Boyce and his role in the current global war

[Phoenyx]

 

I've brought this up in other threads, but I don't think it's really gotten the attention it's deserved, so decided to make a thread dedicated to the subject. In Partisan's t$ OP for his Declaration of War against HM, he has some screenshots of some logs. Much has been made of what Sphinx has said, but I personally found that the most interesting log was not anything that Sphinx said, but rather a screenshot of what Boyce said in conversation with Vader:

Why do I find it so interesting? Because in all the logs I saw from Sphinx, it seems to me that he was talking about a -defensive- Coalition, not an offensive one interested in delivering a first strike against Quack. This really matters, because most if not all of the reason that T$ went to war with HM, which led to the global war, is precisely because T$ thought that if they didn't, they would have been attacked first. 

 

So, what I'd like to ask is, what evidence did Boyce have that HM and Swamp were -really- going to attack first? Was it just some rank and file Swamp member with delusions of grandeur? Because both Tyrion, head of the largest Alliance in Swamp, and a very high level TFP official in the second largest Alliance in Swamp, TFP, have been adamant that they were not contemplating attacking T$ first.  Here is Tyrion's post on the matter:

On 11/2/2020 at 11:19 AM, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

 

Time for Quack to show their cards. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Phoenyx
Misplaced pic.

[BigMorf]

... Are you just going to ignore the fact that we’ve had multiple people from the other side confirm that there were said discussions??

Don’t be daft. 

[Prefonteen]

As I explained to you when we spoke a few days ago: your consistent demand for more proof when presented with logs and/or facts and your constant reinterpretation of established facts while simultaneously taking proof less deflections at face value makes it pretty impossible to continue indulging you. 

 

So, big pass. 

[Phoenyx]

17 minutes ago, BigMorf said:

... Are you just going to ignore the fact that we’ve had multiple people from the other side confirm that there were said discussions??

Don’t be daft. 

I think that you, like many others, have confused a -defensive- Coalition in the event that Quack attacked for an -offensive- one. Show me a single post where someone who -actually- talked to Swamp said that Swamp was planning an offensive Coalition. Ronny doesn't count- he never actually spoke to anyone in Swamp. His fellow HM leader may have, but if you look at what -they- said, there was no mention of Swamp or HM hitting first- only a plan to create a group that would -counter- Quack's growth. Now, it has been argued that that could be read as attacking, but that's a pretty big accusation to make. Ronny hasn't commented on who this HM leader was, so can't go further on that side. But Boyce was in Partisan's War DoW. That's pretty heady stuff and he's the -only- person who I've found who straight up accused HM/Swamp of being on the verge of attacking Quack. Big accusations should have a lot of evidence behind them. So my question is, is that the case? Because from what I seen so far, the answer is a resounding no.

[Phoenyx]

11 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

As I explained to you when we spoke a few days ago: your consistent demand for more proof when presented with logs and/or facts and your constant reinterpretation of established facts while simultaneously taking proof less deflections at face value makes it pretty impossible to continue indulging you. 

 

So, big pass. 

 

I've seen all the logs I can get my hands on, but the -only- one where someone actually straight up accuses HM/Swamp of being on the verge of attacking Quack is Boyce's. This raises a lot of questions- did he actually talk to anyone in Swamp? If so, who? The fact that Tyrion and TFP, the 2 largest Alliances in Swamp, have been adamant that they were -not- going to attack you first deserves more than a dismissive response. Tyrion is the leader of Immortals. All I see is Boyce talking to Sphinx and Sphinx -never- said that HM/Swamp was going to attack first. So where's the evidence that this was going to happen?

[The Titan]

Aight, listen up. You're getting really annoying. I feel like you're believing everything your side is telling you, and then you're taking what we give and throwing it away. You're a good forum poster, i'll give you that, but your facts are wrong, repeatedly. Why are you even arguing on the forums anyway? Aren't you in some swamp prot micro?

This is the last time I am going to respond to you with more blatant evidence, but,

As you can see, Sphinx says "I suppose you'd be keen on joining a future coalition against you know who when it eventually forms" this is just after Sphinx talks about "evening the playing field" and discussion about going on the offensive against T$-TKR sphere. Not to mention, your own side in Hedge was using Boyce logs as a CB for the last war, why is he all of the sudden unreliable? Why would you believe what your TFP friends are saying when theirs are self-contradictory yet our point has physical logs?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Lord Vader
grammar

[The Titan]

21 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

~Snip~

Bruh, what part of "countering" Quack's growth doesn't sound offensive? As we've seen manifested by this we grow faster than them by simply tiering and recruiting, even whilst they spam cities and treaties. Are we doing it for dominance? No, of course not; Are we glad we do it? Of course, who would be upset at us building thriving alliances?;

[Phoenyx]

On 11/16/2020 at 10:11 AM, Lord Vader said:

Aight, listen up. You're getting really annoying. I feel like you're believing everything your side is telling you, and then you're taking what we give and throwing it away. You're a good forum poster, i'll give you that, but your facts are wrong, repeatedly. Why are you even arguing on the forums anyway? Aren't you in some swamp prot micro?

