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2 minutes ago, MinesomeMC said:

Unfortunately a lot of members of the Left (typically Neo Liberals and farleft) mark anyone who they dont agree with as Alt-Right or "Fascist". You can't simply roll the alt-right when those who are placed there are usually not the alt-right.   

Nuance is hard tho

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On 3/13/2021 at 8:48 PM, Sargun said:

do y'all remember when CN got targeted because nordreich used Norway's flag in a recruitment video and Norway thought it was !@#$ propaganda?

for anyone not in the know, this was in 2007.  nordreich, a weird shitty "german nationalist" alliance that "questions historical events" under "freedom of speech" made a recruitment video on youtube and they ended up taking the video down anyway after a lot of pressure.  and it turned out a lot of members were ... the exact kind of people you'd expect to end up in an alliance of that type.

IC and OOC have never been separate in nation sims.  it's fourteen years later and there are new nordreichs and there are new people who flock to nordreichs because they appeal to them.  people like akuryo, people like nordreichs, they're always gonna be here and they're always gonna have their shitty little niches as long as we tolerate them.

so what i like to do is not tolerate them.  and i think this game and whatever successor games in the future would be better off if we didn't tolerate them.  and it's really weird to see this thread about people defending an admitted fascist because they outed other fascists.  like, purging ranks of people who believe the same way you do but for a different party is literally textbook.  so very clearly there's no redemption to be had here, it's just some more nordreich shit we've been dealing with since 2007, and it's stunning that this game full of fully grown adult people haven't just grasped that this sort of intolerance has to, paradoxically, not be tolerated.

this is a very bad look for whatever dumb alliance COTL is but it's also a bad look for anyone in this community who doesn't try to push these bad actors out.  IC and OOC have never been separate, no matter how hard we've tried to pretend they are.  we wear a facade for roleplaying but people have been taking this shit personally for a long, long time.  it's better to just own up to it and kick the shitters out than to pretend we need to tolerate their garbage.

In P&W's defense, to some extent, Nordreich did come to P&W as well during Beta in 2013/14 and were promptly banned! CN provided a great case study of what not to do there. :P (that said, agreed)

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10 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Germany has fully functional and publicly known fascist parties, you imbecile. Even there, people are legally allowed to be fascist and those parties are tolerated exactly as much as any other parties, which does indeed mean that they get into legal trouble when they overstep the lines that the Bundestag has legally introduced. (Which, it would seem they are in such trouble. Looks like fascists are dumbasses there too. Not a surprise. Furthermore, note that Germany isn't beholden to the US constitution nor American ideas of what free speech means; their laws and cultural comfort zones are their own.)

The fact that Germans are highly against fascism and fascist behaviors of any form is laudable, and entirely different to what you're trying to present as some kind of moralist "silence/punish anyone that disagrees with me, since I'd rather not put in the effort of engaging with their arguments fairly or honestly" behavior. Which is not merely enabling facism, but is fascist in and of itself.

  

I wrote a post addressing this in the general discussion thread, since that convo is most assuredly NOT "alliance affairs" by this point

Fascism is largely banned under Germany's criminal code unless it is linked to teaching, science and a couple other things I am too lazy to wiki to recall. Funnily enough though, I believe extremist Islam is also banned under the same provisions. Hats off to Germany. There are no fascist parties in Germany, much as their are no Islamic extremist parties and even some far left parties I think?

And for someone who threw out the straw man argument earlier, you sure used it pretty handily in attempting to label my point of view. If you must know, my opposition to fascism does not originate from some refusal to engage with their arguments or point of view (heck, I've read Mein Kampf, have you ?) Instead I view any ideology which promotes supremacy of one group over another for whatever reason as being entirely repugnant and one which should be eradicated entirely. I have identical thoughts about racists and racism too for that matter, should I "engage" with racists too? I have the same opinions about ISIS and I held the same opinions about Saddam Hussein, Milosevic etc too for that matter incase you are curious. What can I say, evil regimes and ideologies have no place and should be removed. You may say that indicates "fascist" tendencies, I view it as more so I am not some weak-willed pacifist enabler 🤷‍♂️

Why would anyone have to even engage with a fascist argument in the first place after all? It's an evil ideology which has no place in the modern world as shown by events which occurred during the past century.  If you wish to engage with that sort of mentality, feel free to do so, that sort of clear enablement is entirely upon you though.

