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A (Not So) Brief Note on the Narrative


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49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Food for thought on the last paragraph: On the flip side you could say the same; our decision to hit tcw is irrelevant due to the pre-existenve of the swamp-hm agreement. That's something that's been brought to me in private a good few times.

  Agreed.

49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

I think shiho noted how we assessed it at the time already: We anticipated HM and TCW to be 100% involved, and our plans revolved around a highest likelihood of 2/3 of the spheres entering.

Sure, Cooper said that he had no idea about the secret treaty. That was new news to me. What you've said here was what my understanding was originally.

49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

For perspective: The idea of hitting *just* HM was floated briefly as well. It would have been a more convenient way to force any such coalition to choose between revealing secret treaties or steering clear. It would also have been a dogpile and a shitty war.

We chose not to, part for ideological reasons, part because it'd be inconsistent with our CB (the log). I personally regret that now :P.

  A rare slip up, my friend.

49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

A post by mayor is different from an official alliance stance. Similarly, hearing the same thing repeated in discord channels and threads (in different words) is generally indicative of a general consensus among an alliance or side.

The thing is, that every time we bring up statements that contradicted earlier statements (from leadership), or graphs to counterpoint claims of our size, we're thrown another argument inspired by well, little more than feeling or perception I guess?

I haven't really been involved anywhere but on the forums, so my entire experience is framed by the conversations had here. I am perfectly aware there are other conversations going on that I am ignorant to, it's hard to tell on the forum when you are responding to a DM/Discord convo or the actual thread.

49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Are you certain cooper is not calling out the leaders who made these deals?

  I mean, that would be breaking with tradition, but I suppose he could be. @Cooper_ who is the intended audience of this thread?

49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

As noted above and by shiho: Our reasonable estimate/expectation was 2/3 entering/being true. Fewer and more were possibilities we obviously had contingencies for, but the 2/3 was the expectation (or hope). At least, when we made the call to militarize.

The logs suggested HM/TCW were aboard for sure. Swamp/Rose were still both more ambiguous, and so we had to rely on our own assessment. Though our expectations were met (and suspicions confirmed) we did not have *that* benefit of hindsight when we made the call.

I'll note that as the week went by, we increasingly viewed 3/3 as a likelihood. By the time we pulled the trigger, we were 99% certain both rose and swamp would enter (based mostly on deduction and assessment of posture + movements).

The logs that have no one from HM leadership in them, yes. I am aware you have other logs and I implore you to dump them. I am still not sure about your expectations being met. So far Ronny confirmed that an aggressive war was floated but not pursued, and mot everyone has admitted to a defensive plan against Quack aggression, which you assure us wasn't going to happen, so that's a non issue?

49 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Screen Shot 2020-10-31 at 2.18.09 AM.png

Im not sure what else to say Hodor.

I see that you're one of 2 large spheres in the landscape? Swamp is numerically bigger, though Quack holds an advantage in the C21-C34 category. I'd bet money in a 1v1 Quack wins pretty handily for a number of reasons, but that's one simple minded stable boy's assessment.

Given HM has amicable relations with Swamp, pretty reasonable to think you're the threat, no?

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1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I wish we were that smart...

Who needs intelligence when our attackers had apparently already assumed there would be a dogpile waiting on them when they attacked, but instead of delaying attacking and attempting some FA to reduce the size of the aforementioned dogpile, they decided Leeroy Jenkins was a better role model to follow and just attacked anyway.

🤷‍♂️

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25 minutes ago, Leopold von Habsburg said:

Yes he was. He only stepped down 2 days before the war broke out and threw himself into VM. The timing is certainly convenient.

Indeed. I think it's all becoming clear. When Sphinx said that "Swamp" was going to attack, he was just dreaming big. Because so far, the only member of Swamp who had thinks that Swamp was really going to hit Quack was, well, Sphynx.  Here's something that Ronny told me an hour ago. I had been thinking of holding on to it to make sure he was ok with me sharing it but at this point, well, I think we may finally be getting to the one and only source of this Swamp "attack" on Quack. It wasn't an aggressive attack treaty, it was only an idea to counter Quack's growth, which is pretty ambiguous. Tyrion had already said he'd worked on a deal with Rose, which may have happened because Grumpy wouldn't join unless Rose was a part of this counter plan...

**

This is the direct quote I got from one of my fellow HM leaders when i learned about you guys [he means Swamp, as I'm in it] wanting to hit Quack. 

Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea.

Side note about 5 mins later I said this.

"i will say that i dont trust TCW to not leak this early

[1:03 PM]

which is my concern about fighting with TCW"

I hate being right.

