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1 hour ago, Hodor said:

The issue in my eyes is, Quack doesn't recognize that no matter what actions they take to make themselves look passive, being a certain size makes them a target, and if they don't take pro-active steps to point out that, frankly speaking, a close relationship between HM and Swamp is a far bigger threat, than I'm not sure what to tell you.

This is a brutal indictment of everyone in Hedge, Swamp, and Rose (I guess) if this is the line. It's not like we've gone out and signed a bunch of treaties to create some insurmountable numerical advantage (obviously, we've hardly signed squat since the end of NPOLT). 

By arguing that we're so scary because of our size, the admission here is that we play the game well, recruit well, build our nations well, run our alliances well, and that's threatening to everyone else, even when we're just chilling.

Further, exactly what good does pointing out the problematic relationship between Hedge and Swamp actually do, given our whole rationale for entering this war was that they were already conspiring to hit us.

Quack: "hey swamp and hedge, it seems you may be developing the same sort of relationship that suffocated the game before"

Hedge and Swamp: "yes."

Who is that supposed to convince? The one other sphere who also coincidentally joined the fight against us despite having no treaty and no evident justification for entering?

 

Edited by WarriorSoul
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59 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I can tell you straight up what has been going on from Grumpy's point of view.  Swamp came to HM about a month ago, asking about hitting you guys, and as the leader of Grumpy, I said i would only be on board if Rose was also on board, and Rose said no, so Grumpy was out. After about a week, I assumed the plan died since I didnt hear anything more about it. 

And they call Quack a hegemony haha

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1 hour ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:


I can tell you straight up what has been going on from Grumpy's point of view.  Swamp came to HM about a month ago, asking about hitting you guys, and as the leader of Grumpy, I said i would only be on board if Rose was also on board, and Rose said no, so Grumpy was out. After about a week, I assumed the plan died since I didnt hear anything more about it.  

 

So you were only in if you got the entire game to roll one sphere? And we're the big spooky hegemony that is trying to rule the game with an iron fist?

We were happy to just stay in our corner and be competent with our growth programs and recruitments until we found out that you all were planning on rolling us. Thanks for the confirmation though. 

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The Knights Radiant 
Ghostblood Babsk of Foreign Affairs

Journey before Destination.

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Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

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34 minutes ago, WarriorSoul said:

This is a brutal indictment of everyone in Hedge, Swamp, and Rose (I guess) if this is the line. It's not like we've gone out and signed a bunch of treaties to create some insurmountable numerical advantage (obviously, we've hardly signed squat since the end of NPOLT). 

By arguing that we're so scary because of our size, the admission here is that we play the game well, recruit well, build our nations well, run our alliances well, and that's threatening to everyone else, even when we're just chilling.

Further, exactly what good does pointing out the problematic relationship between Hedge and Swamp actually do, given our whole rationale for entering this war was that they were already conspiring to hit us.

Quack: "hey swamp and hedge, it seems you may be developing the same sort of relationship that suffocated the game before"

Hedge and Swamp: "yes."

Who is that supposed to convince? The one other sphere who also coincidentally joined the fight against us despite having no treaty and no evident justification for entering?

 

First of all, if I were speaking for the coalition, do you think I'd be so open about my concerns about its size? I'm speaking as Hodor and Hodor alone, a proponent of a more dynamic and multipolar world.

Second, yes. You are good at the game, that's literally why you're a threat. No one is pussyfooting around that. It is a compliment, we've literally pointed out the competence gap in THIS THREAD.

What good does doing diplomacy do? Um, it's fricking diplomacy dude, convincing others of your world view and forming relationships and coalitions is literally the point... If y'all wanna self isolate, that will be the one way you are in fact similar to IQ. They were ostracized, but instead of seeking normalization they doubled down and further cut themselves off from everyone else all but ensuring they were forever seen as an enemy.

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1 minute ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

Do you really, at this point, with everything that has transpired and all the information that has become publically available, want to take another swing at justifying this crap?

I'm ready.

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2 minutes ago, Hodor said:

First of all, if I were speaking for the coalition, do you think I'd be so open about my concerns about its size? I'm speaking as Hodor and Hodor alone, a proponent of a more dynamic and multipolar world.

Second, yes. You are good at the game, that's literally why you're a threat. No one is pussyfooting around that. It is a compliment, we've literally pointed out the competence gap in THIS THREAD.

What good does doing diplomacy do? Um, it's fricking diplomacy dude, convincing others of your world view and forming relationships and coalitions is literally the point... If y'all wanna self isolate, that will be the one way you are in fact similar to IQ. They were ostracized, but instead of seeking normalization they doubled down and further cut themselves off from everyone else all but ensuring they were forever seen as an enemy.