This is the last time I am going to respond to you with more blatant evidence, but,

As you can see, Sphinx says "I suppose you'd be keen on joining a future coalition against you know who when it eventually forms" this is just after Sphinx talks about "evening the playing field" and discussion about going on the offensive against T$-TKR sphere. Not to mention, your own side in Hedge was using Boyce logs as a CB for the last war, why is he all of the sudden unreliable? Why would you believe what your TFP friends are saying when theirs are self-contradictory yet our point has physical logs?

 

Sphinx never says "offensive" anywhere in that text. Furthermore, Sphinx had just joined Swamp. He was clearly the junior partner. Did he want to go on the offensive? Maybe. But from what Tyrion and my high level TFP source have said, this was not even brought up with them. And had it been, they would have turned it down without hesitation. It's all right there in Tyrion's post from November 2nd: 

On 11/2/2020 at 11:19 AM, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

 

On the same day, he said the following as well, which I really think is worth mentioning:

  

On 11/2/2020 at 1:20 PM, Lord Tyrion said:

For Sisyphus' comment - it seems SRD was under the impression there was a push to form a coalition.  And as SRD confirmed since, he heard this secondhand, so maybe we eventually uncover who the parties were - I just know who they aren't.  I am aware Sphinx felt that way about Quack before we fought TCW because he came to us when our war with them started and said why are you coming for us when there's another sphere that's going to dominate the game?  So I would imagine the intel SRD got is likely from/through Sphinx - but we had zero politics strategy discussions with Sphinx, we purposely kept him at arms length for a trial period to see if the relationship could be built.  After addition to Swamp, we didn't hear of Sphinx having any such conversations around the game and certainly didn't with Swamp FA leaders.  Sphinx left prior to this current war, yet TCW was still on the hook for his actions and that CB, yet Boyce shared the same thoughts in the DM leaks with Sphinx but was trusted into Quack sphere.  The intel being used for that portion of the CB was faulty (again, not faulting Quack for running with it) and if we had a chance to discuss prior to entire game militarization, I suspect this whole thing would have been avoided.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Phoenyx
spelling error

[The Titan]

Bruh, I am just done with you. Begon peasent. 
Tyrion himself even said his conversation was brief with you, and you obviously shouldn't believe everything Kaz tells you.

[Phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Bruh, what part of "countering" Quack's growth doesn't sound offensive? As we've seen manifested by this we grow faster than them by simply tiering and recruiting, even whilst they spam cities and treaties. Are we doing it for dominance? No, of course not; Are we glad we do it? Of course, who would be upset at us building thriving alliances?;

The question that must be asked is, even that bit about "countering" Swamp's growth, who said it? Because it may be that it was once again Sphinx. It all depends on who this HM Leader's source was, but the more I look at it, the more it seems clear that any ideas of an offensive first strike were -not- coming from the Swamp leadership. 

[The Titan]

Just now, Phoenyx said:

The question that must be asked is, even that bit about "countering" Swamp's growth, who said it? Because it may be that it was once again Sphinx. It all depends on who this HM Leader's source was, but the more I look at it, the more it seems clear that any ideas of an offensive first strike were -not- coming from the Swamp leadership. 

Swamp and Hedge leaders have both used that term

[Shiho Nishizumi]

You're putting too much stock on someone who openly lied about a different, albeit very related matter.

And before you argue "Well that's not directly related to the plot"; credibility (or lack thereof) is something that's a constant across different topics and matters.

[Redarmy]

This is some good bait. 

[Phoenyx]

Just now, Lord Vader said:

Bruh, I am just done with you. Begon peasent. 
Tyrion himself even said his conversation was brief with you, and you obviously shouldn't believe everything Kaz tells you.

When he made that comment, yes, it was. However, he later inspired me to re read what he'd already written and he had already written quite a lot. I just think that it's time we really look hard at what he wrote because if what he says is true, it looks like this whole war was started due to the possible ambitions of very few- perhaps just Sphinx himself. I can only hope that both Ronny's HM leader and Boyce tell us if they talked to anyone other than Sphinx, because if they didn't, well, I think we can see where this whole notion of an offensive strike started and ended with.

[Kyubnyan]

1 minute ago, Redarmy said:

This is some good bait. 

If only, pretty sure this dude is actually serious.

