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Are swastikas ok here?


Nitrox
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Hi all!

The leaderboard of nations by largest GDP per capita has recently featured a nation with a Nazi flag (red, white circle, black swastika...you know).

What do you think of that?

Does P&W have a policy on that?

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24 minutes ago, Ragnarok8085 said:

I mean, Swastikas are and have been used for the last few thousand years or so. Only Reason its frowned upon is because of a period of about 12 years or so '33-'45

...which was a very significant period of world history and is honestly not a justification for using it here, no?

The Terms of Use have this to say:

  • Your Contributions do not include any offensive comments that are connected to race, national origin, gender, sexual preference, or physical handicap.

That arguably includes swastikas etc.

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27 minutes ago, Ragnarok8085 said:

I mean, Swastikas are and have been used for the last few thousand years or so. Only Reason its frowned upon is because of a period of about 12 years or so '33-'45

This is not an answer to his question. What kind of bs response is saying that it used to be used for better imagery, especially when he describes a real nazi flag.

2 minutes ago, Nitrox said:

...which was a very significant period of world history and is honestly not a justification for using it here, no?

True.
It is banned and if you see it report it.

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10 hours ago, Nitrox said:

Hi all!

The leaderboard of nations by largest GDP per capita has recently featured a nation with a Nazi flag (red, white circle, black swastika...you know).

What do you think of that?

Does P&W have a policy on that?

From the game rules...

Quote

In-game Communication

All forms of in-game communication, including but not limited to, messaging, war declaration reasons, alliance announcements, leader, city, or nation names, and nation and alliance descriptions must be appropriate. Vulgar language, mean comments, Nazism or Nazi related names and titles, Terrorist organizations related names and titles etc. are not allowed and will result in your nation receiving a strike.

So no, what you describe is not permissible.

9 hours ago, Ragnarok8085 said:

I mean, Swastikas are and have been used for the last few thousand years or so. Only Reason its frowned upon is because of a period of about 12 years or so '33-'45

9 hours ago, Nitrox said:

...which was a very significant period of world history and is honestly not a justification for using it here, no?

The Terms of Use have this to say:

  • Your Contributions do not include any offensive comments that are connected to race, national origin, gender, sexual preference, or physical handicap.

That arguably includes swastikas etc.

The game rules don't seem to explicitly ban the use of swastikas, which may be an oversight by Alex or consideration for the fact that the swastika isn't just a Nazi symbol and is a significant positive symbol of many religions and cultures pre-dating Nazism. The Nazi regime's appropriation of the swastika pales in comparison to its positive use as a symbol of good fortune in Asian religions and cultures, and a symbol of strength by the Vikings (which I believe is where the Nazis' inspiration for its use comes from). Compared to the swastika's history, the Nazi regime was a speck in time, just 0.001% the swastika's run. Even including the ongoing use of the swastika for Nazism, it's still a mere 0.007% of the history of the swastika and its positive symbolism.

EDIT: Second time I see @Hime-sama downvoting fact based responses. Care to explain yourself?

Edited by Zephyr
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21 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

EDIT: Second time I see @Hime-sama downvoting honest responses. Care to explain yourself?

If you're asking "will I debate this with you in this thread", the answer is no.

Your attempt to straw man and portray the swastika as a positive symbol is actually vile.

 

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59 minutes ago, Hime-sama said:

If you're asking "will I debate this with you in this thread", the answer is no.

Your attempt to straw man and portray the swastika as a positive symbol is actually vile.

I'm not sure what straw man you're encountering or what there is to debate about my response as I tried to keep it to the facts; I responded to the OP's enquiry, responded to other posters to clarify that the swastika is historically significant as a positive symbol pre-dating Nazism and offered speculation as to why Alex may have chosen to explicitly ban Nazism while forgoing any mention of swastikas in the game rules. Unless you're suggesting the swastika does not predate Nazism and/or you are unaware of its use in religions and cultures outside Nazism I'm not sure what you're suggesting needs to be debated.

Edited by Zephyr
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19 hours ago, Ragnarok8085 said:

I mean, Swastikas are and have been used for the last few thousand years or so. Only Reason its frowned upon is because of a period of about 12 years or so '33-'45

I wanna punch everyone who says that.

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16 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

If you're asking "will I debate this with you in this thread", the answer is no.

Your attempt to straw man and portray the swastika as a positive symbol is actually vile.

