybe that actually just means this mechanic hampers your opportunity to use your best assets most effectively...unless nations on beige can still spy? Though that again doesn't seem fair, you can neither conventionally retaliate if spied by beiged nations, or spy them back. If they're sitting on a juicy beige timer too, it'd be even more frustrating to have no options to respond with. This would seem to then make beige even more valuable to the detriment of the victorious side, becoming even more reason to deny opponents beige time and exacerbate that "problem".

I guess I'm not sure if this change would matter or if it'd actually be good for the conventionally disadvantaged side, in both their immediate ability to exploit those mechanics and the influence it has on opponent willingness to beige. *shrug*

Edited May 19, 2021 by Zephyr

[EViL0nE]

1 hour ago, Zephyr said:

I'm aware that at current a nation can always spy a nation they're at war with, but it's unclear to me what Bozzie's intentions were and what assumptions the rest of us are making about how this would/should be implemented.

I don't think I'd like this change if it means that even nations at war cannot spy each other as that seems unfair to those actively fighting. Then I'm thinking if warring nations can still spy each other, then there's not much difference if your opponents are beige cycling you. I guess this change could be useful if you're losing the conventional war but winning the spy game, but then maybe that actually just means this mechanic hampers your opportunity to use your best assets most effectively...unless nations on beige can still spy? Though that again doesn't seem fair, you can neither conventionally retaliate if spied by beiged nations, or spy them back. If they're sitting on a juicy beige timer too, it'd be even more frustrating to have no options to respond with. This would seem to then make beige even more valuable to the detriment of the victorious side, becoming even more reason to deny opponents beige time and exacerbate that "problem".

I guess I'm not sure if this change would matter or if it'd actually be good for the conventionally disadvantaged side, in both their immediate ability to exploit those mechanics and the influence it has on opponent willingness to beige. *shrug*

Well, for instance, I have spent about 9 days in beige over the last few weeks with 0 active wars. In that time I have been unable to rebuild spies or nukes and have to constantly rebuy tanks as they are spied away. With 0 active wars while on beige. This is clearly at odds with the concept of beige being a place of rest and rebuild. 

I don't fault my opponents for using the tactic. It allows a win in the early round(s) of a war to steamroll into a significantly more resounding win. If your opponents can be stopped from fully rebuilding with nothing more than a few million in spy ops every day, with the added bonus of forcing them to blow steel on tank rebuying, that's a heck of a lot cheaper than actually fighting a war. With an overwhelming nation count and the current beige/spy mechanic, there's no reason to not beige the nations. They either sit in beige and gain little, or come out and continue getting piled on.

[Bozzie]

To make this clear, I think that of course if a beige nation is still at war with others, those others should be able to continue to spy. However, no nations not involved in a war with a nation that is beiged should be able to do spy attacks on them.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bozzie

[Guest Zephyr]

8 hours ago, EViL0nE said:

Well, for instance, I have spent about 9 days in beige over the last few weeks with 0 active wars. In that time I have been unable to rebuild spies or nukes and have to constantly rebuy tanks as they are spied away. With 0 active wars while on beige. This is clearly at odds with the concept of beige being a place of rest and rebuild. 

I don't fault my opponents for using the tactic. It allows a win in the early round(s) of a war to steamroll into a significantly more resounding win. If your opponents can be stopped from fully rebuilding with nothing more than a few million in spy ops every day, with the added bonus of forcing them to blow steel on tank rebuying, that's a heck of a lot cheaper than actually fighting a war. With an overwhelming nation count and the current beige/spy mechanic, there's no reason to not beige the nations. They either sit in beige and gain little, or come out and continue getting piled on.

I agree that beige was intended to be a break from conflict and that the ability to spy beiged nations seems inconsistent with that assumption, but your specific example does not illustrate the area of concern I raised. What I'm wondering is if it was changed to prevent spy operations with a beige nation except with nations actively at war with them, does this just mean opponents are even less likely to beige them? If so, is the end result of this change going to be better for the ones getting thrashed or potentially even worse? I don't know, what are your thoughts on that specific area of concern?

Edited May 20, 2021 by Zephyr