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22 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

Looks up a few posts

Hmm.... Something doesn't seem to check out here. Either your "ally" is lying to throw ya'll under the bus or you are to save face. Either way not a good look for my boys the Anti-Hegemony Coalition. One group in this war is acting like old-IQ right now, and spoilers it's not Quack Sphere. 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

I don't know where Ronnie got his info.  Not accusing him of anything - if he heard or talked to somebody, it wasn't at the knowledge/direction of our leadership.  And who's doing name calling?  There is nothing going back to old ways.  No reason to not be civil here.  

Yes our intention with TCW was/is to help them get back on their feet.  Their sphere wasn't viable and they needed time to recover.  But at the same time, they did have an M-level treaty with us, so they were protected while they do so.  We are obligated to defend them.  

You can repeat "we didnt know" as much as you want.

It only makes this look dumber.

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When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand.  Some gov of Swamp is saying it wasn't their idea, so I dont know whose idea it was besides Sphinx since he was pushing for it even back when we were at war with them.

I can only share what I know because this argument is dumb and yeah no shit people talk to other people about going to war with entities they cant beat straight up.  Is coalition building somehow against the rules?    Side note, I hear alot of quack being like its not our fault we are awesome at growing we haven't signed anyone new in a while.  Yeah because you started as such a giant force that no single sphere could beat you straight up.  So congrats on not getting even bigger I guess, but as stated by a few people in this thread earlier, the instant 2 of the the 3 top alliances and their adjoining allies in the game joined together you became a huge threat to everyone else in the game. 

Its not like there were not options out there, I know our first choice was to team up with TKR after the IQ war ended because looking at the numbers that would have made the spheres significantly more even.  We ended up making a smaller sphere that we have been growing for our own protection.

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14 minutes ago, WarriorSoul said:

1. That's fair. I didn't actually anticipate anyone in your coalition would be upset having an enormous numerical advantage, so I figured you weren't speaking for them.

2. Calling "the competence gap" a threat doesn't make it any less asinine. Rather than try and emulate it, the goal is to destroy it. Am I getting that part right?

3. Yes, diplomacy is good, lest you think I disagree. My point was what good does "trying to convince others of our world view" do when their worldview necessitates neutralizing any threat we pose to them, the plans for which have been confirmed in this very thread.

1. No worries.

2. Eh, that's a great point. The antidote to the competence gap is to git gud. Been that way since that meme came into existence. I am frankly a mere robot when it comes to war so I know that competence is necessary for success, but unlike the post below, it's not easy. It takes people who are willing to put hours into make spreadsheets and analyzing Sheepy's random ass mechanics changes, and then making sure that people actually follow a plan. That's not easy.

3. That's literally the good it does. I don't think HM, Swamp, or Rose's worldviews are fixed. They are stubborn twats just like you all, but seems that leadership in this game selects for that. (this sounded funnier in my head, I think its funny, don't be offended)

12 minutes ago, Roberts said:

This is the silliest argument and I wish it would disappear forever from these forums. Roquentin used this line so many times, so often, it's sad.

This game involves logging in once or twice a day during peak wartime, otherwise sitting on your hands and logging in once a week during peace. There is no intangible quality making t$ a threat other than their stats, please stay away from the ethereal Mr. Hodor, you're far better than parroting Roquentin.

For further thoughts please refer to:

 

 

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1 minute ago, Prefonteen said:

You can repeat "we didnt know" as much as you want.

It only makes this look dumber.

Again, name calling isn't necessary.   As Ronny clarifies below, he heard it all second hand and wasn't involved in any discussions either.  So I'll say it again, those discussions didn't happen.  If you pull up a log that says otherwise, I'll be happy to have it thrown in my face, because they don't exist.  

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30 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.

 

1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I can tell you straight up what has been going on from Grumpy's point of view.  Swamp came to HM about a month ago, asking about hitting you guys

 

14 minutes ago, Benfro said:

Also, tag, you are it! When TCW signed with &, we were repetitively told it would be temporary, not formally part of Swamp, etc.

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5 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

When I found out about potentially hitting Quack it was presented to me as Swamp came to us asking about it, I wasn't directly involved in the original discussion, I heard about it second hand.  Some gov of Swamp is saying it wasn't their idea, so I dont know whose idea it was besides Sphinx since he was pushing for it even back when we were at war with them.

