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Replacing beige with a beige bank


Prefontaine
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Similar to what I said in this post here,

Is this supposed to go hand-in-hand with the other changes? Combining beige bank with reserve units, for example, makes defense so immensely powerful. Whenever defense is too powerful, like what @Shiho Nishizumi mentioned earlier, it crushes the incentive to start a war. Aggressors are taking on way too much risk if defense is too strong as there is a political cost to being the aggressor.

We already have a 6 month NAP in place. Knightfall technically didn't even end with an NAP, but still had a long period of peace following it (could be wrong here, don't quite remember). Alliances need to stockpile resources to fund their war efforts. It's why wars don't last 2 weeks anymore like they did when this game first started out. Now, when tanks were buffed recently and planes nerfed, alliances then had to make sure to stockpile more steel. 

The combination of steel costs, political costs of aggression, buffing of defense (and therefore weakening of aggression), stockpiling behavior, and rampant changes (whoever wants to start the next war is going to have to consider being the guinea pig for this plethora of untested changes) is just going to stifle aggressors from starting wars. And again, like what Shiho said earlier, that'll just lead to a more stagnant and boring game. 

I'm not saying there should be zero changes to the war system. You may indeed want to help people get out of perma-pinning situations. But it's unclear what the effect of all these various suggestions are going to be when combined. For example, it's been implied that two of the previous suggestions are already going to happen, yet we haven't even been able to test them yet, let alone see them on the live server and judge them before moving onto another suggestion.

I know the player base tends to beat up Alex about a lack of updates, but maybe we should slow back down a little bit, lol.

Edited by Valkorion Baratheon
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1 hour ago, Prefontaine said:

The simple system allowed for nations to never be able to recover once zero'd out. It's really not that complicated, and we shouldn't hide from changes that are more complicated. Azaghul is also in favor of most aspects of this system. Azaghul stated they would give it a more detailed posted when they had the time. 

Note that azaghuls own suggestion was actually my suggestion which was a scarf suggestion with added crap to it from aza that are currently the parts on the test server people removed.

This is to say, he added the parts people don't want, the parts people do, came from people not him. 

Hence I say again, he, like this @Grave fellow who I guarantee has never actually organized a full scale war for any alliance let alone his 300 man behemoth, is out of touch and lacks any ability to see a big picture, focusing on small, wholly irrelevant details. Grave himself in particular, clearly just straight up lacks any actual significant experience. 

A solution is not good merely because it solves the problem it set to solve. If it solves that problem but creates a myraid of new ones, it is a bad solution.

And frankly as Valk said, this needs to slow the hell down. There's a very serious case of Mitt Romney here with the constant flip flop pancaking and sudden changing of directions. 

The parts on the test server disliked are known, their wanted removal is known, that the rest of it is essentially what has been asked for for years is known. There is no further need for YET ANOTHER pivot to something else. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

The simple system allowed for nations to never be able to recover once zero'd out. It's really not that complicated, and we shouldn't hide from changes that are more complicated. Azaghul is also in favor of most aspects of this system. Azaghul stated they would give it a more detailed posted when they had the time. 

I swear I made a post earlier in this thread but maybe not.

Basically great creativity on the suggestion, it looks like you closed a lot of earlier loopholes people mentioned. The bad piece is that this puts a lot more "favor" towards the defender than it does the attacker in my mind, and I don't see a way to avoid that due the nature of a beige bank. Giving complete control of rebuilding time to the losers of the initial blitz just seems, in my mind, to create a strategy of "wait to get your beige bank and we all go beige at once to rebuild and blitz." Then, despite only having a 12 turn window to leave beige before it expires, you basically have the ability to "counter-blitz" and then that pattern continues until someone runs out of rebuild resources.

That doesn't seem like a better alternative to what we see now. With the proposed changes on the test server, the attackers can at least force someone out of the fight WHILE they rebuild for a set amount of time. Beige is guaranteed no matter what (unless you're an aggressor but hopefully that gets redacted @Alex ). I think Alex's original idea for beige, with a few tweaks now that we've had time to see how it works, would be a better fit for the game than the Beige Bank.