"competence gap"

1. Are you saying Rose and HM are incompetent? There is no gap there.

2. Your sphere, allies, alliance and coalition by their actions have shown not to subscribe to that multipolar world unless its to your absolute advantage.

3. Do not equate us in any way shape or form to IQ when you have just pulled an IQ-style manouver, and are literally using the term "competence gap" which was Roquentin's go-to argument.

Edited by Prefonteen
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4 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Swamp and Hedge never discussed any offensive actions against Quack.  If it was somebody like Sphinx doing it on his own, that we have no knowledge of.  But we literally never discussed offensive action against Quack with Hedge or Rose, nor would that have been approved by Swamp leadership.  Defensive arrangements, yes, those were obviously discussed.  Discussing going on the offensive literally only happened within the 24 hours before the war started.  My DM's are open if you'd like to discuss further.

Either SRD is lying "Swamp came to HM about a month ago, asking about hitting you guys" 

Or you are. Respect to SRD for not being a !@#$ acting like there was no talks or anything lmao. Calling out all those thick skinned mf trying hard to appear innocent with their statements filled with weasel words.

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4 minutes ago, KingGhost said:

Either SRD is lying "Swamp came to HM about a month ago, asking about hitting you guys" 

Or you are. Respect to SRD for not being a !@#$ acting like there was no talks or anything lmao. Calling out all those thick skinned mf trying hard to appear innocent with their statements filled with weasel words.

I don't know who he talked to or got that from, seems to be some miscommunication.  I know swamp FA folks were not in a chat with him about it.  Was it Sphinx?  I have no idea - but certainly wasn't anybody with authority to speak for Swamp.  We internally were not in favor of any offensive action, even with everyone else on board.

Edited by Lord Tyrion
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3 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

I've not taken the time to read this thread, just noticed you pinged people (myself included) in your server to the part highlighted.  Again, I will clarify what I said that there was no planned offensive strike against Quack that Swamp leadership was aware of.  If you think you have evidence otherwise, I'll be happy to take a look.  We recognized a mutual threat and discussed mutual defense.  That was it.  If your side hadn't militarized, we'd all still be business as usual.  

And I don't know why you're casting stones in a glass house.  You literally asked us to stand aside while you wipe our treatied partner but are mad we are defending ourselves. 

Your coalition ally confirmed you approached him just 3 posts up. All the rest is absolutely moot.

Any movement on our part followed the receipt of knowledge about your impending coalition. The ball starts there.

Edit: 

Here's your evidence.

Edited by Prefonteen
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2 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

"competence gap"

1. Are you saying Rose and HM are incompetent? There is no gap there.

2. Your sphere, allies, alliance and coalition by their actions have shown not to subscribe to that multipolar world unless its to your absolute advantage.

3. Do not equate us in any way shape or form to IQ when you have just pulled an IQ-style manouver, and are literally using the term "competence gap" which was Roquentin's go-to argument.

1. Competence is a spectrum, you can be more competent than someone, that doesn't make them incompetent. I think it's fair to say the wealth of knowledge and experience in t$ and TKR is substantial. I think it was a valid point when IQ made it about all of us. Not everything they said was untrue.

2. I think I agreed to a certain degree in my response to Shiho?

3. I didn't equate you to IQ, I said that should you choose to isolate yourselves, as WarriorSoul seemed to be getting at, you'd be in the same position as IQ. That's a radically different stance than comparing you to IQ.

You treating my post, which was responding to specific points WarriorSoul made, as somehow hostile to you and all you love is not conducive to an actual discussion.

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1 minute ago, Prefonteen said:

Your coalition ally confirmed you approached him just 3 posts up. All the rest is absolutely moot.

Any movement on our part followed the receipt of knowledge about your impending coalition. The ball starts there.

Again, no idea who he talked to, to get that impression from that we wanted to go on the offensive.  Somebody may have well talked to him about it - it would have been without the knowledge or direction of swamp leadership though.  I can't comment on something I have no idea about, outside of saying I have no idea about it.  That conversation never happened.  The server w/ them that we used for our war against TCW was inactive and dead.  We weren't collaborating with them - simply, if Quack comes for one of us, we got each other's back.  

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2 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

I've not taken the time to read this thread, just noticed you pinged people (myself included) in your server to the part highlighted.  Again, I will clarify what I said that there was no planned offensive strike against Quack that Swamp leadership was aware of.  If you think you have evidence otherwise, I'll be happy to take a look.  We recognized a mutual threat and discussed mutual defense.  That was it.  If your side hadn't militarized, we'd all still be business as usual.  