I can only share what I know because this argument is dumb and yeah no shit people talk to other people about going to war with entities they cant beat straight up.  Is coalition building somehow against the rules?    Side note, I hear alot of quack being like its not our fault we are awesome at growing we haven't signed anyone new in a while.  Yeah because you started as such a giant force that no single sphere could beat you straight up.  So congrats on not getting even bigger I guess, but as stated by a few people in this thread earlier, the instant 2 of the the 3 top alliances and their adjoining allies in the game joined together you became a huge threat to everyone else in the game. 

Its not like there were not options out there, I know our first choice was to team up with TKR after the IQ war ended because looking at the numbers that would have made the spheres significantly more even.  We ended up making a smaller sphere that we have been growing for our own protection.

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Just trying to get caught up here. 

Okay.... so we get logs that indicate TCW/Swamp were gunning for Quack with the support of HM. This is denied by both parties.

We get confirmation from several people indicating that cooperation/paperless agreements were in place between Swamp and HM.

SRD enters this thread and I can only assume mistakenly admits that such discussions took place, such coalition was formed and that they were just waiting for Rose before they made their move.

Tyrion enters and fans the flames of the dumpster fire that SRD started, admitting that Swamp and HM do in fact have a paperless agreement and that they had discussions about dealing with Quack. 

 

Nowwwww both Tyrion and SRD are saying no conversations of any shape or form took place between Swamp and HM Governments. 

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1 minute ago, Justin076 said:

Just trying to get caught up here. 

Okay.... so we get logs that indicate TCW/Swamp were gunning for Quack with the support of HM. This is denied by both parties.

We get confirmation from several people indicating that cooperation/paperless agreements were in place between Swamp and HM.

SRD enters this thread and I can only assume mistakenly admits that such discussions took place, such coalition was formed and that they were just waiting for Rose before they made their move.

Tyrion enters and fans the flames of the dumpster fire that SRD started, admitting that Swamp and HM do in fact have a paperless agreement and that they had discussions about dealing with Quack. 

 

Nowwwww both Tyrion and SRD are saying no conversations of any shape or form took place between Swamp and HM Governments. 

No - I clarified we did discuss mutual defense against Quack aggression.  We did not have any conversations about going on the offensive against them.

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14 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

Side note, I hear alot of quack being like its not our fault we are awesome at growing we haven't signed anyone new in a while.  Yeah because you started as such a giant force that no single sphere could beat you straight up.  So congrats on not getting even bigger I guess, but as stated by a few people in this thread earlier, the instant 2 of the the 3 top alliances and their adjoining allies in the game joined together you became a huge threat to everyone else in the game.

TBH, there could be a significant indictment of Swamp here, given that Immortals and TFP are both Top 5 mainstays, and then bringing on TCW who is #6 actually gives them even more lift. There is real balance going on with Orbis if you stop and look at the numbers rather than just the characters behind them. Even Rose and Camelot pairing has nice lift too.

Edit: And yes, I'm just going to stop dancing around it and say TCW is Swamp for all intents and purposes given Tyrion's use of "us" and "our" describing them.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Again, name calling isn't necessary.   As Ronny clarifies below, he heard it all second hand and wasn't involved in any discussions either.  So I'll say it again, those discussions didn't happen.  If you pull up a log that says otherwise, I'll be happy to have it thrown in my face, because they don't exist.  

There was no name calling in that statement. I said you're making the war look dumb. Because the justifications and everything that's come out since has invalidated your rhetoric.

The onus of proof is frankly no longer on quack. Good luck slithering.

 

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1 minute ago, Lord Tyrion said:

No - I clarified we did discuss mutual defense against Quack aggression.  We did not have any conversations about going on the offensive against them.

But like... why were you worried about Quack aggression? We've been focusing for a while on our relationship with Swamp and the only reason we went to war this time is to pre-empt a war that was coming our way. Quack is not some evil group that's looking to pin down and beat people up one by one. That's what ya'll did to TCW but we were content to sit on the sidelines and chill. 

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2 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

Just trying to get caught up here. 

Okay.... so we get logs that indicate TCW/Swamp were gunning for Quack with the support of HM. This is denied by both parties.

