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We are here for the whales - t$ DoW


Prefonteen
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1 minute ago, Prefonteen said:

You spent months pretending to be friendly, and again: Ronny confirmed you approached him. Your wall of text falls on deaf ears. You sought a dogpile, you got it. The only cost is your credibility.

That's fine, believe what you want.  We weren't pretending to be friendly.  Ronny did not confirm we approached him, he said he heard stuff secondhand.  We did not discuss taking out Quack offensively.  If it was Sphinx, we had no knowledge of that - we didn't talk greater game politics with him when bringing him in.  

You wanted a dogpile against HM and TCW and hoped we'd stand back and let it happen.  BUT yes, if we did have to fight Quack, why wouldn't we want as many allies as possible?  It's like the US Military - they aren't looking for an even fight, they want to be overwhelming when they fight.  

And look, I'm not saying you didn't have a CB you felt was valid.  You acted on the intel you got and made a decision  you felt was right.  We can both be right though.  Swamp leadership only discussed defensive agreements with the other spheres.  You can choose to not believe me, that's fine.  But at the end of the day, the actual war that occurred is a result of Quack building up and blitzing HM/TCW.  Those are the only facts that are unquestioned by all.  Again, I understand the intel you gathered and why you acted on that the way you did.  There was just some bad intel included in there.  

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7 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

A little bit - maybe not in the short term, but there was some concern that if Quack eventually saw us as the #2 sphere in terms of size that they might get threatened and want to take us out.  Might not have been this year, but perhaps next.  Even now you see them point to our member count and how big we supposedly are, so that concern isn't completely unfounded.  We do still prefer a 5-6 balanced sphere game and we will look to "right size" in a post-war world.  

We were hoping Quack wouldn't get aggressive though, so it was purely precautionary and defensive from Swamp's standpoint.  (On a personal note, TKR/T$ have been two of my favorite AAs to deal with so this wasn't an easy move - just felt it was necessary to protect ourselves from this scenario playing out).  If they didn't come for anyone, we wouldn't need to force the issue.  Probably would have gone the route of political pressure to have Quack shrink before anything militarily.  But when we looked at our own numbers, Swamp couldn't beat Quack 1 v 1 and really I don't think any two spheres felt comfortable they'd be able to win over Quack.   Quack wanted a Hedge/Swamp war it seemed, because they felt it was winnable for them (and I wouldn't dispute that), which furthers the point that they are as big as they are in that it does take all three spheres to beat them.  Heck, even now there are plenty of tiers where wars are tightly contested.  It's a testament to how strong Quack is.  But if one sphere like Hedge fell, there'd be nothing to stop them from deciding anyone else was a threat that needed to be dealt with.  I think the entire game felt the weight and risk of that threat and everyone did what they felt was necessary to protect themselves from that scenario playing out.  Be mad at it or call BS, it was our assessment of the situation and frankly I'm glad we did the FA work, because if we hadn't, I'm sure most people watching believe that we'd be the ones getting rolled right now.

Anyway, as stated above, no reason for people to get angry/toxic over any of this.  Let's let the war play out and all move on.  War is part of the game and will be costly for all parties and hopefully we can get through this phase and continue to build a fun dynamic game going forward.  My DMs are open if people want to discuss more.

I'll admit I'm relatively new to this game, and even newer to the FA scene. But I've been a diplomat to a couple swamp alliances for a while now, and I know the marching orders I was given. Which was that relationships with Swamp was a priority. TKR wanted close relationships with you all, lots of members and gov consider a lot of people in Swamp their friends. 

You can be worried about hypothetical situations all day, but the reality of the matter is this war only occurred because you all wanted it. Swamp was the one going around trying to get people on board for an aggressive war against Quack. We had no intentions of coming for Quack, or for Hedge. Ya'll can try and paint us into the corner as the big bad wolf, but that's not the reality. You've made us into a boogeyman of Hegemony all the while you have tried to create your own global hegemony to take us down. 

I don't want to be toxic and I'm trying to avoid it. I'm come to like and respect the people in Swamp I've met so far, just want to point out that this war as scenario of your own making. We didn't want it. We didn't seek it out. 

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1 minute ago, Lord Tyrion said:

That's fine, believe what you want.  We weren't pretending to be friendly.  Ronny did not confirm we approached him, he said he heard stuff secondhand.  We did not discuss taking out Quack offensively.  If it was Sphinx, we had no knowledge of that - we didn't talk greater game politics with him when bringing him in.  

You wanted a dogpile against HM and TCW and hoped we'd stand back and let it happen.  BUT yes, if we did have to fight Quack, why wouldn't we want as many allies as possible?  It's like the US Military - they aren't looking for an even fight, they want to be overwhelming when they fight.  

