A sad truth about the Swampy Rose Hedge...

[WarriorSoul]

8 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Based on that evidence, plus the evidence of the behaviour and words of some Swamp leaders I know, I have determined that it is extremely unlikely that Swamp wanted to attack first.

You are agreeing with me in that despite weeks of evidence mounting against the narrative you have so painstakingly constructed, you are basing your belief that Swamp did not want to strike first exclusively on what they said. Which, if the court reporter would please read my words back to me: 

9 minutes ago, WarriorSoul said:

I am instead choosing to take the verbal denials from Swamp at face value

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by WarriorSoul

[katashimon13]

16 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I no longer believe that honesty is one of your objectives here.

u seem to have good instinct 

rawr

[Hodor]

3 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

The current discussion is about how your side has become silent, after getting trounced in threads such as that.  Yes, in the beginning, your side was more willing to engage.  But now, your side bemoans how they have to hide from the forums because "t$/TKR cOnTroL tHe nArRaTiVe."  Which is just a funny way of admitting that we're correct and you don't have a leg to stand on.  The only thing left is Phoenyx disingenuously repeating firmly debunked hypotheses.

Where has anyone on our side claimed y'all control the narrative? The person who genuinely complained about the narrative in this thread is on y'all's side of the war...

There is no point in continuing a conversation after everything has been said. Is there more to discuss? Phoenyx is the only one speaking because Phoenyx is playing catch up and, bless his heart, is truly terrible at it.

[HeroofTime55]

1 minute ago, Hodor said:

Where has anyone on our side claimed y'all control the narrative? The person who genuinely complained about the narrative in this thread is on y'all's side of the war...

Multiple people on your side in multiple places have made the claim, including in that radio program.  I am not going to dig up every time it's been claimed, but it's been a lot.  Enough to the point that it's Phoenyx-level delusion to claim otherwise.  I will assume you simply haven't been paying attention and encourage you to look around.

[Hodor]

1 minute ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Multiple people on your side in multiple places have made the claim, including in that radio program.  I am not going to dig up every time it's been claimed, but it's been a lot.  Enough to the point that it's Phoenyx-level delusion to claim otherwise.  I will assume you simply haven't been paying attention and encourage you to look around.

I truly haven't been paying as close attention, so I'll give you that, but what is left to discuss?

[HeroofTime55]

Just now, Hodor said:

I truly haven't been paying as close attention, so I'll give you that, but what is left to discuss?

Very little, in actuality.  The next series of events will be carried forth by actions, not words.

[Hodor]

1 minute ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Very little, in actuality.  The next series of events will be carried forth by actions, not words.

So.... our silence... is justified?

[HeroofTime55]

Just now, Hodor said:

So.... our silence... is justified?

More justified than the lies you initially tried to pass.  Your quiet acceptance that our cause is just is duly noted.

[Adrienne]

6 minutes ago, Hodor said:

So.... our silence... is justified?

His point is moreover the silence that's existed from the start of the war by several main actors who could have contributed and instead have completely refused to do so. We had questions. They declined to engage with them, although I do suppose silence is a form of response. Your sphere, and really more specifically your alliance, is about the only one that has posted throughout this war.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Adrienne

[Charles Bolivar]

3 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

More justified than the lies you initially tried to pass.  Your quiet acceptance that our cause is just is duly noted.

Everyone always believes their cause is just and righteous though. 

[Hodor]

1 minute ago, HeroofTime55 said:

More justified than the lies you initially tried to pass.  Your quiet acceptance that our cause is just is duly noted.

Okay, but you opened up your posting decrying our silence... gotta make up your mind my dude... keep the narrative straight  

Also, use y'all or your side, I assure you I tell no lies.

Just now, Adrienne said:

His point is moreover the silence that's existed from the start of the war by several main actors. Your sphere is about the only one that has posted throughout this war.

Hedge Money has a hegemony on coalition speech!

Jokes aside, this makes sense. Y'all gotta leave us outta this Swamp and Rose bashing then, or else we'll use our overwhelming powers of speech against you!

[HeroofTime55]

5 minutes ago, Hodor said:

Okay, but you opened up your posting decrying our silence... gotta make up your mind my dude... keep the narrative straight  

"Decrying" is not the word I would use.  Amused observation, really.