We get confirmation from several people indicating that cooperation/paperless agreements were in place between Swamp and HM.

SRD enters this thread and I can only assume mistakenly admits that such discussions took place, such coalition was formed and that they were just waiting for Rose before they made their move.

Tyrion enters and fans the flames of the dumpster fire that SRD started, admitting that Swamp and HM do in fact have a paperless agreement and that they had discussions about dealing with Quack. 

 

Nowwwww both Tyrion and SRD are saying no conversations of any shape or form took place between Swamp and HM Governments. 

If you want to twist what I said to your narrative sure.  If you dont think alliance leaders talk about stuff like this all the time behind closed doors and most of the time these ideas never get beyond that, I dont know what to tell you.  I mean you are in tS after all, who have historically pulled more shady shit than just about any alliance currently still around.    Are you guys just upset that this time it wasn't you pulling the strings getting someone else rolled?

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11 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

Just trying to get caught up here. 

Okay.... so we get logs that indicate TCW/Swamp were gunning for Quack with the support of HM. This is denied by both parties.

We get confirmation from several people indicating that cooperation/paperless agreements were in place between Swamp and HM.

SRD enters this thread and I can only assume mistakenly admits that such discussions took place, such coalition was formed and that they were just waiting for Rose before they made their move.

Tyrion enters and fans the flames of the dumpster fire that SRD started, admitting that Swamp and HM do in fact have a paperless agreement and that they had discussions about dealing with Quack. 

 

Nowwwww both Tyrion and SRD are saying no conversations of any shape or form took place between Swamp and HM Governments. 

in SRD's defense, he has been forthright about this in private as well, and he merely repeated what he already told me here.

Others on the other hand, continue to dig.

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5 minutes ago, Benfro said:

TBH, there could be a significant indictment of Swamp here, given that Immortals and TFP are both Top 5 mainstays, and then bringing on TCW who is #6 actually gives them even more lift. There is real balance going on with Orbis if you stop and look at the numbers rather than just the characters behind them. Even Rose and Camelot pairing has nice lift too.

Edit: And yes, I'm just going to stop dancing around it and say TCW is Swamp for all intents and purposes given Tyrion's use of "us" and "our" describing them.

This is a little is like playing "I know you are but what am I"  you guys have been by far the largest sphere in the game since the end of the IQ war.  Swamp out grew you in membership numbers... what like 3 weeks ago, because they picked up TCW, when their block fell apart.  You guys picked up Test didn't you?

It's like you guys are being deliberately obtuse here.  Everyone talks about wanting to be better, drop the crap and be better.

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5 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

If you want to twist what I said to your narrative sure.  If you dont think alliance leaders talk about stuff like this all the time behind closed doors and most of the time these ideas never get beyond that, I dont know what to tell you.  I mean you are in tS after all, who have historically pulled more shady shit than just about any alliance currently still around.    Are you guys just upset that this time it wasn't you pulling the strings getting someone else rolled?

If anybody seems to be complaining about this happening, then I think you're getting the wrong idea.  We initiated the preempt with the goal of limiting the damage these revelations caused to us and doing it on our own terms instead of being sitting ducks (hah pun).  

The question here is the invalidation of our actions that many on your side has been trying to spin.  It doesn't make a lot of sense, especially given your previous statements and those of those of others that confirmed the cooperation we cited in our initial CB.  That's the point we're making here.  We had a justification that now seems even more prescient.  I can say that TKR doesn't conduct it's FA as such, but my take is if you make plans and get caught, then there are consequences.  The beans got spilled here.

The cause of this war is squarely on the parties that began these plans, confirming our CB as a preempt.

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Just now, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

This is a little is like playing "I know you are but what am I"  you guys have been by far the largest sphere in the game since the end of the IQ war.  Swamp out grew you in membership numbers... what like 3 weeks ago, because they picked up TCW, when their block fell apart.  You guys picked up Test didn't you?

It's like you guys are being deliberately obtuse here.  Everyone talks about wanting to be better, drop the crap and be better.

Swamp did not outgrow us. Swamp kept signing stuff. The only reason we grew (and that is why you hear people say "well we were just growing", is because of recruitment and econ. We did not make any moves to consolidate whatsoever, and we actively refrained from trying to take you out, lock anyone down, or expand ourselves.

