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We are here for the whales - t$ DoW


Prefonteen
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59 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

You spent months pretending to be friendly, and again: Ronny confirmed you approached him. Your wall of text falls on deaf ears. You sought a dogpile, you got it. The only cost is your credibility.

Edit: You know very well that we did not seek a war with you. We were dilligent in our communication even before we milled up, and reassured you over and over despite being well aware you might be preparing a dagger for our backs. I communicated as much directly to you.

"When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand"

I clarified that point.  also I did you the favor of giving you the truth as I see it, why not put up your logs?  You want to justify your CB off of a conversation had a month ago, lets see all these logs, since when i told you the same thing I posted here, you implied that I was lying to you.  Transparency goes both ways.

 

Edited by Sweeeeet Ronny D
a point so nice i posted it thrice.
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3 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I can tell you straight up what has been going on from Grumpy's point of view.  Swamp came to HM about a month ago, asking about hitting you guys, and as the leader of Grumpy, I said i would only be on board if Rose was also on board, and Rose said no, so Grumpy was out.

Thanks, been looking to update my signature.

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5 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

"When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand"

I clarified that point.  also I did you the favor of giving you the truth as I see it, why not put up your logs?  You want to justify your CB off of a conversation had a month ago, lets see all these logs, since when i told you the same thing I posted here, you implied that I was lying to you.  Transparency goes both ways.

"When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand"

I clarified that point.  also I did you the favor of giving you the truth as I see it, why not put up your logs?  You want to justify your CB off of a conversation had a month ago, lets see all these logs, since when i told you the same thing I posted here, you implied that I was lying to you.  Transparency goes both ways.

"When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand"

I clarified that point.  also I did you the favor of giving you the truth as I see it, why not put up your logs?  You want to justify your CB off of a conversation had a month ago, lets see all these logs, since when i told you the same thing I posted here, you implied that I was lying to you.  Transparency goes both ways.

You confirmed that you were in with the presented plan to hit us, provided that rose joined too. From there, the ball rolled.

Whether person A, B, C or D made the approach is entirely irrelevant. The intention was there. The plan was there. The actors were moving pieces, and a fringe aspect of it (sphinx) leaked. That tipped us off and we rolled. Your friends tried to wash their hands and pretend it never happened. Then you confirmed it did, along with your reasoning. Which is cool, no hard feelings- I understand GOB's position.

Swamp's (and Rose's and some of HM''s) however, not so much. 

Edited by Prefonteen

 

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3 minutes ago, Jeric said:

War stated after he resigned... 

It also started after he leaked.
I'm willing to pay the coin for him to change his name from Sphinx to Sieve.

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<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
<+Curufinwe> Can confirm

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5 minutes ago, Sval said:

It also started after he leaked.
I'm willing to pay the coin for him to change his name from Sphinx to Sieve.

Well you're gonna have to wait in line for when we're done with him.

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15 minutes ago, Benfro said:

So the response is for the rest of the whales in TCW to VM also? Because we are up to 7 other than Sphinx, at last count.

Last I checked, i'm not a whale. I have 26 cities. Even if I assumed for a second that c27+ is whale territory (which it isn't...) we have 5 "whales" in VM, one is Sphinx who is dealing with RL stuff right now, one has been VM for as long as I can remember, and the remaining are also dealing with RL stuff, one had been planning to be in VM right now for more than a month... so please, tell us more how TCW has 7 whales wardodging...

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6 minutes ago, Adrienne said:

People are listening to you, Tyrion, but what you're saying isn't matching up with what others are saying. I personally am interested in hearing your responses to what Tarroc had to say here and what Sisyphus asked here.

For Sisyphus' comment - it seems SRD was under the impression there was a push to form a coalition.  And as SRD confirmed since, he heard this secondhand, so maybe we eventually uncover who the parties were - I just know who they aren't.  I am aware Sphinx felt that way about Quack before we fought TCW because he came to us when our war with them started and said why are you coming for us when there's another sphere that's going to dominate the game?  So I would imagine the intel SRD got is likely from/through Sphinx - but we had zero politics strategy discussions with Sphinx, we purposely kept him at arms length for a trial period to see if the relationship could be built.  After addition to Swamp, we didn't hear of Sphinx having any such conversations around the game and certainly didn't with Swamp FA leaders.  Sphinx left prior to this current war, yet TCW was still on the hook for his actions and that CB, yet Boyce shared the same thoughts in the DM leaks with Sphinx but was trusted into Quack sphere.  The intel being used for that portion of the CB was faulty (again, not faulting Quack for running with it) and if we had a chance to discuss prior to entire game militarization, I suspect this whole thing would have been avoided.