And I don't know why you're casting stones in a glass house.  You literally asked us to stand aside while you wipe our treatied partner but are mad we are defending ourselves. 

May I direct you to this post which is only a few above yours in this very thread? Unless you are accusing Ronnie of not knowing basics as a leader of another primary sphere in your coalition?

Also, tag, you are it! When TCW signed with &, we were repetitively told it would be temporary, not formally part of Swamp, etc. You wanted to give them time to rebuild after you smashed them. But now it is "our treatied ally." Huh.

We approached you after Rose all but confirmed their intent to enter, partially out of respect, and partially to keep you abreast of our plans. Which is what we promised we would do. Again, providing information and trusting one another. Something about balanced wars and new metas, instead of dogpiles and namecalling. Good to see we are back to the old way so quickly.

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4 minutes ago, Hodor said:

1. Competence is a spectrum, you can be more competent than someone, that doesn't make them incompetent. I think it's fair to say the wealth of knowledge and experience in t$ and TKR is substantial. I think it was a valid point when IQ made it about all of us. Not everything they said was untrue.

2. I think I agreed to a certain degree in my response to Shiho?

3. I didn't equate you to IQ, I said that should you choose to isolate yourselves, as WarriorSoul seemed to be getting at, you'd be in the same position as IQ. That's a radically different stance than comparing you to IQ.

You treating my post, which was responding to specific points WarriorSoul made, as somehow hostile to you and all you love is not conducive to an actual discussion.

We have not chosen to isolate ourselves. We attempted to limit our growth to satisfy your desire for a multisphere environment.

You then plotted a gamewide hit on us for good measure. We responded, and here we are.

So yeah uhh.... I don't know what you want us to do, thank you for preventing hEgEmOnY with your buddies?

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15 minutes ago, Hodor said:

First of all, if I were speaking for the coalition, do you think I'd be so open about my concerns about its size? I'm speaking as Hodor and Hodor alone, a proponent of a more dynamic and multipolar world.

Second, yes. You are good at the game, that's literally why you're a threat. No one is pussyfooting around that. It is a compliment, we've literally pointed out the competence gap in THIS THREAD.

What good does doing diplomacy do? Um, it's fricking diplomacy dude, convincing others of your world view and forming relationships and coalitions is literally the point... If y'all wanna self isolate, that will be the one way you are in fact similar to IQ. They were ostracized, but instead of seeking normalization they doubled down and further cut themselves off from everyone else all but ensuring they were forever seen as an enemy.

1. That's fair. I didn't actually anticipate anyone in your coalition would be upset having an enormous numerical advantage, so I figured you weren't speaking for them.

2. Calling "the competence gap" a threat doesn't make it any less asinine. Rather than try and emulate it, the goal is to destroy it. Am I getting that part right?

3. Yes, diplomacy is good, lest you think I disagree. My point was what good does "trying to convince others of our world view" do when their worldview necessitates neutralizing any threat we pose to them, the plans for which have been confirmed in this very thread.

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3 minutes ago, Hodor said:

1. Competence

This is the silliest argument and I wish it would disappear forever from these forums. Roquentin used this line so many times, so often, it's sad.

This game involves logging in once or twice a day during peak wartime, otherwise sitting on your hands and logging in once a week during peace. There is no intangible quality making t$ a threat other than their stats, please stay away from the ethereal Mr. Hodor, you're far better than parroting Roquentin.

 

For further thoughts please refer to:

 

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1 minute ago, Benfro said:

May I direct you to this post which is only a few above yours in this very thread? Unless you are accusing Ronnie of not knowing basics as a leader of another primary sphere in your coalition?

Also, tag, you are it! When TCW signed with &, we were repetitively told it would be temporary, not formally part of Swamp, etc. You wanted to give them time to rebuild after you smashed them. But now it is "our treatied ally." Huh.

We approached you after Rose all but confirmed their intent to enter, partially out of respect, and partially to keep you abreast of our plans. Which is what we promised we would do. Again, providing information and trusting one another. Something about balanced wars and new metas, instead of dogpiles and namecalling. Good to see we are back to the old way so quickly.

I don't know where Ronnie got his info.  Not accusing him of anything - if he heard or talked to somebody, it wasn't at the knowledge/direction of our leadership.  And who's doing name calling?  There is nothing going back to old ways.  No reason to not be civil here.  

Yes our intention with TCW was/is to help them get back on their feet.  Their sphere wasn't viable and they needed time to recover.  But at the same time, they did have an M-level treaty with us, so they were protected while they do so.  We are obligated to defend them.  

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