You felt it was not enough, and frankly anything short of t$-TKR splitting was going to lead you to pursue this outcome.

 

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5 minutes ago, BigMorf said:

But like... why were you worried about Quack aggression? We've been focusing for a while on our relationship with Swamp and the only reason we went to war this time is to pre-empt a war that was coming our way. Quack is not some evil group that's looking to pin down and beat people up one by one. That's what ya'll did to TCW but we were content to sit on the sidelines and chill. 

A little bit - maybe not in the short term, but there was some concern that if Quack eventually saw us as the #2 sphere in terms of size that they might get threatened and want to take us out.  Might not have been this year, but perhaps next.  Even now you see them point to our member count and how big we supposedly are, so that concern isn't completely unfounded.  We do still prefer a 5-6 balanced sphere game and we will look to "right size" in a post-war world.  

We were hoping Quack wouldn't get aggressive though, so it was purely precautionary and defensive from Swamp's standpoint.  (On a personal note, TKR/T$ have been two of my favorite AAs to deal with so this wasn't an easy move - just felt it was necessary to protect ourselves from this scenario playing out).  If they didn't come for anyone, we wouldn't need to force the issue.  Probably would have gone the route of political pressure to have Quack shrink before anything militarily.  But when we looked at our own numbers, Swamp couldn't beat Quack 1 v 1 and really I don't think any two spheres felt comfortable they'd be able to win over Quack.   Quack wanted a Hedge/Swamp war it seemed, because they felt it was winnable for them (and I wouldn't dispute that), which furthers the point that they are as big as they are in that it does take all three spheres to beat them.  Heck, even now there are plenty of tiers where wars are tightly contested.  It's a testament to how strong Quack is.  But if one sphere like Hedge fell, there'd be nothing to stop them from deciding anyone else was a threat that needed to be dealt with.  I think the entire game felt the weight and risk of that threat and everyone did what they felt was necessary to protect themselves from that scenario playing out.  Be mad at it or call BS, it was our assessment of the situation and frankly I'm glad we did the FA work, because if we hadn't, I'm sure most people watching believe that we'd be the ones getting rolled right now.

Anyway, as stated above, no reason for people to get angry/toxic over any of this.  Let's let the war play out and all move on.  War is part of the game and will be costly for all parties and hopefully we can get through this phase and continue to build a fun dynamic game going forward.  My DMs are open if people want to discuss more.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

A little bit - maybe not in the short term, but there was some concern that if Quack eventually saw us as the #2 sphere in terms of size that they might get threatened and want to take us out.  Might not have been this year, but perhaps next.  Even now you see them point to our member count and how big we supposedly are, so that concern isn't completely unfounded.  We do still prefer a 5-6 balanced sphere game and we will look to "right size" in a post-war world.  

We were hoping Quack wouldn't get aggressive though, so it was purely precautionary and defensive from Swamp's standpoint.  (On a personal note, TKR/T$ have been two of my favorite AAs to deal with so this wasn't an easy move - just felt it was necessary to protect ourselves from this scenario playing out).  If they didn't come for anyone, we wouldn't need to force the issue.  Probably would have gone the route of political pressure to have Quack shrink before anything militarily.  But when we looked at our own numbers, Swamp couldn't beat Quack 1 v 1 and really I don't think any two spheres felt comfortable they'd be able to win over Quack.   Quack wanted a Hedge/Swamp war it seemed, because they felt it was winnable for them (and I wouldn't dispute that), which furthers the point that they are as big as they are in that it does take all three spheres to beat them.  Heck, even now there are plenty of tiers where wars are tightly contested.  It's a testament to how strong Quack is.  But if one sphere like Hedge fell, there'd be nothing to stop them from deciding anyone else was a threat that needed to be dealt with.  I think the entire game felt the weight and risk of that threat and everyone did what they felt was necessary to protect themselves from that scenario playing out.  Be mad at it or call BS, it was our assessment of the situation and frankly I'm glad we did the FA work, because if we hadn't, I'm sure most people watching believe that we'd be the ones getting rolled right now.