🤷‍♂️

 

Edited by Charles Bolivar
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10 hours ago, MinesomeMC said:

Unfortunately a lot of members of the Left (typically Neo Liberals and farleft) mark anyone who they dont agree with as Alt-Right or "Fascist". You can't simply roll the alt-right when those who are placed there are usually not the alt-right.   

In this case, I'm marking actual fascists as being well...fascists. 

You know, Nazis, brown shirts, Pinochet supporters etc. I'm not talking about some moderate right winger 👍

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3 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Fascism is largely banned under Germany's criminal code unless it is linked to teaching, science and a couple other things I am too lazy to wiki to recall. Funnily enough though, I believe extremist Islam is also banned under the same provisions. Hats off to Germany. There are no fascist parties in Germany, much as their are no Islamic extremist parties and even some far left parties I think?

And for someone who threw out the straw man argument earlier, you sure used it pretty handily in attempting to label my point of view. If you must know, my opposition to fascism does not originate from some refusal to engage with their arguments or point of view (heck, I've read Mein Kampf, have you ?) Instead I view any ideology which promotes supremacy of one group over another for whatever reason as being entirely repugnant and one which should be eradicated entirely. I have identical thoughts about racists and racism too for that matter, should I "engage" with racists too? I have the same opinions about ISIS and I held the same opinions about Saddam Hussein, Milosevic etc too for that matter incase you are curious. What can I say, evil regimes and ideologies have no place and should be removed. You may say that indicates "fascist" tendencies, I view it as more so I am not some weak-willed pacifist enabler 🤷‍♂️

Why would anyone have to even engage with a fascist argument in the first place after all? It's an evil ideology which has no place in the modern world as shown by events which occurred during the past century.  If you wish to engage with that sort of mentality, feel free to do so, that sort of clear enablement is entirely upon you though.

🤷‍♂️

 

Exactly who are you to decide what sort of ideologies are acceptable for people to hold? What should be allowed to be advocated? I defend the rights of fascists to speak and I'd defend the rights of Islamic extremists to speak; you would have a hard time finding a group that I would not advocate for freedom of speech for. Pedos and that's probably about it. One thing you can do to limit your engagement with fascists or indeed anyone else you don't like is simply not speak to them, it's been working for me for years now and so far I have been successful in not speaking to people I don't want to speak to. You have no right however to decide that other people should not be allowed to speak to them or to decide upon your own community standards. I can't speak for COTL or KT's governments but I am reasonably sure that there's no operation underway to force you to join them, and if there are people who are desperate to get into your DMs who you don't want there discord has a 'trust and safety' team who you could report them to. 

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5 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Why would anyone have to even engage with a fascist argument in the first place after all? It's an evil ideology which has no place in the modern world as shown by events which occurred during the past century.  If you wish to engage with that sort of mentality, feel free to do so, that sort of clear enablement is entirely upon you though.

🤷‍♂️

 

You are so fricking pathetic, wow. Your not engaging with fascists or even in an argument about fascism. You are claiming that people who just were on the opposing side of an argument (really not even on a side, mostly neutral) are actual fascists because they don't agree with you. !@#$ off. All anyone ever said was basically just to keep a level head and a bunch of you just jumped on the "you must be a fascistic sympathizer" "setting off serious some serious alarms" bandwagon. You wana call out a fascist? Go right ahead. They deserve it. But you can !@#$ right off once you start using that brush to paint any and all who argue against you as being a fascist/racist as well. I love how you also dust off the "I've read Mein Kampf so I know what I'm talking about, have you?" trope, seriously, no one fricking cares that you read a garbage book; try to stop being trash yourself.

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8 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Why would anyone have to even engage with a fascist argument in the first place after all? It's an evil ideology which has no place in the modern world as shown by events which occurred during the past century.  If you wish to engage with that sort of mentality, feel free to do so, that sort of clear enablement is entirely upon you though.

🤷‍♂️

 

Same thing could be said with Communism 

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14 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Fascism is largely banned under Germany's criminal code unless it is linked to teaching, science and a couple other things I am too lazy to wiki to recall. Funnily enough though, I believe extremist Islam is also banned under the same provisions. Hats off to Germany. There are no fascist parties in Germany, much as their are no Islamic extremist parties and even some far left parties I think?

