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6 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

No one doubts that you knew we were going to war.  Y'all already had time to get out in front of the sphinx leaks as everyone already knew by the time we got around to talking about them in our back-channels.  The question is mostly surrounding the frameworks for coordination between spheres.  We've received a steady pile of evidence regarding the cooperation that had existed and was ongoing in the run-up to the preempt.  Each piece of evidence may be circumstantial by itself but together it paints a pretty clear story that best explains the timing of the blitz.

Rose wants to make it seem like they decided 2 hours beforehand, but the evidence just doesn't support that.  Swamp also wants to imply that there was no coordination, and that they're guiltless in any planning.  Your post makes it seem like the coordination was definitely there between multiple spheres.  It also makes you wonder why that sort of coordination was happening that far in advance if there were no serious plans to follow-up on the Sphinx leaks.

Are y'all not sharing the evidence because log dumping isn't cool or is there another reason? Cus what is seems like is y'all are just screaming LIAR! at the top of your lungs, but relying on what seems to be pretty shaky evidence (the posted logs). I think the main synopsis I've pulled from this shit show of a thread is that, although literally every sphere ever has plans and vocalizes those plans at some point to a potential partner, any conversations had in our sphere are somehow much more nefarious. On top of that, I can clearly see from Ronny and Tyrion that if we were planning something this big, frick man, we were doing so incredibly incompetently, which I'm inclined to think wouldn't be the case (we do have a few competent people on our side). So while I see our stories not lining up as evidence of the fact that conversations were had, but no concrete plan was hatched, and seemingly at no time were all of the parties even in the room together, you all see it as "muddying the waters."

 

This is all to say, spheres acknowledge the risk they take when they discuss potential wars with other spheres and logs exposing such planning is a valid CB, but there is absolutely no fricking need for 22 pages to get to that point, especially when everyone is just screaming the same talking points ad nauseum. 

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7 hours ago, Cooper_ said:

No one doubts that you knew we were going to war.  Y'all already had time to get out in front of the sphinx leaks as everyone already knew by the time we got around to talking about them in our back-channels.  The question is mostly surrounding the frameworks for coordination between spheres.  We've received a steady pile of evidence regarding the cooperation that had existed and was ongoing in the run-up to the preempt.  Each piece of evidence may be circumstantial by itself but together it paints a pretty clear story that best explains the timing of the blitz.

Rose wants to make it seem like they decided 2 hours beforehand, but the evidence just doesn't support that.  Swamp also wants to imply that there was no coordination, and that they're guiltless in any planning.  Your post makes it seem like the coordination was definitely there between multiple spheres.  It also makes you wonder why that sort of coordination was happening that far in advance if there were no serious plans to follow-up on the Sphinx leaks.

Why not show all this evidence? I have asked a few times now, I would personally love to see it.  I may even actually agree with your stance. 

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1 hour ago, Hodor said:

Are y'all not sharing the evidence because log dumping isn't cool or is there another reason? Cus what is seems like is y'all are just screaming LIAR! at the top of your lungs, but relying on what seems to be pretty shaky evidence (the posted logs). I think the main synopsis I've pulled from this shit show of a thread is that, although literally every sphere ever has plans and vocalizes those plans at some point to a potential partner, any conversations had in our sphere are somehow much more nefarious. On top of that, I can clearly see from Ronny and Tyrion that if we were planning something this big, frick man, we were doing so incredibly incompetently, which I'm inclined to think wouldn't be the case (we do have a few competent people on our side). So while I see our stories not lining up as evidence of the fact that conversations were had, but no concrete plan was hatched, and seemingly at no time were all of the parties even in the room together, you all see it as "muddying the waters."

Mostly the first point, yes.  As a matter of principle, I don't like to log dump.  I can give a brief accounting to what that evidence is:

- The instant and well-planned counter blitz

- Peripheries confirming that these plans weren't new and were told to plan for a November war

- A secret MDP between Swamp and Rose 

- The coordination between HM and Swamp that never ended and manifested in an effective secret treaty

- SRD's past statements admitting to a number of contacts that is inconsistent with Tyrion's and many others' accounts including Rose's story of deciding 2 hours before.

