We are here for the whales - t$ DoW

[Charles Bolivar]

1 hour ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Yes, which shows at least aggressive intentions from parties purporting to have only defensive intentions, and on top of that a de-facto bloc agreement from way long ago.

A "mutual defense against quack" treaty is still a mutual defense treaty, especially when there's no other possibilities to defend against. That constitutes an alliance, straight up. Unless of course someone's willing to unironically offer the argument that said secret treaty (well established and admitted to by all involved) somehow didn't include an implied NAP component, the coalition was already established.

Yes, we should have let tS and TKR roll us one by one instead 👍

Clearly the better option.

[Sisyphus]

7 minutes ago, Charles Bolivar said:

Yes, we should have let tS and TKR roll us one by one instead 👍

Clearly the better option.

Show us the logs.

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Yes...

Hard to know what you're responding to when you don't actually quote anything I've said.

43 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

Show us the logs.

What logs?

[Adrienne]

1 hour ago, Phoenyx said:

What logs?

Exactly.

[HeroofTime55]

15 hours ago, Phoenyx said:

words

The argument that the attack plan was abandoned is silly.  The thing is, what Ronny said was a slip up.  He wasn't supposed to say there ever was a plan.  Because that was the going lie.  He simply couldn't get his lies in order, and then came up with a novel story about how "there was a plan, and I was totally willing to participate if Rose was in, but it didn't materialize."  And yet here we are, with Rose instantly countering.  Seems like it didn't fizzle.  Seems like Ronny should have talked to Rose and Swamp before trying to spin a story that conflicts with the nonsense they were spewing.  All in all, quite the hilarious slip up, backpedaling and all.

[Phoenyx]

31 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

The argument that the attack plan was abandoned is silly.  The thing is, what Ronny said was a slip up.  He wasn't supposed to say there ever was a plan.  Because that was the going lie.  He simply couldn't get his lies in order, and then came up with a novel story about how "there was a plan, and I was totally willing to participate if Rose was in, but it didn't materialize."  And yet here we are, with Rose instantly countering.  Seems like it didn't fizzle.  Seems like Ronny should have talked to Rose and Swamp before trying to spin a story that conflicts with the nonsense they were spewing.  All in all, quite the hilarious slip up, backpedaling and all.

 

I'm not even sure there ever -was- an attack plan. It may have been a misinterpretation on Ronny's part. Evidence that this was the case can be found in the log from the TM leader who was closer to the source of the information, the TM leader that Ronny mentioned. Unfortunately, it looks like Ronny may be done talking about this issue, so perhaps we'll never know. 

 

I think it's sad that so many people believe that lies -must- have happened. I've found that life works much better when you tend to assume that people might actually be telling the truth. As to the idea that Rose instantly countered, I believe even -your- side agrees that the counter was not instant, but actually took a few hours. Ronny elaborated in the same post where his famous quote was mined. To whit:

 

On 11/2/2020 at 9:56 AM, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

From what I understand Rose didn't jump on the bandwagon till a few hours before you guys attacked on Friday.  If we were all on board from the get go, we wouldn't have spend the 2 hours before you attacked frantically trying to decide how we wanted to handle you guys.   If we had all actually been working together, we would have had target lists together, and hit you first.

Also you talk about us hitting TCW, well like you have been justifying your war, we knew they were coming after us (which Sphinx later confirmed) so we hit them, and swamp also had beef with TCW so they also wanted to join, and we are not going to say no to that.

So TLDR, I would love to see all these logs, because your version of what is happening is not the same as what I have seen, and I have talked to some other alliance leaders, and they also dont know what you have been talking about.

 

Reading a little after what Ronny posted, Tyrion posted the following:

On 11/2/2020 at 11:19 AM, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

2 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

The argument that the attack plan was abandoned is silly.  The thing is, what Ronny said was a slip up.  He wasn't supposed to say there ever was a plan.  Because that was the going lie.  He simply couldn't get his lies in order, and then came up with a novel story about how "there was a plan, and I was totally willing to participate if Rose was in, but it didn't materialize."  And yet here we are, with Rose instantly countering.  Seems like it didn't fizzle.  Seems like Ronny should have talked to Rose and Swamp before trying to spin a story that conflicts with the nonsense they were spewing.  All in all, quite the hilarious slip up, backpedaling and all.

My slip up was giving you guys the truth, and actually expecting to be treated the same.  So I guess I will stop.

Good luck!

[Phoenyx]

Sigh -.- I tried.

 

[HeroofTime55]

2 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

My slip up was giving you guys the truth, and actually expecting to be treated the same.  So I guess I will stop.

Good luck!