And look, I'm not saying you didn't have a CB you felt was valid.  You acted on the intel you got and made a decision  you felt was right.  We can both be right though.  Swamp leadership only discussed defensive agreements with the other spheres.  You can choose to not believe me, that's fine.  But at the end of the day, the actual war that occurred is a result of Quack building up and blitzing HM/TCW.  Those are the only facts that are unquestioned by all.  Again, I understand the intel you gathered and why you acted on that the way you did.  There was just some bad intel included in there.  

And still you try to pull out this "quack man bad dogpile bad" bogus.

 

Our attempt at pre-empting an impending coalition of 3 - 4 spheres is entirely within reason, justified by the leaks of sphinx, confirmation of backroom agreements by various people, and direct confirmation of SRD that things were being planned a month before we milled up.

You can keep sticking your fingers in your ear and yelling "la la la" but that won't convince a soul, given the evidence laid out against you.

 

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54 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand.  Some gov of Swamp is saying it wasn't their idea, so I dont know whose idea it was besides Sphinx since he was pushing for it even back when we were at war with them.

I can only share what I know because this argument is dumb and yeah no shit people talk to other people about going to war with entities they cant beat straight up.  Is coalition building somehow against the rules?    Side note, I hear alot of quack being like its not our fault we are awesome at growing we haven't signed anyone new in a while.  Yeah because you started as such a giant force that no single sphere could beat you straight up.  So congrats on not getting even bigger I guess, but as stated by a few people in this thread earlier, the instant 2 of the the 3 top alliances and their adjoining allies in the game joined together you became a huge threat to everyone else in the game. 

Its not like there were not options out there, I know our first choice was to team up with TKR after the IQ war ended because looking at the numbers that would have made the spheres significantly more even.  We ended up making a smaller sphere that we have been growing for our own protection.

Ah the inevitable backpedal

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42 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

No - I clarified we did discuss mutual defense against Quack aggression.  We did not have any conversations about going on the offensive against them.

Why would SRD need support from Rose before agreeing to mutual defense?

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6 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Get on topic. Ronny confirmed he was approached a month before we milled up. Our CB isnt what's cracky here. Read up, and come back with a new response.

If they said they were discussing defensive options, shouldn't you that scrutinize first? Without that, how are about to affirm anything?

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1 minute ago, Tarroc said:

So I'm not here to comment about the first half of this post, that's been done to death. I am here, however, to comment about the second half of this post.

 

As someone who was in that chat, Tyrion, that's a bold face lie. I was in this chat from the beginning of it, and I left when I left The Commonwealth. I was vocal in that chat, I was very active in that chat, and I read all of the messages of that chat. I was there, as I was serving as the head of Foreign Affairs. at no point whatsoever was it ever said the treaty was to help TCW get back on its feet. As someone who was there, what was said was that it was a trial period.

 

It was said that that level of the treaty was while tCW proved itself and addressed the concerns about Swamp. It was specifically said that when those concerns were addressed, TCW would address more fully and completely joining Swamp. It was not given access to the coalition servers. It was not allowed to vote on things as a full-fledged member of swamp. It was however said that it would be allowed to be vocal on its opinion on things.

At no point whatsoever was it said that this treaty was to help the Commonwealth get back on its feet. You can have whatever reasons you want for fighting this war, but as someone who was in the chat, don't expect me to sit here and let you lie about what was said in that chat, and what the purpose of it was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

aaaand another lie confirmed. Do yourself a favor tyrion, stop trying to justify the unjustifiable. Maybe you can save whatever political capital you retain after this, and rebuild from scratch.

At least as far as we're concerned.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

A little bit - maybe not in the short term, but there was some concern that if Quack eventually saw us as the #2 sphere in terms of size that they might get threatened and want to take us out.  Might not have been this year, but perhaps next.  Even now you see them point to our member count and how big we supposedly are, so that concern isn't completely unfounded.  We do still prefer a 5-6 balanced sphere game and we will look to "right size" in a post-war world.  

I think this is a bit of a projection.  My understanding of why Swamp would want Quack out is because they're the only other sphere that can compete on an even level with y'all given the unparalleled concentration of tiering at the lower levels.  Our FA strategy has always been to keep up good relations with everyone, specifically y'all and Rose, and to react as best as we can to events as they came up.  Quack aggression has never been considered not the least because we were aware of concerns, illegitimate or not, about our size.  We were open about that with you.  We don't just use friendliness as a front.

15 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

But when we looked at our own numbers, Swamp couldn't beat Quack 1 v 1 and really I don't think any two spheres felt comfortable they'd be able to win over Quack.   Quack wanted a Hedge/Swamp war it seemed, because they felt it was winnable for them (and I wouldn't dispute that), which furthers the point that they are as big as they are in that it does take all three spheres to beat them.  Heck, even now there are plenty of tiers where wars are tightly contested.  It's a testament to how strong Quack is.  But if one sphere like Hedge fell, there'd be nothing to stop them from deciding anyone else was a threat that needed to be dealt with.  I think the entire game felt the weight and risk of that threat and everyone did what they felt was necessary to protect themselves from that scenario playing out.  Be mad at it or call BS, it was our assessment of the situation and frankly I'm glad we did the FA work, because if we hadn't, I'm sure most people watching believe that we'd be the ones getting rolled right now.