**

6 minutes ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Who needs intelligence when our attackers had apparently already assumed there would be a dogpile waiting on them when they attacked, but instead of delaying attacking and attempting some FA to reduce the size of the aforementioned dogpile, they decided Leeroy Jenkins was a better role model to follow and just attacked anyway.

🤷‍♂️

Gotta say, this sounds about right...

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2 hours ago, WarriorSoul said:

Cool, so based on your research, it seems that Swamp, Hedge, and Rose were determined to peacefully coexist together with Quack in a constant state of war-less bliss, despite the numerous people from your coalition on this very forum(!) explaining how Quack's size was an obvious threat. Am I getting that right?

Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing the dissonance here!

 

 

Have you considered that we'd be willing to co-exist with your size, like we all have for months, if you didn't start globals  to "bait other spheres into war" as several leaders of Quack has said? 

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42 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Indeed. I think it's all becoming clear. When Sphinx said that "Swamp" was going to attack, he was just dreaming big. Because so far, the only member of Swamp who had thinks that Swamp was really going to hit Quack was, well, Sphynx.  Here's something that Ronny told me an hour ago. I had been thinking of holding on to it to make sure he was ok with me sharing it but at this point, well, I think we may finally be getting to the one and only source of this Swamp "attack" on Quack. It wasn't an aggressive attack treaty, it was only an idea to counter Quack's growth, which is pretty ambiguous. Tyrion had already said he'd worked on a deal with Rose, which may have happened because Grumpy wouldn't join unless Rose was a part of this counter plan...

**

This is the direct quote I got from one of my fellow HM leaders when i learned about you guys [he means Swamp, as I'm in it] wanting to hit Quack. 

Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea.

Side note about 5 mins later I said this.

"i will say that i dont trust TCW to not leak this early

[1:03 PM]

which is my concern about fighting with TCW"

I hate being right.

**

Gotta say, this sounds about right...

This quote literally underlines a lot of the things we've been saying?

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51 minutes ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Who needs intelligence when our attackers had apparently already assumed there would be a dogpile waiting on them when they attacked, but instead of delaying attacking and attempting some FA to reduce the size of the aforementioned dogpile, they decided Leeroy Jenkins was a better role model to follow and just attacked anyway.

🤷‍♂️

I rescind my previous congratulations on reading through all the threads.

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17 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

So... tCW, contrary to the claimed, was involved in the planning.

Ergo, Sphinx was a part of it, and therefore, the content of his logs are, in spite of what was claimed, legitimate.

I love being right.

 

It definitely looks like Sphynx was involved in -something-. But I'm wondering if his idea of what was going to happen and others was different. Because you'll see in that log from an HM leader that all that was mentioned is that a group was being formed to -counter- Quack. That is pretty ambiguous. That could just mean, say, a defensive treaty, which is something that Tyrion fully admitted to doing with Rose and, presumably, Grumpy afterwards. What might have been happening in that log was simply the first step- someone (Sphynx?) putting out feelers to see if a defensive treaty could be established. Perhaps Sphynx dreamed that it would also be an -offensive- treaty, but it seems that Sphynx is the only Swamp member who felt that way so far. Tyrion says he never heard of such a thing, same thing with the high level player I talked to in TFP about it. Clearly, it would be nice to find out the source of this HM leader and see if he could elaborate on his source. I've asked Ronny about this, we'll see if he gets back to me/us on that. 

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4 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

It definitely looks like Sphynx was involved in -something-. But I'm wondering if his idea of what was going to happen and others was different. Because you'll see in that log from an HM leader that all that was mentioned is that a group was being formed to -counter- Quack. That is pretty ambiguous. That could just mean, say, a defensive treaty, which is something that Tyrion fully admitted to doing with Rose and, presumably, Grumpy afterwards. What might have been happening in that log was simply the first step- someone (Sphynx?) putting out feelers to see if a defensive treaty could be established. Perhaps Sphynx dreamed that it would also be an -offensive- treaty, but it seems that Sphynx is the only Swamp member who felt that way so far. Tyrion says he never heard of such a thing, same thing with the high level player I talked to in TFP about it. Clearly, it would be nice to find out the source of this HM leader and see if he could elaborate on his source. I've asked Ronny about this, we'll see if he gets back to me/us on that. 

As I explained to you in the other thread, setting up a defensive network to then leverage for an offensive is a basic 101. The infrastructure is there. The comm links are there. It's just a trivial step to go from one to the other.

The denial, to me, means nothing when they also said that, at most, it was tCW's own doing. It's evident that that's not the case.