As per Tarroc's comments, Sphinx came to me shortly after our war with TCW ended, indicating he didn't think their sphere was viable and wanted to know if Swamp was an option.  So yes, our intention was to help them get back on their feet and didn't spell that out in the greater group DM that Tarroc would have been a part of when it came to actually implementing the inclusion.  But at the same time we cautioned them that the addition to TCW would make Swamp start to look the size of Quack and that was a concern in how we'd be viewed going forward.  While our sheets still showed Quack about 1M score larger after TCW, we were cognizant of the optics and so we stated to all the other spheres that our size is short-term (and honestly were worried they'd go to Quack if we told him no, since he had few options).  As I mentioned in one of my other comments, we will look to right-size post-war.  What that'll look like, I don't know just yet.  It could mean any of the current Swamp AA's, including TCW or others, move elsewhere.  We are still committed to a 5-6 sphere world to the extent that's possible.

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Either Tyrion is completely out of the loop and his sphere has been maneuvering around him.

OR 

He is attempting to get one over on everybody.

Either way, I'd suggest he stop digging before the hole becomes too treacherously deep.

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One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

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11 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

Either Tyrion is completely out of the loop and his sphere has been maneuvering around him.

OR 

He is attempting to get one over on everybody.

Either way, I'd suggest he stop digging before the hole becomes too treacherously deep.

As they say, the truth will set you free.  I'm been completely honest in my responses here.  If I'm out of the loop with my sphere then show me the logs and I'll eat humble pie (and ream whoever was going behind our backs).

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5 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

As they say, the truth will set you free.  I'm been completely honest in my responses here.  If I'm out of the loop with my sphere then show me the logs and I'll eat humble pie (and ream whoever was going behind our backs).

Your truth is a lie.

 

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9 minutes ago, Tarroc said:

Thanks for @ing me so I could know when you responded. Don't worry though, I'm still here.

 

Let's address a few things here. The first of which is, no, you're not gonna wiggle out of this one. You did indeed caution that that tCW bloc joining Swamp would make it too large, I will confirm this is true, you and the other Swamp reps did do this. That being said, the desire of this was not to get tCW on its feet, Tyrion, I'm not gonna let you try to make that argument. More than a few full on discussions happened as to which tCW allies would be dropped, one of which was TEst, although UPN was also another alliance that was named but Sphinx was oddly defensive of UPN for some reason.

Embassies in each of the Swamp alliance discords were created, members of tCW flooded into the embassy and the discord and economic dealings were made. On more than a few occasions, including in the group chat and in your own alliance's embassy, things were referred to as tCW proving itself to Swamp, before being given more full fledged access.

TLDR; Size was indeed a concern, although that was something that was settled before the treaties were even signed, don't lie to me Tyrion.

As for the concern of Sphinx causing tCW to join Quack, don't give me that shit, Tyrion. As was said on @Thalmor's lovely radio show when Sphinx and I were guest stars, @Scratchy asked both Sphinx and I about tCW and the idea of forming hegemonies, due to tCW's history with Hegemonies (IQ). Both Sphinx and myself said neither of us had any intention of that happening and would refuse to let it happen. I believe my exact words were something along the lines of "If something like that was happening, I would retire and walk away, because I won't be part of that" although someone can go watch the show to figure out what I said exactly.

Even if we don't want to take what was said at face value, let's look at the reality of the situation. Sphinx did not like TKR or T$. Sphinx, on multiple occasions, talked about wanting to beat Quack because he thought they were too strong and were bad for the game. Sphinx made no secret that he held a lot of bad blood towards TKR stemming all the way back to Knightfall, as he blamed TKR for forcing tCW to stay in the war for the sake of TKR's pride, and that it cost tCW a number of whales and long time members and friends. Sphinx also made no secret about the fact that he had a strong distaste for The Syndicate and its members. Seeing as Sphinx wanted to retain UPN as a direct ally, do you genuinely believe there was any possibility of @Prefonteen allowing tCW to join Quack? The Snake, with UPN in his bloc? I think the frick not.

So Quack is out of the picture as a potential ally if Swamp said no, don't give that bullshit excuse, Tyrion. Now, let's look at the other blocs.

There was Rose and Camelot, but again, there was no hiding the fact that Sphinx, and more than a few members of tCW gov had strong distaste for Camelot due to certain members there, so the idea of tCW signing up with Rose and Camelot was, while technically possibly, was honestly less likely than tCW deciding to be a neutral and paperless alliance again.

The last major bloc out there was Hedge, and I'm sure we don't need to go into details as to why that was not a viable option, but just to make it clear, bad blood between tCW and Grumpy (I remembered Ronnie) due to fighting in NPO's Last Time, as well as the still lingering matter of Sphinx wanting to fight Children Of The Light over the matter of the return of Odin's safekeeping. 

 

Big TLDR: Getting tCW on its feet is a lie, and the idea of signing tCW so it didn't sign with other blocs is a lie, because there were no real other blocs tCW was going to sign with.