- The two sets of Sphinx logs

- The knowledge of the Sphinx logs instantly getting spread to all the spheres once one was made aware of them.

 

I'm more than willing to admit that each part on it's own (save the logs) is circumstantial, but taken together it depicts a pattern of coordination that is much harder to deny.

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2 hours ago, Hodor said:

This is all to say, spheres acknowledge the risk they take when they discuss potential wars with other spheres and logs exposing such planning is a valid CB, but there is absolutely no fricking need for 22 pages to get to that point, especially when everyone is just screaming the same talking points ad nauseum. 

Except they didn't own up to the risk, nor is the CB being taken as legitimate. So it seems like another 22 pages are in order.

If I'm to be honest, the amount of scrutiny pertaining to it is as hilarious as it is insane, given what Cooper has listed, given that wars have been justified, waged, and accepted for far less, given the transparent convenience (for your group) in discrediting Sphinx as a legitimate source, etc. And given that the response to such 'shaky logs' has been a combination of people throwing each other under the bus, unsavory comparisons, the aforementioned rather baseless scrutiny, empty rhetoric, and when all else failed, ultimately silence; yes, that tells me that the logs aren't shaky.

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Disclaimer: I am not gov anymore.

4 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

Mostly the first point, yes.  As a matter of principle, I don't like to log dump. I can give a brief accounting to what that evidence is:

- The instant and well-planned counter blitz

- Peripheries confirming that these plans weren't new and were told to plan for a November war

- A secret MDP between Swamp and Rose 

- The coordination between HM and Swamp that never ended and manifested in an effective secret treaty

- SRD's past statements admitting to a number of contacts that is inconsistent with Tyrion's and many others' accounts including Rose's story of deciding 2 hours before.

- The two sets of Sphinx logs

- The knowledge of the Sphinx logs instantly getting spread to all the spheres once one was made aware of them.

I'm more than willing to admit that each part on it's own (save the logs) is circumstantial, but taken together it depicts a pattern of coordination that is much harder to deny.

I'm glad you acknowledge this, because I am not entirely convinced that lots of circumstantial or shaky evidence combines to make a strong definite ruling. I also think enough doubt has been cast upon the bolded ones in my own post. That's really the key thing, there is no doubt in my mind conversations were had to plan a reaction to Quack aggression, likely some coalition was floated to attack Quack, but framing this as some uber nefarious plot to make Quack the next IQ is super unfounded and to me seems disingenuous based on the absurd strength of the reaction.

17 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Except they didn't own up to the risk, nor is the CB being taken as legitimate. So it seems like another 22 pages are in order.

If I'm to be honest, the amount of scrutiny pertaining to it is as hilarious as it is insane, given what Cooper has listed, given that wars have been justified, waged, and accepted for far less, given the transparent convenience (for your group) in discrediting Sphinx as a legitimate source, etc. And given that the response to such 'shaky logs' has been a combination of people throwing each other under the bus, unsavory comparisons, the aforementioned rather baseless scrutiny, empty rhetoric, and when all else failed, ultimately silence; yes, that tells me that the logs aren't shaky.

Didn't see this sorry.

Bold part is my entire argument lol. What I've seen in the most recent pages is not anyone trying to question the justification, but the facts the support the justification based on their personal experience which is what I was speaking to.

Anyone who needs a CB in this day and age needs to grow up.

 

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24 minutes ago, Hodor said:

Anyone who needs a CB in this day and age needs to grow up.

Ah yes, who wants political intrigue anyway?

Have we found ourselves on the flipside of Politics & War and traveled all the way to Politics & War now?

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

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18 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

Ah yes, who wants political intrigue anyway?

Have we found ourselves on the flipside of Politics & War and traveled all the way to Politics & War now?

I love some intrigue, but we're really bad at it in this game... our version of intrigue is high school gossip culminating in someone being dragged around by their hair in the cafeteria.

Also a CB isn't needed, but it's nice if you've got a juicy one, but sometimes you just wanna drag Becky around the cafeteria by her hair because you feel like it.