Hi, this is extremely problematic for the entire cause of this war.  More than anything else, the reason why smaller spheres fail is because people want more security.  We felt the same way about a Hedge/Swamp war.  We weren't confident, but that's why we were content with such a dynamic.  Nonetheless, this isn't a war we wanted.  It was a war we were given, and we responded to appropriately.  At best, we had 50/50 odds if we had a semi-blitz advantage (we didn't have the numbers to even consider attacking Swamp) and whatever this ethereal competence is that you assign to us.  That's the point of a multipolar world, engaging in risky FA and military maneuvers.  It keeps you on your toes, and that's what people are supposed to mean when they point to dynamism.  Being unsure about winning a war is a horrible reason to organize a dogpile, and it's more evidence of overestimation than anything else.  If we're going to run such narratives, then you can't run the pretense of also considering the meta or use rhetoric about spheres and balancing.  This was about personal interests.

15 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Anyway, as stated above, no reason for people to get angry/toxic over any of this.  Let's let the war play out and all move on.  War is part of the game and will be costly for all parties and hopefully we can get through this phase and continue to build a fun dynamic game going forward.  My DMs are open if people want to discuss more.

None of us here have been toxic.  We might use strong language in our arguments, but none of it is directed at you or anyone else.  Unfortunately, we can't just move on.  Actions were taken that are clearly out of the norm, and they need to be addressed.  People just can't get off the hook.  These exchanges are happening to get to that point of some sense of closure and revealing publicly those machinations that led to this point.  

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2 minutes ago, Cooper_ said:

None of us here have been toxic.  We might use strong language in our arguments, but none of it is directed at you or anyone else.  Unfortunately, we can't just move on.  Actions were taken that are clearly out of the norm, and they need to be addressed.  People just can't get off the hook.  These exchanges are happening to get to that point of some sense of closure and revealing publicly those machinations that led to this point.  

Okay, well if people want to address the issues then we'll let that unfold in due time.  I'll just state one last time, I can't truly comment on something I didn't know about.  There were no schemes that I was aware of to go on the offensive against Quack.  People want to believe that narrative because they were told it by others.  Find the logs that show Swamp leadership organizing a coalition to blitz Quack.  There won't be any, because they don't exist.  Both sides seemingly got paranoid of the other and acted accordingly.  

But I'll bow out of the forums for now, it seems people only want to keep ignoring what I say are the facts because somebody else told them something different.  If people want to share actual evidence rather than he said, she said, then we can discuss further.

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1 minute ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Okay, well if people want to address the issues then we'll let that unfold in due time.  I'll just state one last time, I can't truly comment on something I didn't know about.  There were no schemes that I was aware of to go on the offensive against Quack.  People want to believe that narrative because they were told it by others.  Find the logs that show Swamp leadership organizing a coalition to blitz Quack.  There won't be any, because they don't exist.  Both sides seemingly got paranoid of the other and acted accordingly.  

But I'll bow out of the forums for now, it seems people only want to keep ignoring what I say are the facts because somebody else told them something different.  If people want to share actual evidence rather than he said, she said, then we can discuss further.

Don't bow out before addressing your other lie.

 

https://forum.politicsandwar.com/index.php?/topic/30090-we-are-here-for-the-whales-t-dow/&do=findComment&comment=475676

 

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Not gonna add any content here or even an official statement from TCW as I do not speak for the whole.. but it seems to me like this is a "punish sphinx for being a fool" campaign yet Sphinx is unable to be touched so the rest of the alliance gets to suffer, even though we, the members, had nothing to do with his discussions... Help me understand the logic?

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Just now, Jeric said:

Not gonna add any content here or even an official statement from TCW as I do not speak for the whole.. but it seems to me like this is a "punish sphinx for being a fool" campaign yet Sphinx is unable to be touched so the rest of the alliance gets to suffer, even though we, the members, had nothing to do with his discussions... Help me understand the logic?

read up. Your side has confirmed that at least 3/4 of the spheres were looking to roll quack a month before we militarized. It got leaked through sphinx, which is why TCW was hit along with HM.

Do a few pages of reading, and you'll know why we're at war.

 

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1 minute ago, Jeric said:

Not gonna add any content here or even an official statement from TCW as I do not speak for the whole.. but it seems to me like this is a "punish sphinx for being a fool" campaign yet Sphinx is unable to be touched so the rest of the alliance gets to suffer, even though we, the members, had nothing to do with his discussions... Help me understand the logic?