 
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11 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

As I explained to you in the other thread, setting up a defensive network to then leverage for an offensive is a basic 101. The infrastructure is there. The comm links are there. It's just a trivial step to go from one to the other.

The denial, to me, means nothing when they also said that, at most, it was tCW's own doing. It's evident that that's not the case.

Alright, I can agree that it's relatively straightforward to go from a defensive network to an offensive one. That being said, if we could just look at the optics here. So clearly, all of these groups felt that Quack was getting too big to deal with alone. We can all argue about whether that's true, but everyone on the non Quack side is essentially agreeing that this was the main reason, if not the sole reason, for setting up this defensive network. 

 

So, there are 2 approaches one can take with this information:

1- Quack Attack, which is what happened.  

2- Talk to the parties involved instead of attacking. Try to get some verification on Sphynx' claim that an attack was imminent.

 

We all know the results of the first approach. As to the second, we may never know. But I and others certainly have a theory on it- mainly that if an attack happened, it would have been smaller and in that one, you guys would have had the moral high ground. 

 

Now, we have another choice- how to proceed. Continue the Quack Attack until Shiho (or was that Adrienne?) gets her record at the very least. Pray that she will achieve it soon. Or start peace talks. At the very least right after Shiho achieves her record. Anyway, whoever it was that said that about a record, how much longer until you would achieve it :-p?

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23 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

It definitely looks like Sphynx was involved in -something-. But I'm wondering if his idea of what was going to happen and others was different. Because you'll see in that log from an HM leader that all that was mentioned is that a group was being formed to -counter- Quack. That is pretty ambiguous. That could just mean, say, a defensive treaty, which is something that Tyrion fully admitted to doing with Rose and, presumably, Grumpy afterwards. What might have been happening in that log was simply the first step- someone (Sphynx?) putting out feelers to see if a defensive treaty could be established. Perhaps Sphynx dreamed that it would also be an -offensive- treaty, but it seems that Sphynx is the only Swamp member who felt that way so far. Tyrion says he never heard of such a thing, same thing with the high level player I talked to in TFP about it. Clearly, it would be nice to find out the source of this HM leader and see if he could elaborate on his source. I've asked Ronny about this, we'll see if he gets back to me/us on that. 

read the quote again.

Quote

 

Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea.

Side note about 5 mins later I said this.

"i will say that i dont trust TCW to not leak this early

[1:03 PM]

which is my concern about fighting with TCW"

I hate being right.

 

 

It speaks of curbing quacks growth. The only way to do that is through war. It also speaks of not waiting for us to break up. 

Same thing on the "fighting" bit.

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5 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

The knowledge of the paperless came after the fact.

Rose and Swamp were also approached and assured prior to it, but it was for naught either way.

 

I can't speak for Rose, but being in Swamp, what I was told was that Swamp was asked to not intervene. Problem was, Swamp had just established this defensive treaty with TCW and Hedge to come to their defense if attacked. 

 

Anyway, we can't turn back the clock. The real question is, what should we do now?

2 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

read the quote again.

 

It speaks of curbing quacks growth. The only way to do that is through war. It also speaks of not waiting for us to break up. 

Same thing on the "fighting" bit.

 

Alright, fair enough. I hope I'm not the only one really wanting to know who Ronny's source was. Even if he doesn't want to reveal it, if he could just ask his source a few questions like whether he could rule out if his source was Sphinx and if he has a log of their conversation, would be nice...

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10 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Now, we have another choice- how to proceed. Continue the Quack Attack until Shiho (or was that Adrienne?) gets her record at the very least. Pray that she will achieve it soon. Or start peace talks. At the very least right after Shiho achieves her record. Anyway, whoever it was that said that about a record, how much longer until you would achieve it :-p?

I have 45 more wars I need to lose. Worry not though! I am in 9 wars at the moment and therefore progressing well towards achieving it ;) 

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Just now, Adrienne said:

I have 45 more wars I need to lose. Worry not though! I am in 9 wars at the moment and therefore progressing well towards achieving it ;) 

Lol :-p. Alright well, looks like this is the only timeline for peace talks being initiated for now, so I'll take it :-p. 

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20 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So what I am reading here is that you still cant admit your sphere is the strongest in the game?

Cool Cool Cool.

 

20 hours ago, James II said:

It's an objective fact we were not....Swamp was/is.

So what you have here is SRD asking if you can agree that Quack is the strongest sphere in the game. Instead of agreeing to it, you sidestep him and point to the fact that "muh 5 more c10s in Swamp", therefore agreeing to his statement regardless. 

 

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17 hours ago, Prefonteen said:

read the quote again.