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9 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I love some intrigue, but we're really bad at it in this game... our version of intrigue is high school gossip culminating in someone being dragged around by their hair in the cafeteria.

Also a CB isn't needed, but it's nice if you've got a juicy one, but sometimes you just wanna drag Becky around the cafeteria by her hair because you feel like it.

I agree for the most part but I would like to emphasize that it doesn't mean we should just stop trying. 

At the end of the day it boils down to philosophical differences, I guess. 

And I don't even disparage the idea of noCB wars - especially if alliance themes match up with it or they're played off/presented in an interesting way but even those can underpin (or be underpinned by) political intrigue. 

Anyway, my point is that there is a point to CBs. 

 

The fact we're even touching on this here is kind of an indicator on how blurred the lines are getting between the game and the meta. 😛

Edited by Sisyphus

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58 minutes ago, Hodor said:

Didn't see this sorry.

Bold part is my entire argument lol. What I've seen in the most recent pages is not anyone trying to question the justification, but the facts the support the justification based on their personal experience which is what I was speaking to.

Anyone who needs a CB in this day and age needs to grow up.

It was realized that it wasn't possible to go up the staircase by skipping every other step.

And considering that you yourself said that you'd have taken to justifying *their* CB if you were our FA head; sorry Hodor, but I can't really quite take it at face value.

 
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1 minute ago, Sisyphus said:

I agree for the most part but I would like to emphasize that it doesn't mean we should just stop trying. 

At the end of the day it boils down to philosophical differences, I guess. 

And I don't even disparage the idea of noCB wars - especially if alliance themes match up with it or they're played off/presented in an interesting way but even those can underpin (or be underpinned by) political intrigue. 

Anyway, my point is that there is a point to CBs. 

 

The fact we're even touching on this here is kind of an indicator on how blurred the lines are getting between the game and the meta. 😛

I think we agree, I just worded my disparagement for the "y no CB?!?!" crowd a little harshly.

1 minute ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

And considering that you yourself said that you'd have taken to justifying *their* CB if you were our FA head; sorry Hodor, but I can't really quite take it at face value.

tbh, you lost me here

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4 hours ago, Hodor said:

Are y'all not sharing the evidence because log dumping isn't cool or is there another reason? Cus what is seems like is y'all are just screaming LIAR! at the top of your lungs, but relying on what seems to be pretty shaky evidence (the posted logs). I think the main synopsis I've pulled from this shit show of a thread is that, although literally every sphere ever has plans and vocalizes those plans at some point to a potential partner, any conversations had in our sphere are somehow much more nefarious. On top of that, I can clearly see from Ronny and Tyrion that if we were planning something this big, frick man, we were doing so incredibly incompetently, which I'm inclined to think wouldn't be the case (we do have a few competent people on our side). So while I see our stories not lining up as evidence of the fact that conversations were had, but no concrete plan was hatched, and seemingly at no time were all of the parties even in the room together, you all see it as "muddying the waters."

 

This is all to say, spheres acknowledge the risk they take when they discuss potential wars with other spheres and logs exposing such planning is a valid CB, but there is absolutely no fricking need for 22 pages to get to that point, especially when everyone is just screaming the same talking points ad nauseum. 

 

1 hour ago, Hodor said:

Disclaimer: I am not gov anymore.

I'm glad you acknowledge this, because I am not entirely convinced that lots of circumstantial or shaky evidence combines to make a strong definite ruling. I also think enough doubt has been cast upon the bolded ones in my own post. That's really the key thing, there is no doubt in my mind conversations were had to plan a reaction to Quack aggression, likely some coalition was floated to attack Quack, but framing this as some uber nefarious plot to make Quack the next IQ is super unfounded and to me seems disingenuous based on the absurd strength of the reaction.

Didn't see this sorry.

Bold part is my entire argument lol. What I've seen in the most recent pages is not anyone trying to question the justification, but the facts the support the justification based on their personal experience which is what I was speaking to.

Anyone who needs a CB in this day and age needs to grow up.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I love some intrigue, but we're really bad at it in this game... our version of intrigue is high school gossip culminating in someone being dragged around by their hair in the cafeteria.