And for someone who threw out the straw man argument earlier, you sure used it pretty handily in attempting to label my point of view. If you must know, my opposition to fascism does not originate from some refusal to engage with their arguments or point of view (heck, I've read Mein Kampf, have you ?) Instead I view any ideology which promotes supremacy of one group over another for whatever reason as being entirely repugnant and one which should be eradicated entirely. I have identical thoughts about racists and racism too for that matter, should I "engage" with racists too? I have the same opinions about ISIS and I held the same opinions about Saddam Hussein, Milosevic etc too for that matter incase you are curious. What can I say, evil regimes and ideologies have no place and should be removed. You may say that indicates "fascist" tendencies, I view it as more so I am not some weak-willed pacifist enabler 🤷‍♂️

Why would anyone have to even engage with a fascist argument in the first place after all? It's an evil ideology which has no place in the modern world as shown by events which occurred during the past century.  If you wish to engage with that sort of mentality, feel free to do so, that sort of clear enablement is entirely upon you though.

🤷‍♂️

 

I've made no fascist arguments, m8. I'm simply willing to engage against fascist behaviors and arguments as the repugnant things that they are. Which makes it rather odd when you declare a similar stance, then proceed to undermine yourself by declaring that anyone that makes an argument you disagree with should be eradicated (despite somehow professing the opposite in the same paragraph)?

I have not bothered to read Mein Kampf, which is an academic limitation of mine, but I am still quite well educated in American History, having taken several classes on the subject including but not limited to the world wars thank you very much. I am quite well aware of how dangerous fascism can be when applied to a culture that isn't always, always willing to look inwards and make informed internal decisions, even ones that require effort to understand or change.

So, yes. Yes, you should "engage" with racists, ISIS, Saddam Hussein and all the rest, because for the love of all decency they should be told to !@#$ off. We can't DO that though unless either A. we murder literally all of them alongside everyone that even "engaged" with them, and then anyone that "engaged" with those, just to be comprehensive in eliminating even the memory of their sick and twisted modes of thinking, or B. we explain, in detail, exactly why they should be told to !@#$ off with their awful and horrific crimes, and allow them the space necessary to prove themselves worthy of elimination. And, potentially, let them show us exactly what spawned their insanity in the first place so we can prevent the problems that led to their rise, too. Otherwise, we can't expect to grow past these problems as a species, only as a set of individual, fractious, paranoid and deceitful states.

Also, I actually did look up the german fascist party, just google "National Democratic Party of Germany" and you'll get the wiki page, which by the way includes the words "efforts to ban the party have been renewed" and also cites shit from 2011 at the minimum. That process took less than a minute, so I could well have misinterpreted something, but still: they exist, legally if tenuously.

As for pacifism, !@#$ that. I appreciate that people other than myself have different ideas of where their comfort lives, and if they don't want to hurt anyone under any circumstances then I applaud their commitment and self-discipline if nothing else, but I'm no pacifist. Racism, organized crime, disorganized crime, ISIS, !@#$ dictators, pedophilia and otherwise assorted evil deserves a solid boot to the snoot... but not censorship, since those behaviors would therefore not be destroyed but rather would be merely hidden away from our eyes... and our boots. They'd end up in the dark, and therefore would still exist, just with the added bonus of being hidden.

I mean come on man, surely you're not so afraid of seeing these evils exist that you're willing to try and just monkey-see-no-evil them out of existence? Shit that's bad is still bad, owning up to it doesn't make it smell worse.

 

14 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

In this case, I'm marking actual fascists as being well...fascists. 

You know, Nazis, brown shirts, Pinochet supporters etc. I'm not talking about some moderate right winger 👍

Labels labels labels.

What, pray tell, is the practical difference between a "moderate right winger 👍" and a moderate that got swept up into the !@#$ brigade as a matter of force, rather than personal choice? Do remember that any dissenters were, indeed, eradicated... just like you support, come to think of it.

  

5 hours ago, MinesomeMC said:

Same thing could be said with Communism 

You have an academic argument about gulag? Go directly to gulag to study it thenclHgjxE.jpg

 

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
I'm against evil, also against those that hide evil rather than put the effort in
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Being called a fascist enabler is not the same as being called a fascist.