[Thrawn]

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, HeroofTime55 said:

You couldn't argue that, as I do not believe in permanent peace.  Our coalition went out of our way to NOT form a hegemony, for the sake of keeping an interesting, multi-polar world which might produce interesting conflicts.  We have, clearly, made a grand error in our calculus, as everyone else in the game had no problem whatsoever joining forces to crush us.

You think I believe there will be permanent peace :-p? I think your Coalition did take steps to avoid a hegemony, as you say. I think your mistake was in believing in Boyce's words without trying to confirm with HM/TCW first. Had you not done that, I sincerely believe you would not currently have all these joined forces attacking you now. 

 

Perhaps even more importantly, if your side would just ask some pointed questions to Boyce, you might find the truth is not what you were led to believe. That in an of itself could be the beginning of the end of this war.

1 hour ago, WarriorSoul said:

You are agreeing with me in that despite weeks of evidence mounting against the narrative you have so painstakingly constructed, you are basing your belief that Swamp did not want to strike first exclusively on what they said.

 

Not just what the said- on what they did and continue to do. The very essence of Swamp is defensive in nature.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, Hodor said:

Where has anyone on our side claimed y'all control the narrative? The person who genuinely complained about the narrative in this thread is on y'all's side of the war...

There is no point in continuing a conversation after everything has been said.

 

What has not been said is what a certain HM leader meant by something he said to Ronnie. The conversation in question:

 

So, did this HM leader mean that Swamp wanted to counter attack or engage in a first strike? Simple question, should be a simple answer. I'm sure that Ronnie could ask this HM leader the question. Perhaps he has. But I'm sure you can understand that many people here are eager to hear what the answer is.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Phoenyx]

50 minutes ago, Adrienne said:

His point is moreover the silence that's existed from the start of the war by several main actors who could have contributed and instead have completely refused to do so. We had questions. They declined to engage with them, although I do suppose silence is a form of response. Your sphere, and really more specifically your alliance, is about the only one that has posted throughout this war.

Tyrion posted many times at first, being very adamant that he had no knowledge of a plan to attack Quack. After a while, he decided there wasn't any point to continue denying it and left it at that. He left before Ronnie revealed the source of his information. After reading it, he agreed with me that Ronnie's source was far more ambiguous then Ronnie's statement. I felt that pressure should be applied to try to find out what Ronnie's source meant, he felt that applying this pressure could alienate Grumpy at an inopportune time and that was that, for a while. Then I got angry with the situation, because I thought that this wasn't working out for a narrative perspective and so I wrote this thread. He may not be pleased with it, but I still think it was the right thing to do. 

[WarriorSoul]

28 minutes ago, Arric II Vysera said:

Dude i've spent the vast majority of the last 8 months at home. this is the most entertainment I get.

 

5 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Not just what the said- on what they did and continue to do. The very essence of Swamp is defensive in nature.

The optional aggression component of the Swamp Bloc treaty necessarily refutes this claim.

In all seriousness though, it's almost farcical to say something like that. "The every essence of Swamp is defensive in nature" he says literally three months after Swamp and Hedge aggressively dogpile TCW.

[Phoenyx]

51 minutes ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Everyone always believes their cause is just and righteous though. 

Not everyone, but most people, yeah :-p. 

3 minutes ago, WarriorSoul said:

Dude i've spent the vast majority of the last 8 months at home. this is the most entertainment I get.

 

The optional aggression component of the Swamp Bloc treaty necessarily refutes this claim.

In all seriousness though, it's almost farcical to say something like that. "The every essence of Swamp is defensive in nature" he says literally three months after Swamp and Hedge aggressively dogpile TCW.

 

From what I understand, that war could be seen as defensive in nature, kind of like Quack is arguing that their attacking TCW and HM is defensive in nature as they believe they were about to be attacked. However, Swamp didn't start that war based on rumours of TCW about to attack them, but rather on what TCW had done previously. 

[WarriorSoul]

12 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

From what I understand, that war could be seen as defensive in nature, kind of like Quack is arguing that their attacking TCW and HM is defensive in nature as they believe they were about to be attacked. However, Swamp didn't start that war based on rumours of TCW about to attack them, but rather on what TCW had done previously. 