What do you mean "treated the same?"  We literally entered this war because you plotted a dogpile against us, which you admitted, and which you confirm here again is the truth of the matter.  I don't understand the problem.  This is the war you wanted, we just pushed the schedule a bit forward.  Be happy about it, jeez.

[Thrawn]

7 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

The argument that the attack plan was abandoned is silly.  The thing is, what Ronny said was a slip up.  He wasn't supposed to say there ever was a plan.  Because that was the going lie.  He simply couldn't get his lies in order, and then came up with a novel story about how "there was a plan, and I was totally willing to participate if Rose was in, but it didn't materialize."  And yet here we are, with Rose instantly countering.  Seems like it didn't fizzle.  Seems like Ronny should have talked to Rose and Swamp before trying to spin a story that conflicts with the nonsense they were spewing.  All in all, quite the hilarious slip up, backpedaling and all.

 

2 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

What do you mean "treated the same?"  We literally entered this war because you plotted a dogpile against us, which you admitted, and which you confirm here again is the truth of the matter.  I don't understand the problem.  This is the war you wanted, we just pushed the schedule a bit forward.  Be happy about it, jeez.

My guy you can't add in your own narrative and then call it truth of the matter. As soon as you make claims like that its no longer the truth.

[Prefonteen]

5 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

My slip up was giving you guys the truth, and actually expecting to be treated the same.  So I guess I will stop.

Good luck!

@HeroofTime55 Let's be fair to Ronny. He did give the truth there, and he has also been truthful in private. The issue is that others in his coalition are outright denying that truth.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Prefonteen

[Phoenyx]

7 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

What do you mean "treated the same?"  We literally entered this war because you plotted a dogpile against us, which you admitted, and which you confirm here again is the truth of the matter.  I don't understand the problem.  This is the war you wanted, we just pushed the schedule a bit forward.  Be happy about it, jeez.

From his log with his fellow HM leader, all the HM leader said was: "Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea."

 

This concords with Tyrion's admission that Swamp was planning a -defensive- coalition should Quack attack. It appears Ronny may have misinterpreted this to mean that an offensive Coalition was being planned, but I'm not even sure of that- he may have meant a retaliatory attack, not a first strike attack. Regardless, based on Tyrion's words as well as what I have heard from a TFP official in Swamp, that's the only plan that Swamp was planning. It looks like Sphinx also misinterpreted things and then I'm guessing he decided to add an aproximate date as to when this alleged first strike attack was going to happen.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Shiho Nishizumi]

Or... rather much simpler and straightforward, people are lying because they tangibly stand to gain from lying, and this behavior is demonstrable by, for starters, the direct contradictions, even at the sphere level.

Much of what you've elaborated is simply rehashing the same points over and over, in spite of said points having already been addressed at length. You only directly set back growth by war. They explicitly stated that it'd be a matter of warring. Nobody who's planning an offensive is planning for a "retaliatory attack". Blitzing the frick out of your target is the best way to put it down. And as someone who actually has personally known Sphinx for years now, he'd only go and state things in such manner either if he knew he had something going on, or if he was about to get shafted. It wasn't the latter, so that only leaves one option.

Those situations you're arguing about are only conceivable by people who, quite frankly, lack the practical experience on how things work. I'd not expect you to know how they work given your age. I'd expect you to perhaps realize that repeating the same points over and over again, in spite of being explained to in depth on the flaws/problems found within them, is starting to go from innocently clueless to potentially insincere. 

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Or... rather much simpler and straightforward, people are lying because they tangibly stand to gain from lying, and this behavior is demonstrable by, for starters, the direct contradictions, even at the sphere level.

Much of what you've elaborated is simply rehashing the same points over and over, in spite of said points having already been addressed at length. You only directly set back growth by war. They explicitly stated that it'd be a matter of warring. Nobody who's planning an offensive is planning for a "retaliatory attack". Blitzing the frick out of your target is the best way to put it down. And as someone who actually has personally known Sphinx for years now, he'd only go and state things in such manner either if he knew he had something going on, or if he was about to get shafted. It wasn't the latter, so that only leaves one option.

Those situations you're arguing about are only conceivable by people who, quite frankly, lack the practical experience on how things work. I'd not expect you to know how they work given your age. I'd expect you to perhaps realize that repeating the same points over and over again, in spite of being explained to in depth on the flaws/problems found within them, is starting to go from innocently clueless to potentially insincere. 

 

I think it'd be great if we could talk to Sphinx now, but it seems that he's left the game for a while. Failing that, our only good source of information is Ronny. But it looks like he may have gotten tired of all of this too. It is my hope that he says a bit more though- he seems to be the only one that your side thinks may be being honest and I really don't think that his version of events concords with yours. The problem is he hasn't clarified certain things.