If you don't like dealing with the consequences of an incompetent leader, perhaps it's time to find a better leader?

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2 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Okay, well if people want to address the issues then we'll let that unfold in due time.  I'll just state one last time, I can't truly comment on something I didn't know about.  There were no schemes that I was aware of to go on the offensive against Quack.  People want to believe that narrative because they were told it by others.  Find the logs that show Swamp leadership organizing a coalition to blitz Quack.  There won't be any, because they don't exist.  Both sides seemingly got paranoid of the other and acted accordingly.  

But I'll bow out of the forums for now, it seems people only want to keep ignoring what I say are the facts because somebody else told them something different.  If people want to share actual evidence rather than he said, she said, then we can discuss further.

People are listening to you, Tyrion, but what you're saying isn't matching up with what others are saying. I personally am interested in hearing your responses to what Tarroc had to say here and what Sisyphus asked here.

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52 minutes ago, BigMorf said:

But like... why were you worried about Quack aggression? We've been focusing for a while on our relationship with Swamp and the only reason we went to war this time is to pre-empt a war that was coming our way. Quack is not some evil group that's looking to pin down and beat people up one by one. That's what ya'll did to TCW but we were content to sit on the sidelines and chill. 

Swamp is projecting their own attitudes onto us.  They know they're the bad guy, it's about how many people they can hoodwink into thinking the opposite.  When we wouldn't merge spheres with TI to become an actual hegemony like TI wanted, we became an obstacle to their designs.  So here we are.

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3 minutes ago, Sval said:

If you don't like dealing with the consequences of an incompetent leader, perhaps it's time to find a better leader?

Did you not read? He resigned and a better leader has already stepped up... 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

and this is where we can stop taking your shilling seriously.

Demanding certainty = "shilling".

Do you guys just read anything that can be remotely used to further whatever narrative you have? All this time I have only asked for one thing and its just proof. In that same post you referenced of Ronny saying they were in talks with Swamp a month prior, it says all discussions ceased after 3 weeks. Later you're told these talks were supposedly "defensive".

So now, you've been told the discussions were not for planning a 3v1, and these talks never went anywhere.

I get it if you don't believe them, but why are you dismissing them as liars, instead of scrutinizing the reasons given? They very well could be lying, but you dismissing it doesn't get at anything.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Not gonna add any content here or even an official statement from TCW as I do not speak for the whole.. but it seems to me like this is a "punish sphinx for being a fool" campaign yet Sphinx is unable to be touched so the rest of the alliance gets to suffer, even though we, the members, had nothing to do with his discussions... Help me understand the logic?

So the response is for the rest of the whales in TCW to VM also? Because we are up to 7 other than Sphinx, at last count. I'll await more info about why these wardodgers were necessary, given that you are on the significantly larger side of the conflict.

For the record, nobody is painting Sphinx as a fool. We are responding to an active threat, one that has been confirmed by actions and words, about a coalition of the entirety of Orbis organizing a dogpile on Quack.

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3 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Did you not read? He resigned and a better leader has already stepped up... 

And all it took was consecutive global wars caused by Sphinx's inability to not-leak.

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1 minute ago, Arric II Vysera said:

Demanding certainty = "shilling".

Do you guys just read anything that can be remotely used to further whatever narrative you have? All this time I have only asked for one thing and its just proof. In that same post you referenced of Ronny saying they were in talks with Swamp a month prior, it says all discussions ceased after 3 weeks. Later you're told these talks were supposedly "defensive".

So now, you've been told the discussions were not for planning a 3v1, and these talks never went anywhere.

I get it if you don't believe them, but why are you dismissing them as liars, instead of scrutinizing the reasons given? They very well could be lying, but you dismissing it doesn't get at anything.

 

According to ronny, as per that post, the talks ceased because rose had not (yet) bought in. HM would not move without having 4 spheres, instead of 3.

The base fact underlying our CB (that you were looking to roll us with a majority of the game, and that you sought to convince rose of joining that gangbang) is undisputed except by tyrion who has failed to produce anything of note. The rest is confirmed by your own sphere leaders.

That is why you are being dismissed. Because you are blatantly and obnoxiously ignoring the obvious and asking for "more proof" in search of minor details to nitpick at in order to be able to call us out for pre-empting you.

 

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13 minutes ago, Benfro said:

So the response is for the rest of the whales in TCW to VM also? Because we are up to 7 other than Sphinx, at last count. I'll await more info about why these wardodgers were necessary, given that you are on the significantly larger side of the conflict.

For the record, nobody is painting Sphinx as a fool. We are responding to an active threat, one that has been confirmed by actions and words, about a coalition of the entirety of Orbis organizing a dogpile on Quack.

As far as I know each one of them that is in vm for Real life obligations. 

 

Also I was unaware that sub 30 was whale tier.

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