When you put it that way, it sounds more like the war was declared against TCW for past grievances, which would qualify as revenge, which I would define in far different terms than I would define preemptively declaring against a pre-assembled coalition who were planning to attack us anyway.

[Sisyphus]

1 hour ago, Hodor said:

Phoenyx is playing catch up and, bless his heart, is truly terrible at it.

Brave of you to assume that Phoenyx is actually trying. 

[Thalmor]

1 hour ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Multiple people on your side in multiple places have made the claim, including in that radio program.  I am not going to dig up every time it's been claimed, but it's been a lot.  Enough to the point that it's Phoenyx-level delusion to claim otherwise.  I will assume you simply haven't been paying attention and encourage you to look around.

The name of my show (Thalmor Radio) isn't some curse that strikes down the person who utters it. It's okay to say it lol.

I've claimed several times that your side controls the narrative, but it's an observation. I have not claimed that my side is hiding nor that there isn't 'a leg to stand on' in diplomatic talks. Don't read so much into what I say. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Thalmor
I can't spell plz halp

[Adrienne]

17 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

The name of my show (XXXXXXX Radio) isn't some curse that strikes down the person who utters it. It's okay to say it lol.

It won't?

58 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Tyrion posted many times at first, being very adamant that he had no knowledge of a plan to attack Quack. After a while, he decided there wasn't any point to continue denying it and left it at that. He left before Ronnie revealed the source of his information. After reading it, he agreed with me that Ronnie's source was far more ambiguous then Ronnie's statement. I felt that pressure should be applied to try to find out what Ronnie's source meant, he felt that applying this pressure could alienate Grumpy at an inopportune time and that was that, for a while. Then I got angry with the situation, because I thought that this wasn't working out for a narrative perspective and so I wrote this thread. He may not be pleased with it, but I still think it was the right thing to do. 

Tyrion only posted a couple times and he's also not the only leader in your coalition. This isn't something unique to TI or even Swamp but the coalition as a whole, for the most part. (Did I do good, @Hodor? 😘)

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, WarriorSoul said:

When you put it that way, it sounds more like the war was declared against TCW for past grievances, which would qualify as revenge, which I would define in far different terms than I would define preemptively declaring against a pre-assembled coalition who were planning to attack us anyway.

 

I would define it more as retribution. As to the whole bit about "were planning to attack us anyway", that contention is actually why I wrote this and other threads to begin with- because I see the evidence for that to be thin at best. It depends almost entirely on the words of Boyce and Ronnie's HM leader source. Thus, the wish to dig further in those areas. It's just that neither Quack or HM seem all that interested in pursuing these lines of investigation.

[donsberger]

3 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

I would define it more as retribution. As to the whole bit about "were planning to attack us anyway", that contention is actually why I wrote this and other threads to begin with- because I see the evidence for that to be thin at best. It depends almost entirely on the words of Boyce and Ronnie's HM leader source. Thus, the wish to dig further in those areas. It's just that neither Quack or HM seem all that interested in pursuing these lines of investigation.

And your continuance to purposely outright ignore what one side said means they won't bother doing anything for you.

[Phoenyx]

39 minutes ago, Adrienne said:

It won't?

Tyrion only posted a couple times and he's also not the only leader in your coalition. This isn't something unique to TI or even Swamp but the coalition as a whole, for the most part. (Did I do good, @Hodor? 😘)

 

You did as far as I'm concerned. I think it's good to recognize that the forces currently arrayed against Quack are not really a single group but actually several groups that decided to band together in the event that Quack attacked. From what I can see, Tyrion posted what he felt was relevant to post. I think he might have initially missed how important what Ronny said was.

 

When I saw it, I came to the conclusion that it was quite important, which is why I messaged Ronny privately and got him to reveal the source of his information that got him to say that Swamp had come to HM "a month ago, asking about hitting you guys". He had left this forum and so hadn't seen Ronny's response, but I showed it to him and he pointed out the same thing I had realized- that Ronny's source was far more ambiguous as to what Swamp had wanted. Ronnie's log:

 

Soon after receiving his message, I asked Ronny additional questions:

I asked those questions 11 days ago. Still no response from Ronny.

 

8 minutes ago, donsberger said:

And your continuance to purposely outright ignore what one side said means they won't bother doing anything for you.

 

What exactly do you think I'm ignoring?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Phoenyx