 

It speaks of curbing quacks growth. The only way to do that is through war. It also speaks of not waiting for us to break up. 

Same thing on the "fighting" bit.

 

 

Curbing is not Synonymous with countering. 

 

Countering is to do a similar action to match what someone else has done. 

Curbing is to take action against someone  to stop them from doing something. 

 

All this proves is that Swamps growth was simply to attempt to match Quack's growth, as we have stated many times. 

 

I love when, while attempting to prove you wrong, they prove you right. 

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36 minutes ago, Grave said:

Curbing is not Synonymous with countering. 

 

Countering is to do a similar action to match what someone else has done. 

Curbing is to take action against someone  to stop them from doing something. 

 

All this proves is that Swamps growth was simply to attempt to match Quack's growth, as we have stated many times. 

 

I love when, while attempting to prove you wrong, they prove you right. 

 

20 hours ago, Phoenyx said:

"i will say that i dont trust TCW to not leak this early

[1:03 PM]

which is my concern about fighting with TCW"

I hate being right.

 

Try again?

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21 minutes ago, Adrienne said:

 

 

Try again?

 

The issue here is that SRD may have misinterpreted what his fellow HM leader was telling him. It's best to look at the HM leader's words- they are one step closer to the actual source of the information:

**Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea.**

 

It's also possible that SRD always meant fight in a retaliatory fashion as opposed to a first strike fashion.

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39 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Ah yes. Another "We didn't mean it like that!!?!" to throw on the pile. 

 

Carry on

 

There are multiple parties here and I'm sure you've heard of the broken telephone effect. I'm still not sure whether SRD believed that some Swamp leader really did want to initiate a first strike or whether SRD only believed that Swamp wanted to attack in a retaliatory fashion. But he also made it clear that he never spoke to Swamp about this at all. Instead, he was told about it via this other HM leader. In fact, that quoted conversation may well have been the only information on this that SRD ever got, in which case I think it would be best if pay less attention to what SRD thought and a lot more on what the HM leader wrote, as he may have actually talked to someone in Swamp instead of hearing about it second hand. 

 

This HM leader said nothing about an attack, instead only mentioning the idea to "counter Quack's growth". That's a much more ambiguous statement as far as I'm concerned. Now, naturally, for the purposes of getting to the bottom of this, it would be great if we could know who this other HM leader was or at least know who in Swamp he allegedly talked to. Failing that though, we are left with speculation. 

 

On another note, have you released all the logs you were threatening to release yet? Far from feeling threatened by them, everyone responding here seemed to want to see them. But then you seemed to change your mind. Did you change your mind on releasing them? 

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3 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

There are multiple parties here and I'm sure you've heard of the broken telephone effect. I'm still not sure whether SRD believed that some Swamp leader really did want to initiate a first strike or whether SRD only believed that Swamp wanted to attack in a retaliatory fashion. But he also made it clear that he never spoke to Swamp about this at all. Instead, he was told about it via this other HM leader. In fact, that quoted conversation may well have been the only information on this that SRD ever got, in which case I think it would be best if pay less attention to what SRD thought and a lot more on what the HM leader wrote, as he may have actually talked to someone in Swamp instead of hearing about it second hand. 

 

This HM leader said nothing about an attack, instead only mentioning the idea to "counter Quack's growth". That's a much more ambiguous statement as far as I'm concerned. Now, naturally, for the purposes of getting to the bottom of this, it would be great if we could know who this other HM leader was or at least know who in Swamp he allegedly talked to. Failing that though, we are left with speculation. 

 

On another note, have you released all the logs you were threatening to release yet? Far from feeling threatened by them, everyone responding here seemed to want to see them. But then you seemed to change your mind. Did you change your mind on releasing them? 

Reread my post. I told tyrion to knock it off or continue the conversation after (publically) reviewing logs. He opted to engage in dm, so I stuck to exactly what I said I would do.

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1 minute ago, Prefonteen said:

Reread my post. I told tyrion to knock it off or continue the conversation after (publically) reviewing logs. He opted to engage in dm, so I stuck to exactly what I said I would do.

Which post?

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1 hour ago, Prefonteen said:

Ah yes. Another "We didn't mean it like that!!?!" to throw on the pile. 

 

Carry on

Ah yes, another  "we'll continue to twist your words even after being proven wrong. " 

You are preaching to the choir, everyone sees right through your BS.

 

2 hours ago, Adrienne said:

 

 

Try again?

Of course, because your unwarranted aggression has proven that that we should've just been open about us protecting eachother from getting rolled out of the game by Quack all along. /end sarcasm 

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