 

Anyway, I strongly disagree with your claim that these leaders stand to gain from lying. Leaders who lie generally pay a price for doing so in the long run, especially since it's -so- easy to vote with your feet here. if we were to compare these in game Alliances to real world nations, packing up and going to another Alliance is pretty straightforward- it can be a -lot- harder if you are living in, say, North Korea and even elsewhere it's still much much harder. 

 

Anyway, I think I proved that I'm willing to dig for the truth regardless of where it leads after I kept on going even after I was removed from TFP, my original Swamp Alliance. It's why I still want to know both the identity of Ronny's source and if they could elaborate on what they meant in that log with Ronny. Or Sphinx themselves to state who they talked to and possibly logs of the conversations that got them to believe that TcW, Hedge and Swamp really were going to initiate a first strike against Quack. But failing that, and based on the information I have, I've come to the conclusion that Sphinx was mistaken.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Shiho Nishizumi]

You'd be surprised by how short sighted people can be. And while you're right that people can just up and leave, you're overestimating the interest normal members have in these sorts of things. Your case is the exception, not the norm.

 

[Phoenyx]

40 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

You'd be surprised by how short sighted people can be. And while you're right that people can just up and leave, you're overestimating the interest normal members have in these sorts of things. Your case is the exception, not the norm.

 

Could we talk via messages? I've begun to feel that the time to resolve this war is going to need a bit more dialogue that is at least initiated privately- with any interesting finds perhaps making their way to the public realm once there is something substantive to say. 

[Leopold von Habsburg]

2 hours ago, Phoenyx said:

Could we talk via messages? I've begun to feel that the time to resolve this war is going to need a bit more dialogue that is at least initiated privately- with any interesting finds perhaps making their way to the public realm once there is something substantive to say. 

Haven't you straight up leaked 2 peoples messages with you and then embellished your conversation with Tyrion where he promptly came in to shut you down there.

No offense but why would anyone want to talk with you in DM's when you have stated that even if they don't want you to share them publically you will still post them if you think they need to be seen.

[Phoenyx]

13 minutes ago, Leopold von Habsburg said:

Haven't you straight up leaked 2 peoples messages with you and then embellished your conversation with Tyrion where he promptly came in to shut you down there.

No offense but why would anyone want to talk with you in DM's when you have stated that even if they don't want you to share them publically you will still post them if you think they need to be seen.

The whole -point- of sending messages to them was to try to get people into the conversation that seemed to have tuned out. I apologize for not making my intentions more clear with people but I think I made it abundantly clear in my message with Shiho that the goal was to -start- private and then go public once there was something substantive to say.

 

As to the notion that I embellished my conversation with Tyrion, he clearly -thought- I did, but that was a misunderstanding on his part. I never said I had had a long conversation with him, only that I had conversed with him. 

 

Anyway, I suppose people are content the way things are, so never mind, just carry on as you were.

[mksinky]

14 hours ago, Phoenyx said:

Sigh -.- I tried.

 

You did, your success... well, not so sure about that.

[Syl]

11 minutes ago, legoboyvdlp said:

You did, your success... well, not so sure about that.

Be nice he tried😆

Edited November 14, 2020 by Syl

[Phoenyx]

41 minutes ago, legoboyvdlp said:

You did, your success... well, not so sure about that.

Well, I'm happy you at least agree I tried.

[Sir Scarfalot]

3 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

Well, I'm happy you at least agree I tried.

Perhaps, but what were/are you actually expecting to accomplish?

[Phoenyx]

1 minute ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Perhaps, but what were/are you actually expecting to accomplish?

World peace ofcourse :-p. 

[Kamala Khan]

19 hours ago, Phoenyx said:

I believe even -your- side agrees that the counter was not instant, but actually took a few hours.

If by “a few hours” you mean “literally 5 minutes” then sure.

[Phoenyx]

5 minutes ago, MCMaster-095 said:

If by “a few hours” you mean “literally 5 minutes” then sure.

I heard 3 hours myself. Anyway, it's basically everyone's word but Sphinx, and Sphinx isn't here to question, so yeah. The closest you guys have to someone who said that there was an attack planned against Quack who is still around may be Ronny, and even he believed that this plan died long before the war happened. When you factor in the fact that he didn't even talk to Swamp himself, but instead was -told- that there had been communication with Swamp by another HM leader, and when you look at that conversation log and see that it is even more ambiguous than Ronny's statements, well, perhaps time to re evaluate what you guys think you know? Up to you guys ofcourse.