Anyway, as stated above, no reason for people to get angry/toxic over any of this.  Let's let the war play out and all move on.  War is part of the game and will be costly for all parties and hopefully we can get through this phase and continue to build a fun dynamic game going forward.  My DMs are open if people want to discuss more.

You spent months pretending to be friendly, and again: Ronny confirmed you approached him. Your wall of text falls on deaf ears. You sought a dogpile, you got it. The only cost is your credibility.

Edit: You know very well that we did not seek a war with you. We were dilligent in our communication even before we milled up, and reassured you over and over despite being well aware you might be preparing a dagger for our backs. I communicated as much directly to you.

Edited by Prefonteen
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11 hours ago, Itz said:

Feel free to go read any of Partisan's responses. He's summed all this up rather well.

Like on this thread? Cuz I haven't seen this addressed anywhere. When I brought it up Sisyphus responded with: "this is just obtuse rambling" lol.

Is there a specific post?

11 hours ago, Itz said:

That said, I'll repeat the most important point: If we were getting hit by all 3 anyways (or even 2, as we were fairly certain we were), we may as well take first punch on the most dangerous of the 3.

Which 2 were you certain would hit? Hedge and Swamp, or Hedge and tCW? Why were you only certain 2 would hit, while the logs supporting your CB says 3?

Here's what I don't buy:

You thought it best to inform a bloc that in your minds planned on hitting you alongside Hedge about your plans. The answer given so far is "This is just obtuse rambling", "Ask Partisan" and "We wanted to hit Hedge first".

11 hours ago, Itz said:

Except, as I've mentioned multiple times now, we have government confirmation from both Rose and HM that they had backroom deals.

Yes, there is gov confirmation that they were secretly collaborating. You only know that they're doing it to position themselves against you, you don't even know if was defensive or offensive.

As far as I can tell you guys came to this conclusion by just confirming whatever biases you already had.

No, there is no gov confirmation that they planning this 4 v 1. Notice how your argument is that there were plans between Rose, HM and Swamp to roll Quack? Two posts prior to this you admitted that this only hints to what you think they did. Its a start, but its not a confirmation.

11 hours ago, Itz said:

In reference to this, I'll simply say there was a lot of conversation given Boyce's history as unreliable. That said, there was also enough to corroborate it and the actions taken both during our militarization and during the blitz more or less prove it. If you don't see how use hitting one sphere+tCW and then getting immediately counter blitzed by the two others implicated in the logs doesn't prove it, along with gov admission, not really sure what to tell you.

This again just sounds like confirming whatever biases you already had. You came in to this with the idea that you had a dogpile coming for you, and now that you've attacked, and have instead been dogpiled in response, you believe this was all coming anyway.

Pretty much the only way to know that for sure, was waiting to see if it happened. I can understand why that was not option for you guys too, but I can't say those reasons are logically backed.

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1 minute ago, Arric II Vysera said:

Like on this thread? Cuz I haven't seen this addressed anywhere. When I brought it up Sisyphus responded with: "this is just obtuse rambling" lol.

Is there a specific post?

Which 2 were you certain would hit? Hedge and Swamp, or Hedge and tCW? Why were you only certain 2 would hit, while the logs supporting your CB says 3?

Here's what I don't buy:

You thought it best to inform a bloc that in your minds planned on hitting you alongside Hedge about your plans. The answer given so far is "This is just obtuse rambling", "Ask Partisan" and "We wanted to hit Hedge first".

Yes, there is gov confirmation that they were secretly collaborating. You only know that they're doing it to position themselves against you, you don't even know if was defensive or offensive.

As far as I can tell you guys came to this conclusion by just confirming whatever biases you already had.

No, there is no gov confirmation that they planning this 4 v 1. Notice how your argument is that there were plans between Rose, HM and Swamp to roll Quack? Two posts prior to this you admitted that this only hints to what you think they did. Its a start, but its not a confirmation.

This again just sounds like confirming whatever biases you already had. You came in to this with the idea that you had a dogpile coming for you, and now that you've attacked, and have instead been dogpiled in response, you believe this was all coming anyway.

Pretty much the only way to know that for sure, was waiting to see if it happened. I can understand why that was not option for you guys too, but I can't say those reasons are logically backed.

Get on topic. Ronny confirmed he was approached a month before we milled up. Our CB isnt what's cracky here. Read up, and come back with a new response.

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