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5 hours ago, Akuryo said:

Note that azaghuls own suggestion was actually my suggestion which was a scarf suggestion with added crap to it from aza that are currently the parts on the test server people removed.

This is to say, he added the parts people don't want, the parts people do, came from people not him. 

Hence I say again, he, like this @Grave fellow who I guarantee has never actually organized a full scale war for any alliance let alone his 300 man behemoth, is out of touch and lacks any ability to see a big picture, focusing on small, wholly irrelevant details. Grave himself in particular, clearly just straight up lacks any actual significant experience. 

A solution is not good merely because it solves the problem it set to solve. If it solves that problem but creates a myraid of new ones, it is a bad solution.

And frankly as Valk said, this needs to slow the hell down. There's a very serious case of Mitt Romney here with the constant flip flop pancaking and sudden changing of directions. 

The parts on the test server disliked are known, their wanted removal is known, that the rest of it is essentially what has been asked for for years is known. There is no further need for YET ANOTHER pivot to something else. 

 

 

 

See this just proves my point, I'd never have to solo plot out an entire war for TI, I have a very competent MilCom Team whom I deliver instruction too and we all then instruct the alliance 

 

  It's a pyramid of instruction of simple orders, that when most people complete it , a cohesive and complex strategy is unfolded across the entire system. 

  You say I lack experience yet you are the one here complaining about being inable to properly lead a much smaller AA. 

  On that note, it takes experience to recognize experience, there are many transferable skills and bits of knowledge you can bring here from other games, and when it comes too PVP Nation Sims, managing the war effort of a 5 year long global is just the tip of the iceberg for me. 

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Also this is one of the few recent changes that doesn't benefit my own alliance/Sphere, so I feel like I can give my opinion on it without it being claimed I support it only to benefit TI or Swamp as a whole.

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34 minutes ago, Grave said:

 

See this just proves my point, I'd never have to solo plot out an entire war for TI, I have a very competent MilCom Team whom I deliver instruction too and we all then instruct the alliance 

 

  It's a pyramid of instruction of simple orders, that when most people complete it , a cohesive and complex strategy is unfolded across the entire system. 

  You say I lack experience yet you are the one here complaining about being inable to properly lead a much smaller AA. 

  On that note, it takes experience to recognize experience, there are many transferable skills and bits of knowledge you can bring here from other games, and when it comes too PVP Nation Sims, managing the war effort of a 5 year long global is just the tip of the iceberg for me. 

Your point is irrelevant. Your milcom frankly, is not competent. You, it's head, is not competent. You would not be competent with an alliance like the federation in size. Even if you threw shiho, Theo, myself, sketchy and DtC into The Immortals milcom, it would be a pain in the ass. 

Mind you, I can't even make my own sheets, and yet am more qualified and capable at the job. 

Furthermore, your lack of experience shiws again because you fundamentally do not understand how many people are needed calling shots.

TI has a similar tiering to my alliance when it entered GW 14 and you'd be fighting similar opponents to us. My alliance had 30ish members and two good milcom personnel. It was able to hold roughly 10:1 numerical odds back, bloodying them severely, for 10 days. 

They're gonna have the same city count, similar WC levels, and similar individual member competency to what you had. Which means that, TI, at 300 members, would need 20 milcom personnel of equivalent caliber to myself and anneal. Considering were starting off bad from the top already, you are not going to come even close to that.

Now to further draw extrapolation from that and prove my point again that very few alliances have the number and competency of staff to do this. CoTL has about 80 members and would need about 5, we'll just call it 6 capable staff. Including low gov.staff to cover more micromanage tasks like individual wars and counters, there are 9. Including members who could be promoted and are capable of such, 12. 

But CoTL isn't TI. It's lead.and run by, more experienced players, and attracts more experienced players than other alliances would because of this. 

As a result, and as made in my original point, it's very easy for CoTL to exceed it's requirement by double. The same.is true for all I listed, TKR, Syndi and Rose as well. 