 

Yeah it's not like over a quarter of the world's population view it as a positive religious symbol or that it covers hundreds of archaeological sites from Europe, to India, to the Americas

wouldnt that be ridiculous

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15 hours ago, Zephyr said:

I'm not sure what straw man you're encountering or what there is to debate about my response as I tried to keep it to the facts; I responded to the OP's enquiry, responded to other posters to clarify that the swastika is historically significant as a positive symbol pre-dating Nazism and offered speculation as to why Alex may have chosen to explicitly ban Nazism while forgoing any mention of swastikas in the game rules. Unless you're suggesting the swastika does not predate Nazism and/or you are unaware of its use in religions and cultures outside Nazism I'm not sure what you're suggesting needs to be debated.

It was your final response that I disagreed with. The swastika is not primarily a positive symbol, and using time as a metric to measure positiveness is a straw man, the impact of the symbol's use, and what it represents, matters so much more. I reckon the reason swastikas are not explicitly mentioned in the game rules, is because they fall in with "nazism," which is stated to be against the game rules. If you think icons, gestures, or the like cannot change in meaning, then you are sorely mistaken. 

Tip: including facts to an argument, does not in fact, make the argument correct. You wanna hear a fact? Over 50 million people died in WW2, thanks to the people flying the swastika on their banner.

You are correct on one thing, there is no debate here.

37 minutes ago, Jangles said:

Yeah it's not like over a quarter of the world's population view it as a positive religious symbol or that it covers hundreds of archaeological sites from Europe, to India, to the Americas

wouldnt that be ridiculous

And the other 3 quarters?

You can also read the above.

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12 minutes ago, Jangles said:

How many people do you think live in Europe and the US?

How many people do you think don't know of the holocaust? It's certainly most of the world, and far more than the 1bnish hindus around for whom it's a religious symbol.

 

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3 hours ago, Jangles said:

How many people do you think live in Europe and the US?

Europe, Russia, US, Canada, and plenty of uninvolved nations know about the atrocities. You also have this misconception that population matters as a metric either; seeing that you ignored the rest of what was written, I will emphasize again that 50+ million people died because of those bearing the swastika. Perhaps you should address the main point of the argument, instead of trying to pick at details that don't even matter.

Edited by Hime-sama
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The swastika is a legitimate religious symbol for billions of people and shouldn't be banned because in your western-centric view of the world you've only ever seen it in a history text book associated with Nazis. Not everybody who plays this game is from the same place as you or holds the same religious views. You're unknowingly being bigoted towards pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Orthodox Christians, Native Americans, and I'm sure a dozen other religions. We're talking about swastikas not the Nazi flag. If I grew up learning that the Swastika was an ancient symbol for good weather and I want to keep one as a good luck charm or feature one on a flag in a video game I shouldn't have to worry about some smug westerner squinting his eyes at me as if I'm automatically a freaking Nazi.

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40 minutes ago, Hime-sama said:

Europe, Russia, US, Canada, and plenty of uninvolved nations know about the atrocities. You also have this misconception that population matters as a metric either; seeing that you ignored the rest of what was written, I will emphasize again that 50 million people died because of those bearing the swastika. Perhaps you should address the main point of the argument, instead of trying to pick at details that don't even matter.

Well to be fair, this game is still allowing the use of symbols that have been used by nations, that have a far greater death count than Nazi Germany. 
As an example you free to use the flag of the British empire, even thought their death count might have been as high as 150 million people, that was rakked up doing the centuries of colonial rule. 
And communist symbols used by the Soviet Union and China is still also being well used, it not long ago we had a new alliance based on Stalin's SMERSH agency. 
Plus giving Germany the blame for the entirety of the European theaters death count is also a bit to much. Most historiens assign 
17-21 million deaths to Nazi Germany, still an absolute horrific amount without a doubt, that our brains have a hard time to process. 
But we still have comparable atrocities which we are free to use symbols from. 
We even had more recent atrocities, that we can use from like that of the heavens gate, who's only reason it didn't kill more people was because it didn't have the means to do so. 
As i see it, the main reason Nazisme is singled out, is because it can cause legal trouble in some places. Rather then the horrific actions commited by Nazi Germany in it selfeves. 
And why also terrorist organizations have been singled out by the rules, even thought their death count and crimes against humanity is no where near that of Nazi Germany. 