21 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Nuance is hard tho

 

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On 3/11/2021 at 8:16 PM, Thalmor said:

Akuryo, very publicly, said that I should be shot back in December. This did not spur you to ask her to resign. What's the difference between that incident and this most recent one that has caused you lose faith in her? Why is it that this recent drama has changed things?

wish you had this same energy when your own members put war declarations threatening to lynch Queen M and when you yourself put a 1488 bounty on her nation

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3 hours ago, Aiya said:

Being called a fascist enabler is not the same as being called a fascist.

 

Like I said earlier, there's a difference between hate speech, and speech one hates. 

http://www.ala.org/advocacy/intfreedom/hate

Hate speech is when someone has a true intention to slander, degrade, &/or trigger a person or group of people based on ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, physical and mental issues, values, ideals and beliefs.

https://www.history.com/search?query=Fascism

Fascism would be the focus on  ideals, values, and beliefs around dictatoristic forced suppression of opposers, plus  extreme standardization of society and economy. Similar with hate speech, one's got a truly be intentfully while also saying comments and making actions of authoritarian ultranationalistic progression by heartfeltingly agreeing with the beliefs, ideals, and values of the authoritative far right. Not purposely cracking jokes unintended for harm and talking about history around it.

Edited by Firwof Kromwell
Adding & fixing

 

                            memed-iFirwof650x150.jpeg.9a92ea222b9010f9fae97a1864a6759e.jpeg     

 I personally voice my own thought processes based on own desires of informational curiosity as well love for discussion based on questions & statements I made rather just trusting info like a collective hivemind

Onlookers whom hop aboard the brainless bandwagon refusing inter-articulation based on assumed feelings, go give yo balls a tug ya tit fugger         

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16 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said:

...Why would anyone have to even engage with a fascist argument in the first place after all? It's an evil ideology which has no place in the modern world as shown by events which occurred during the past century.  If you wish to engage with that sort of mentality, feel free to do so, that sort of clear enablement is entirely upon you though.

I would engage with such a mentality so as to change their minds...simple.  The downstream effects of this are incalculably more positive than otherwise.  For some it's easier to censor them, shut them down and stoke outrage (a weak-minded response imo), but hardly productive and usually driven by personal agendas rather than altruistic ones.

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Celer Et Audax

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13 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Hi a a, ii understand there's frustration over some people deliberately bothering aku with transphobic shit. I wholeheartedly denounce that and am sorry aku has had to deal with that. If any such stuff comes from ts camp please do dm me logs and I'll have a word. 

 

I also want to share a bit of perspective and hopefully nuance. I have twice been dmed by third parties(not aku) aboutme apparently being transphobic. Whether there was discussion resulting in that conclusion somewhere or whether it was just inferred from my owf posts, I don't know.  I figure the latter. 

In some owf argument, at the time, aku had apparently corrected with a *she in a post. Wrapped up in the ingame argument, I read over it and assumed it was a correction about something ingame (I.e. A who said what).

ask I was surprised to get a dm from a third party about it. That was the first time I was made aware of her gender change. I promptly dmed aku to let her know  it was unintended and that I'd try to be mindful in the future. 

The second time was a shorter time ago. Again, somewhere in a discussion I'd used he instead of she. There was no cause or intention behind it; it was a slip up. 

So I fairly quickly got told I'm transphobic. 

The thing is... I really don't concern myself with ooc unless it's rubbed in my face. Personally - and I'm certain this can be extrapolated to other experiences-I'm just a dude playing a game. I'm not looking for ooc trouble, I've got plenty on my mind irl and I don't track everything that goes on irl with people I talk to, let alone people I don't talk to.

I try to make an effort to be chill about stuff like this. In terms of gender I try to defer to whatever is asked because it doesn't concern or hurt me to try. But at the same time I'm human and both probe to habit and error. That's something I can't entirely erase, even if I try. I hope that does not make me transphobic, and I hope that in that case, we can perhaps try to be a bit milder about the distinction on what's deliberate offense and what isn't. 

 

Well said Snake eyes 😁👍

Just because someone doesn't understand, has different beliefs than those of being trans, or even slips a quick joke doesn't always mean they are transphobic themselves. One's just going to be able to distinguish with the true intent & reasonability versus what feels like transphobia, furthermore making sure about it. 