Also a CB isn't needed, but it's nice if you've got a juicy one, but sometimes you just wanna drag Becky around the cafeteria by her hair because you feel like it.

 

14 minutes ago, Hodor said:

I think we agree, I just worded my disparagement for the "y no CB?!?!" crowd a little harshly.

 

You know pretty well that the sphinx log + tarroc/boyce (ex-FA gov and leader) corrobations are plenty to act on. The various admissions and/or badly aligned stories have since confirmed that we madet he right call. Various gov members have since gone on to state that frankly, all this has been inspired by a fear for/concern over our *growth* or *hegemonic potential* rather than our current size.

Which is cool. Just try not to lose your oars in the hegemony crap yall have been peddling.

 

Edited by Prefonteen

 

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4 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

You know pretty well that the sphinx log + tarroc/boyce (ex-FA gov and leader) corrobations are plenty to act on. The various admissions and/or badly aligned stories have since confirmed that we madet he right call. Various gov members have since gone on to state that frankly, all this has been inspired by a fear for/concern over our *growth* or *hegemonic potential* rather than our current size.

Which is cool. Just try not to lose your oars in the hegemony crap yall have been peddling.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hodor said:

This is all to say, spheres acknowledge the risk they take when they discuss potential wars with other spheres and logs exposing such planning is a valid CB, but there is absolutely no fricking need for 22 pages to get to that point, especially when everyone is just screaming the same talking points ad nauseum. 

 

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1 minute ago, Hodor said:

 

 

Not our fault your people went on a hurr durr hegemony rampage, quite partisanly overscrutinized what was a straightforward CB, then did a bunch of oopsie doopsie lies which others then contradicted, and have finally landed back at mUh Cb, Hodor.

 

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6 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Not our fault your people went on a hurr durr hegemony rampage, quite partisanly overscrutinized what was a straightforward CB, then did a bunch of oopsie doopsie lies which others then contradicted, and have finally landed back at mUh Cb, Hodor.

 

You can't fix yourself by breaking someone else | Picture Quotes

 

 

So by the same token, its not our fault that when 2 of the largest alliances in the game team up with all of their friends to make what is easily the largest alliance in the game for a solid 8 months, every other bloc will look at you as a potential threat.  I am still amazed that your entire bloc refuses to acknowledge this.

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3 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So by the same token, its not our fault that when 2 of the largest alliances in the game team up with all of their friends to make what is easily the largest alliance in the game for a solid 8 months, every other bloc will look at you as a potential threat.  I am still amazed that your entire bloc refuses to acknowledge this.

Friend ronny, would you like to go over the tiering stats of that period with me? We can do a month-by-month analysis together. It will end up making you look old and forgetful though. :(

You should really focus more on cleaning our color, and less on blaming me for the mistakes of people who ride your coattails friend.

Edited by Prefonteen
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Ooh, ooh, we can also revisit the fact that TI wanted to make a superbloc with us and we refused because we explicitly didn't want to create a hegemony!  I like this story, tell it again!

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28 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So by the same token, its not our fault that when 2 of the largest alliances in the game team up with all of their friends to make what is easily the largest alliance in the game for a solid 8 months, every other bloc will look at you as a potential threat.  I am still amazed that your entire bloc refuses to acknowledge this.

The Swamp-Rose MDP is and was the largest configuration in the game if we're basing it on possible threats.  

This framing doesn't even consider that Quack took no aggressive actions during the entire timespan and was entirely open and transparent to both Rose and Swamp about our friendly intent.  The only reason why HM wasn't included in that was a consistent pattern of showing hostility to us.  

I think we agree on the point that the context is clearly missing.

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6 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

The Swamp-Rose MDP is and was the largest configuration in the game if we're basing it on possible threats.  

This framing doesn't even consider that Quack took no aggressive actions during the entire timespan and was entirely open and transparent to both Rose and Swamp about our friendly intent.  The only reason why HM wasn't included in that was a consistent pattern of showing hostility to us.  

I think we agree on the point that the context is clearly missing.