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50 minutes ago, Jangles said:

The swastika is a legitimate religious symbol for billions of people and shouldn't be banned because in your western-centric view of the world you've only ever seen it in a history text book associated with Nazis. Not everybody who plays this game is from the same place as you or holds the same religious views. You're unknowingly being bigoted towards pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Orthodox Christians, Native Americans, and I'm sure a dozen other religions. We're talking about swastikas not the Nazi flag. If I grew up learning that the Swastika was an ancient symbol for good weather and I want to keep one as a good luck charm or feature one on a flag in a video game I shouldn't have to worry about some smug westerner squinting his eyes at me as if I'm automatically a freaking Nazi.

It's also illegal in much of the world, by the way, reminder on that too. That's the real biggest reason most websites ban it.

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5 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

It was your final response that I disagreed with. The swastika is not primarily a positive symbol, and using time as a metric to measure positiveness is a straw man, the impact of the symbol's use, and what it represents, matters so much more. I reckon the reason swastikas are not explicitly mentioned in the game rules, is because they fall in with "nazism," which is stated to be against the game rules. If you think icons, gestures, or the like cannot change in meaning, then you are sorely mistaken. 

Tip: including facts to an argument, does not in fact, make the argument correct. You wanna hear a fact? Over 50 million people died in WW2, thanks to the people flying the swastika on their banner.

You are correct on one thing, there is no debate here.

And the other 3 quarters?

You can also read the above.

That's not a straw man, my speculation about the swastika's absence from the game rules was included as a response to the preceding thread discussion (which I quoted). I indicated that the swastika has been for most of its history a positive symbol throughout many religions and cultures, and that it in fact remains in use today as a positive symbol. These are not inaccurate statements (unless you intend to argue that you think the Nazis invented the swastika), and they were related to the discussion I was responding to. You are however making your own straw man by suggesting I made the argument that the swastika is "primarily a positive symbol" as this suggests a valuation on its modern standing in an unknown context. I've only gone as far as acknowledging its positive history and continued positive use, and have not made the argument as to how it might primarily be interpreted as that was neither the point I was making or interested in debating (despite your attempt to politicise the thread and make me your patsy).

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12 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

Europe, Russia, US, Canada, and plenty of uninvolved nations know about the atrocities. You also have this misconception that population matters as a metric either; seeing that you ignored the rest of what was written, I will emphasize again that 50+ million people died because of those bearing the swastika. Perhaps you should address the main point of the argument, instead of trying to pick at details that don't even matter.

More people died by those bearing hammer and sickle in gulags in Siberia, Cambodia, China, north Korea and many other countries across the world. Only in "great leap forward"  tens of millions died in China,  a quarter of Cambodian killed by Khmer rouge, I don't even want to describe criminal acts of Lenin and Stalin. Certainly, the victims of communism are all around the world, not only in Europe.

Why are you not opposed to communist symbols?

12 hours ago, Jangles said:

The swastika is a legitimate religious symbol for billions of people and shouldn't be banned because in your western-centric view of the world you've only ever seen it in a history text book associated with Nazis. Not everybody who plays this game is from the same place as you or holds the same religious views. You're unknowingly being bigoted towards pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Orthodox Christians, Native Americans, and I'm sure a dozen other religions. We're talking about swastikas not the Nazi flag. If I grew up learning that the Swastika was an ancient symbol for good weather and I want to keep one as a good luck charm or feature one on a flag in a video game I shouldn't have to worry about some smug westerner squinting his eyes at me as if I'm automatically a freaking Nazi.

I also have to add that it even was used in mosques as an Islamic symbol.

Edited by Francoist
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As a practicing Theravada Buddhist, the swastika is used to represent the Buddha's footprints. In fact you can still see such symbols (in gold) in Thailand, Laos, and other Southeastern Asian countries that have large Buddhist populations. Unfortunately the symbol was hijacked by the Nazi Party so I can understand whey it's bannable. 

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14 hours ago, Zephyr said:

1. I indicated that the swastika has been for most of its history a positive symbol throughout many religions and cultures, and that it in fact remains in use today as a positive symbol. These are not inaccurate statements

2. (unless you intend to argue that you think the Nazis invented the swastika)

3. and they were related to the discussion I was responding to. You are however making your own straw man by suggesting I made the argument that the swastika is "primarily a positive symbol" as this suggests a valuation on its modern standing in an unknown context. I've only gone as far as acknowledging its positive history and continued positive use, and have not made the argument as to how it might primarily be interpreted as that was neither the point I was making or interested in debating

4. (despite your attempt to politicise the thread and make me your patsy).