Plus, my older brother is trans (female to male), so are some of our friends. Infact, I just had a conversation about transgenders yesterday night with him, as well a friend so we could understand each other better. But with all this gray area, there's a lot of uncertainty that comes with trying to decide how people are going to perceive and react to things. Some people even still get offended even when they're told beforehand that one doesn't mean to be.

 

                            memed-iFirwof650x150.jpeg.9a92ea222b9010f9fae97a1864a6759e.jpeg     

 I personally voice my own thought processes based on own desires of informational curiosity as well love for discussion based on questions & statements I made rather just trusting info like a collective hivemind

Onlookers whom hop aboard the brainless bandwagon refusing inter-articulation based on assumed feelings, go give yo balls a tug ya tit fugger         

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4 hours ago, Prefonteen said:

Hi a a, ii understand there's frustration over some people deliberately bothering aku with transphobic shit. I wholeheartedly denounce that and am sorry aku has had to deal with that. If any such stuff comes from ts camp please do dm me logs and I'll have a word. 

 

I also want to share a bit of perspective and hopefully nuance. I have twice been dmed by third parties(not aku) aboutme apparently being transphobic. Whether there was discussion resulting in that conclusion somewhere or whether it was just inferred from my owf posts, I don't know.  I figure the latter. 

In some owf argument, at the time, aku had apparently corrected with a *she in a post. Wrapped up in the ingame argument, I read over it and assumed it was a correction about something ingame (I.e. A who said what).

ask I was surprised to get a dm from a third party about it. That was the first time I was made aware of her gender change. I promptly dmed aku to let her know  it was unintended and that I'd try to be mindful in the future. 

The second time was a shorter time ago. Again, somewhere in a discussion I'd used he instead of she. There was no cause or intention behind it; it was a slip up. 

So I fairly quickly got told I'm transphobic. 

The thing is... I really don't concern myself with ooc unless it's rubbed in my face. Personally - and I'm certain this can be extrapolated to other experiences-I'm just a dude playing a game. I'm not looking for ooc trouble, I've got plenty on my mind irl and I don't track everything that goes on irl with people I talk to, let alone people I don't talk to.

I try to make an effort to be chill about stuff like this. In terms of gender I try to defer to whatever is asked because it doesn't concern or hurt me to try. But at the same time I'm human and both probe to habit and error. That's something I can't entirely erase, even if I try. I hope that does not make me transphobic, and I hope that in that case, we can perhaps try to be a bit milder about the distinction on what's deliberate offense and what isn't. 

 

Hi Partisan,

I do not believe you are transphobic and have never seen, heard or had any conversations with you that would lead me to believe that you would be- and I've had more than most outside of t$. I'm no longer in any offsite PnW community, but if I ever did come across something specific regarding a t$ member, I would raise it with you.

Screwing up pronouns by accident is not transphobia. I probably did the same thing all the time internally in CoTL. Screwing up pronouns deliberately, however, is a form of transphobia, and those parties likely assumed that your choice of language was not an accident. For people with zero knowledge of who you are OOC, who may have other pre-existing reasons to want to think the worst of you IC... it's a short sighted and frustrating step, but it happens.

If there's 1000 active players on the site, there's 1000 different points of view, and each of those individual 1000 points includes a unique sub-point of view on all of the 999 other people they know of. We can be wary of a hot stove, but that doesn't mean we allow half a dozen badly judged impressions out of 1000 others get in the way of standing up for the right thing. Especially when there are people who are absolutely beyond the pale that need to be stood up to, and who are trying to use similar logic to disguise themselves and remain malignant for longer.

Hope you're doing well, mate.

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On 3/21/2021 at 8:54 PM, Kurdanak said:

In P&W's defense, to some extent, Nordreich did come to P&W as well during Beta in 2013/14 and were promptly banned! CN provided a great case study of what not to do there. :P (that said, agreed)

But it also let Afrika Korps exist which was literally a direct branch of the !@#$ military. So uneven moderation has not only allowed this problem to exist, but also flourish. 

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2 hours ago, Comrade Joe said:

But it also let Afrika Korps exist which was literally a direct branch of the !@#$ military. So uneven moderation has not only allowed this problem to exist, but also flourish. 