You mention Swamp-Rose as if there was an actual MDP in place, there was/is not.  If Hedge had hit Rose or Swamp, the other would have stayed out.  Similarly, if Rose had hit Hedge or Swamp, the other would have stayed out.  These were not general MDP agreements.  The agreement in place was for a single purpose and that was to defend against Quack if Quack got aggressive.  Quack was literally about to dogpile HM and TCW, probably 3.6M score vs 1.5M score or whatever it was, so those fears weren't completely unfounded.  We've already gone back and forth with you saying you thought we were coming on the offensive and us saying we weren't, so it's dumb to keep arguing over that unless new facts come out.  But the point being, the only reason those agreements were in place was to defend against the exact scenario that played out.  There is not some overarching configuration that exists beyond the parties working together to defend against one deemed mutual threat.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

You mention Swamp-Rose as if there was an actual MDP in place, there was/is not.  If Hedge had hit Rose or Swamp, the other would have stayed out.  Similarly, if Rose had hit Hedge or Swamp, the other would have stayed out.  These were not general MDP agreements.  The agreement in place was for a single purpose and that was to defend against Quack if Quack got aggressive.  Quack was literally about to dogpile HM and TCW, probably 3.6M score vs 1.5M score or whatever it was, so those fears weren't completely unfounded.  We've already gone back and forth with you saying you thought we were coming on the offensive and us saying we weren't, so it's dumb to keep arguing over that unless new facts come out.  But the point being, the only reason those agreements were in place was to defend against the exact scenario that played out.  There is not some overarching configuration that exists beyond the parties working together to defend against one deemed mutual threat.

This is just another variant of the "we would have never attacked you if you hadn't preempted our plan to attack you" spin. 

It just doesn't add up at all. Swamp in particular has been specifically indicted in an attempt to pull HM into an aggressive plot against Quack. Maybe Rose got roped into things unaware/without the full picture but both HM and Swamp knew what the deal was: an aggressive attack on Quack.

Stop with your willfully obtuse attempts at saving face. 

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2 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

This is just another variant of the "we would have never attacked you if you hadn't preempted our plan to attack you". 

It just doesn't add up at all. Swamp in particular has been specifically indicted in an attempt to pull HM into an aggressive plot against Quack. Maybe Rose got roped into things unaware/without the full picture but both HM and Swamp knew what the deal was: an aggressive attack on Quack.

Stop with your willfully obtuse attempts at saving face. 

As I said "We've already gone back and forth with you saying you thought we were coming on the offensive and us saying we weren't, so it's dumb to keep arguing over that unless new facts come out. "

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

As I said "We've already gone back and forth with you saying you thought we were coming on the offensive and us saying we weren't, so it's dumb to keep arguing over that unless new facts come out. "

Yes, and your silence speaks volumes.  New facts have just come out about your secret treaty with Rose.  It's in real bad faith to just ignore legitimate concerns about conduct that y'all and your allies have decried in the past.  I do expect an answer to hypocrisy, and new information that directly contradicts your previous statements about there not being coordination between the spheres.

And I think the innocent ploy isn't fair either given how y'all's manipulations are what Rose is claiming as a CB despite the months upon months of trying to get Quack to hit Rose.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

As I said "We've already gone back and forth with you saying you thought we were coming on the offensive and us saying we weren't, so it's dumb to keep arguing over that unless new facts come out. "

Yeah but your vain attempts to double down on your innocence aren't something we're willing to entertain when we have evidence that indicates the opposite. 

So we can keep going in circles as long as you want to continue to maintain this farce of a charade you keep playing at. 

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

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12 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

Yes, and your silence speaks volumes.  New facts have just come out about your secret treaty with Rose.  It's in real bad faith to just ignore legitimate concerns about conduct that y'all and your allies have decried in the past.  I do expect an answer to hypocrisy, and new information that directly contradicts your previous statements about there not being coordination between the spheres.

And I think the innocent ploy isn't fair either given how y'all's manipulations are what Rose is claiming as a CB despite the months upon months of trying to get Quack to hit Rose.

I may have missed it.  What "new information that directly contradicts your previous statements about there not being coordination between the spheres." are you referring to?  

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