Yes, there is an opportunity for TCW to become full-fledged members, that's not incorrect.  But it would be as part of a reorganization overall within Swamp if that's the desired outcome.  But this also was positioned to me from Sphinx as an opportunity to reorganize internally and re-evaluate their treaties and their place in the treaty web, per what he wrote to me:
image.png.ec73a5e32936b4ad70294de2664ebe19.png
TCW has an opportunity to become full members and our intention by adding them the way we did was to give them the opportunity to reorganize themselves and figure out how they wish to move forward while building that relationship.  They are one of the better AAs in the game and hopefully they'd feel comfortable leading a sphere again at some point.  But if not, we'll find a way to incorporate them further into Swamp if that's what everyone agrees to be the best path forward.  We are still committed to smaller spheres when the dust settles, one way or another though.  

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3 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Yes, there is an opportunity for TCW to become full-fledged members, that's not incorrect.  But it would be as part of a reorganization overall within Swamp if that's the desired outcome.  But this also was positioned to me from Sphinx as an opportunity to reorganize internally and re-evaluate their treaties and their place in the treaty web, per what he wrote to me:
image.png.ec73a5e32936b4ad70294de2664ebe19.png
TCW has an opportunity to become full members and our intention by adding them the way we did was to give them the opportunity to reorganize themselves and figure out how they wish to move forward while building that relationship.  They are one of the better AAs in the game and hopefully they'd feel comfortable leading a sphere again at some point.  But if not, we'll find a way to incorporate them further into Swamp if that's what everyone agrees to be the best path forward.  We are still committed to smaller spheres when the dust settles, one way or another though.  

Your screenshot says absolutely nothing. Its only sphinx' first approach to you (I think?) and implies nothing about how any integration would occur or not. For someone who disputed our claims I expect a much cleaner piece of evidence, if im frank. Live up to your own standards.

I'll also note that you mentioned earlier that your intent was to sign sphinx and spin him back out. Now you've pivoted to "Well no uhhh we wanted to rEoRgAnIzE".

How are we supposed to take this seriously?

 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Yes, there is an opportunity for TCW to become full-fledged members, that's not incorrect.  But it would be as part of a reorganization overall within Swamp if that's the desired outcome.  But this also was positioned to me from Sphinx as an opportunity to reorganize internally and re-evaluate their treaties and their place in the treaty web, per what he wrote to me:
image.png.ec73a5e32936b4ad70294de2664ebe19.png
TCW has an opportunity to become full members and our intention by adding them the way we did was to give them the opportunity to reorganize themselves and figure out how they wish to move forward while building that relationship.  They are one of the better AAs in the game and hopefully they'd feel comfortable leading a sphere again at some point.  But if not, we'll find a way to incorporate them further into Swamp if that's what everyone agrees to be the best path forward.  We are still committed to smaller spheres when the dust settles, one way or another though.  

That's fine, but don't portray it as the treaty was done to help tCW get on its feet. tCW had been through worse and had survived. tCW was on its feet, it was just looking for allies. As we said in the chat itself, tCW was intending on joining Swamp, and that it was a trial period. You and Alexio talked about it needing to be a trial period, and nothing that was said in your screenshot gives any sense of it being a temporary thing to help tCW get on its feet.

 

What Sphinx is talking about is his desire to get rid of TEst as allies, as well as Carthago, and fix internal issues, especially ones that were economic, due to the fact that tCW's economics was in shambles, due in large part to his meddling and interferring in them. Sphinx himself also talked about the fact that tCW was not an alliance that really led blocs. When it was allies with TKR, and Guardian, no one in their right mind thought it was the leader of that bloc. When tCW was with BK, no one thought it was the leader of that bloc. Sphinx said himself, tCW was an economic alliance that did not care to lead blocs and did not really like to fight wars. From the very beginning, the intention from tCW, which we were open and honest about, was not to have a temporary ally to allow us to get back on our feet, our intent was to get entrance to another bloc.

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52 minutes ago, Harry Flashman said:

Hey, you think you’ve got problems Partisan, I’ve had to move to Maroon because you’re tanking my bonus.

Just make sure you stay off the color when we get it back up to the top again. 

One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

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11 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

So much finger pointing.  This has gotten juicy.

I don’t see anything good coming out of this after the war ends.

Well, people are dogpiling us with a laughable accusation that somehow we were trying to "roll others out of the game" by peacefully building in our own little corner, so yeah, I think shit is going to be a lot different in a lot of not so great ways.  It's the world they chose to build.

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16 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

Well, people are dogpiling us with a laughable accusation that somehow we were trying to "roll others out of the game" by peacefully building in our own little corner, so yeah, I think shit is going to be a lot different in a lot of not so great ways.  It's the world they chose to build.

Who said you guys were trying to roll them out of the game?  I haven't seen that accusation.  I've mostly seen them concerned of the tiering, pretty much.  Which is par for the course on a good chunk of wars in this game's history.  Like I've stated, it seemed this war was mostly for containment purposes.

But with the way how some leaders are talking on both sides, I was suspecting that there may have been more to this than what's on the surface.

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