Fair enough, hence the "to some extent" - luckily the Afrika Korps problem took care of itself. Clean Wehrmacht myth sort of ridiculous nonsense is an unfortunately a recurring theme, though, yeah. I don't believe there are any alliances still in existence that explicitly theme along those lines, at least, but it certainly perpetuates the problem that there had been in the first place.

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On 3/22/2021 at 9:57 AM, namukara said:

Exactly who are you to decide what sort of ideologies are acceptable for people to hold? What should be allowed to be advocated? I defend the rights of fascists to speak and I'd defend the rights of Islamic extremists to speak; you would have a hard time finding a group that I would not advocate for freedom of speech for. Pedos and that's probably about it. One thing you can do to limit your engagement with fascists or indeed anyone else you don't like is simply not speak to them, it's been working for me for years now and so far I have been successful in not speaking to people I don't want to speak to. You have no right however to decide that other people should not be allowed to speak to them or to decide upon your own community standards.

its quite simple,,, we defeat extremism in the marketplace of ideas or by simply ignoring it

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53 minutes ago, WarriorSoul said:

its quite simple,,, we defeat extremism in the marketplace of ideas or by simply ignoring it

I was referring to the people on this thread who have such an extreme fear of ideas they find distasteful that they wish them banished from sight. 

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8 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

Well said Snake eyes 😁👍

Just because someone doesn't understand, has different beliefs than those of being trans, or even slips a quick joke doesn't always mean they are transphobic themselves. One's just going to be able to distinguish with the true intent & reasonability versus what feels like transphobia, furthermore making sure about it. 

Plus, my older brother is trans (female to male), so are some of our friends. Infact, I just had a conversation about transgenders yesterday night with him, as well a friend so we could understand each other better. But with all this gray area, there's a lot of uncertainty that comes with trying to decide how people are going to perceive and react to things. Some people even still get offended even when they're told beforehand that one doesn't mean to be.

No. Don't twist my words please. I speaking on ignorance or forgetfulness. "slipping in a quick joke" doesn't fall under making an effort to respect different persons for who they are. 

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5 hours ago, Avakael said:

Hi Partisan,

I do not believe you are transphobic and have never seen, heard or had any conversations with you that would lead me to believe that you would be- and I've had more than most outside of t$. I'm no longer in any offsite PnW community, but if I ever did come across something specific regarding a t$ member, I would raise it with you.

Screwing up pronouns by accident is not transphobia. I probably did the same thing all the time internally in CoTL. Screwing up pronouns deliberately, however, is a form of transphobia, and those parties likely assumed that your choice of language was not an accident. For people with zero knowledge of who you are OOC, who may have other pre-existing reasons to want to think the worst of you IC... it's a short sighted and frustrating step, but it happens.

If there's 1000 active players on the site, there's 1000 different points of view, and each of those individual 1000 points includes a unique sub-point of view on all of the 999 other people they know of. We can be wary of a hot stove, but that doesn't mean we allow half a dozen badly judged impressions out of 1000 others get in the way of standing up for the right thing. Especially when there are people who are absolutely beyond the pale that need to be stood up to, and who are trying to use similar logic to disguise themselves and remain malignant for longer.

Hope you're doing well, mate.

I'm good, thanks! Hope you are as well. 

I ddo agree with what you're saying. The distinction is generally hard to make unless you know someone more intimately, and you simply can't know 1000 people that well.

One of the persons that approached me at the time imo did so particularly admirably. he didn't do anything extraordinary. He simply approached me and asked, respectfully whether I knew and whether it was deliberate. Once I clarified, he thanked me for hearing him out and we went our ways. 

That was the convo which prompted me to shoot aku a msg to clear it up. His approach was admirable due to its contrast with how (combative) many approach these more polarized and sensitive subjects. 

I guess that what I'm advocating is moderation. On both sides. Most people mean well and are more than anything, too stuck in their own bubble and their own life to seek out ooc conflict.  It'd be great if some of the more zealous among us could be more mindful of that. 

On the other side, making a conscious effort to not make people uncomfortable over their identity unnecessarily, particularly when it doesn't cost you a thing is really a bare minimum. When you know something bugs someone, continuing deliberately to make that person miserable for shits and giggles isn't funny. 

 

... It's pathetic. 

 

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