1. Those are irrelevant facts as explained in previous replies (not just my own).

2. Incorrect assumption. (the second time you've done this, btw)

On 9/21/2020 at 12:32 AM, Zephyr said:

The Nazi regime's appropriation of the swastika pales in comparison to its positive use as a symbol of good fortune in Asian religions and cultures, and a symbol of strength by the Vikings. Compared to the swastika's history, the Nazi regime was a speck in time, just 0.001% the swastika's run. Even including the ongoing use of the swastika for Nazism, it's still a mere 0.007% of the history of the swastika and its positive symbolism.

EDIT: Second time I see @Hime-sama downvoting fact based responses. Care to explain yourself?

3. You go beyond just acknowledging its positive history and "continued positive use." Reading the highlighted portions, it's very clear in your wording that you consider the swastika a positive symbol. That entire paragraph portrays the swastika in a positive light, using time as a way to compare the two usages, mostly ignoring the negative impact that occurred in such small time span, seemingly in an attempt to defend its existence in the game; Which if allowed, would give plausible deniability to any [fascist] that wants to claim the symbol is strictly religious/cultural.

4. You wanted me to respond when I did not originally want to, if anything, you wanted me to be your patsy.

In any case, this will be my final reply here, if you wanna talk on Discord, by all means.

Edited by Hime-sama
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I see we're going to have to start dissecting things...

7 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

1. Those are irrelevant facts as explained in previous replies (not just my own).

It is relevant because it's a response to other posts already discussing the matter...on a discussion forum. I'm not sure if you're honestly suggesting that we're not free to discuss things because you're opinionated and that continuing to discuss things you don't want discussed constitutes a straw man (you accused me of this when you were unhappy about my participation in the discussion earlier in the thread).

7 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

2. Incorrect assumption. (the second time you've done this, btw)

More like a hint for you to explain yourself because I don't understand your position, it doesn't make any sense and you aren't making it make sense (that is one explanation I came up with, and yes, the second time I've hinted that you should let us in on what you're thinking). Please explain.

7 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

 3. You go beyond just acknowledging its positive history and "continued positive use." Reading the highlighted portions, it's very clear in your wording that you consider the swastika a positive symbol. That entire paragraph portrays the swastika in a positive light, using time as a way to compare the two usages...

Okay, so this is more insightful. You seem to (erroneously) believe the swastika may only possess one value without consideration for context, and believe the Nazis have the most legitimate claim in determining that singular value (seemingly without regard for 1.7 billion people whose religions and cultures practice otherwise, predating Nazism). This is a simplistic, ignorant, and bigoted Eurocentric view. The swastika is both a positive symbol (in OG form) and a negative symbol (the Nazi remix), it is evident by its use by various religions and cultures (positive use) and use by Nazi groups (negative use). If you legitimately want to debate whether Hindus and Buddhists exist, that's not a debate I'm willing to take on.

7 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

...mostly ignoring the negative impact that occurred in such small time span...

I didn't think it necessary to outline the evils of Nazism in a thread with an OP asking incredulously if Nazism is accepted in the game. I mean who doesn't know about the Nazis, right? Also it's weird to me you would assume people are Nazis unless they explicitly tell you otherwise, but I guess you approach life a little differently.

7 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

...seemingly in an attempt to defend its existence in the game; Which if allowed, would give plausible deniability to any "fascist" that wants to claim the symbol is strictly religious/cultural.

I hadn't argued for or against swastikas being permitted in the game, I speculated about the reason Alex omitted swastikas from the game rules...And you accused me of a straw man.

If it gives you peace of mind, I will say that I hate Nazis. I will further suggest it might be easiest to just ban swastikas outright instead of trying to discern the context of its use when reviewing swastika reports (I don't know, maybe Alex already does this).

7 hours ago, Hime-sama said:

4. You wanted me to respond when I did not originally want to, if anything, you wanted me to be your patsy.

In any case, this will be my final reply here, if you wanna talk on Discord, by all means.

You're the one that downvoted me, then when I asked for you to offer an explanation you responded with...

On 9/21/2020 at 1:08 PM, Hime-sama said:

If you're asking "will I debate this with you in this thread", the answer is no.

Your attempt to straw man and portray the swastika as a positive symbol is actually vile.

I would argue your reactionary and misguided postings are vile.

Edited by Zephyr
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