[WarriorSoul]

29 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Show me a single post where someone who -actually- talked to Swamp said that Swamp was planning an offensive Coalition.

"Show me a single post where someone admits outright the very thing they've all committed to deny entirely!"

Edited November 16, 2020 by WarriorSoul

[Prefonteen]

2 minutes ago, Redarmy said:

This is some good bait. 

Please send help. I'm triggered.

[BigMorf]

30 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

I think that you, like many others, have confused a -defensive- Coalition in the event that Quack attacked for an -offensive- one. Show me a single post where someone who -actually- talked to Swamp said that Swamp was planning an offensive Coalition. Ronny doesn't count- he never actually spoke to anyone in Swamp. His fellow HM leader may have, but if you look at what -they- said, there was no mention of Swamp or HM hitting first- only a plan to create a group that would -counter- Quack's growth. Now, it has been argued that that could be read as attacking, but that's a pretty big accusation to make. Ronny hasn't commented on who this HM leader was, so can't go further on that side. But Boyce was in Partisan's War DoW. That's pretty heady stuff and he's the -only- person who I've found who straight up accused HM/Swamp of being on the verge of attacking Quack. Big accusations should have a lot of evidence behind them. So my question is, is that the case? Because from what I seen so far, the answer is a resounding no.

You are very talented at putting your fingers in your ears and talking at a wall. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by BigMorf

[Phoenyx]

3 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Swamp and Hedge leaders have both used that term

Swamp leaders have made it very clear that they meant it -defensively-. The only one who clearly said differently wasn't a Swamp leader- it was Boyce. Thus, back to the beginning- did Boyce actually talk to anyone other than Sphinx for his information? Because from what Tyrion said, Sphinx definitely wasn't part of the Swamp leadership. 

[The Titan]

Just now, Phoenyx said:

When he made that comment, yes, it was. However, he later inspired me to re read what he'd already written and he had already written quite a lot. I just think that it's time we really look hard at what he wrote because if what he says is true, it looks like this whole war was started due to the possible ambitions of very few- perhaps just Sphinx himself. I can only hope that both Ronny's HM leader and Boyce tell us if they talked to anyone other than Sphinx, because if they didn't, well, I think we can see where this whole notion of an offensive strike started and ended with.

We can't even verify what he says is true, I consider Tyrion a friend. He and I get a long really well, he is basically the one who taught me to play initially. But something isn't right here, what he says disputes what Ronny says and is disputed by Tarroc. All of which should be considered reliable sources. I, however, have presented you logs that can not be disputed, it's painted in black and white.

[WarriorSoul]

Just now, BigMorf said:

You are very talented at putting your fingers in your ears and talking at a wall. 

I wouldn't necessarily call you a wall.

[Phoenyx]

4 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

You're putting too much stock on someone who openly lied about a different, albeit very related matter.

And before you argue "Well that's not directly related to the plot"; credibility (or lack thereof) is something that's a constant across different topics and matters.

Ah, a new piece of information, always good. Here is the thing- Tyrion's not in the Commonwealth. That was -Sphinx's- domain and Tyrion has already established that TCW was a new member and they were keeping them at arm's length to see if they could actually be a good fit for Swamp. 

[The Titan]

2 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Swamp leaders have made it very clear that they meant it -defensively-. The only one who clearly said differently wasn't a Swamp leader- it was Boyce. Thus, back to the beginning- did Boyce actually talk to anyone other than Sphinx for his information? Because from what Tyrion said, Sphinx definitely wasn't part of the Swamp leadership. 

Ronny, from hedge. This is clearly aggressive because it is strongly implying breaking up Quack.

[Phoenyx]

1 minute ago, Lord Vader said:

We can't even verify what he says is true, I consider Tyrion a friend. He and I get a long really well, he is basically the one who taught me to play initially. But something isn't right here, what he says disputes what Ronny says and is disputed by Tarroc. All of which should be considered reliable sources. I, however, have presented you logs that can not be disputed, it's painted in black and white.

The problem here is that Ronny never talked to anyone in Swamp. It's quite possible his fellow HM leader did, but we don't know who this fellow HM leader was. Furthermore, it seems to me that this HM leader may have been talking to Sphinx. Anyway, whether we ever find out who this HM Leader was talking to is anyone's guess. But what I'd like to know is, did Boyce talk to anyone other than Sphinx on all of this?

[The Titan]

2 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Ah, a new piece of information, always good. Here is the thing- Tyrion's not in the Commonwealth. That was -Sphinx's- domain and Tyrion has already established that TCW was a new member and they were keeping them at arm's length to see if they could actually be a good fit for Swamp. 

tCW: Has an MDoAP with swamp which is an MDoAP bloc
Also tCW: Not part of swamp 

🤔