TI is big, but it lacks experience in full own wars, in massive Blitzes, counterattacks strategic planning, even it's leader is relatively new to the game by comparison for his neighborhood.

And as a result, TI, despite big, will have trouble attracting the same caliber of staff as others, let alone the sheer number they'd need. And training, is difficult without bullets flying to make the lesson stick. 

You are inexperienced, and incompetent because of it and because of your sheer refusal to acknowledge that fact. You are not the caliber of Boyce, of DtC, of Shiho, not even of me, and I'm basically the goddamn gateway here it's not the top of mount Everest my friend. 

See the bigger picture. Stop staring at the surface of everything, and look deeper. If you can't do that, go to a micro, and spare your alliance the trouble, because having someone who can't even appreciate the difficulty of their task will do them only harm.

And lastly, spare me your shallow sighted bullcrap. 

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57 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Your point is irrelevant. Your milcom frankly, is not competent. You, it's head, is not competent. You would not be competent with an alliance like the federation in size. Even if you threw shiho, Theo, myself, sketchy and DtC into The Immortals milcom, it would be a pain in the ass. 

Mind you, I can't even make my own sheets, and yet am more qualified and capable at the job. 

Furthermore, your lack of experience shiws again because you fundamentally do not understand how many people are needed calling shots.

TI has a similar tiering to my alliance when it entered GW 14 and you'd be fighting similar opponents to us. My alliance had 30ish members and two good milcom personnel. It was able to hold roughly 10:1 numerical odds back, bloodying them severely, for 10 days. 

They're gonna have the same city count, similar WC levels, and similar individual member competency to what you had. Which means that, TI, at 300 members, would need 20 milcom personnel of equivalent caliber to myself and anneal. Considering were starting off bad from the top already, you are not going to come even close to that.

Now to further draw extrapolation from that and prove my point again that very few alliances have the number and competency of staff to do this. CoTL has about 80 members and would need about 5, we'll just call it 6 capable staff. Including low gov.staff to cover more micromanage tasks like individual wars and counters, there are 9. Including members who could be promoted and are capable of such, 12. 

But CoTL isn't TI. It's lead.and run by, more experienced players, and attracts more experienced players than other alliances would because of this. 

As a result, and as made in my original point, it's very easy for CoTL to exceed it's requirement by double. The same.is true for all I listed, TKR, Syndi and Rose as well. 

TI is big, but it lacks experience in full own wars, in massive Blitzes, counterattacks strategic planning, even it's leader is relatively new to the game by comparison for his neighborhood.

And as a result, TI, despite big, will have trouble attracting the same caliber of staff as others, let alone the sheer number they'd need. And training, is difficult without bullets flying to make the lesson stick. 

You are inexperienced, and incompetent because of it and because of your sheer refusal to acknowledge that fact. You are not the caliber of Boyce, of DtC, of Shiho, not even of me, and I'm basically the goddamn gateway here it's not the top of mount Everest my friend. 

See the bigger picture. Stop staring at the surface of everything, and look deeper. If you can't do that, go to a micro, and spare your alliance the trouble, because having someone who can't even appreciate the difficulty of their task will do them only harm.

And lastly, spare me your shallow sighted bullcrap. 

Your very wrong assumptions are just making you look angry, do you even have any evidence to back up those claims of incompetency? 

TI does have 20~ MilCom Staff, the same ratio applies that if you are going to find two willing and competent MilCom people in an alliance of 30 that I could find 20 in an alliance of 300. 

"You have to be Boyce tier MilCom to manage 15 people " you're kidding right? 

I think you greatly overestimate your intelligence, pretending only a few elite players can manage to do MilCom when really its something that can be taught in much less time than the average university course. 

For example; the last global war, it took us 2 weeks to integrate the strategies created during the first 6 months into our system.

There's a need for high levels of activity, a desire to learn and inherently enjoying the Pvp aspect of the game, everything else can be taught 

Edited by Grave
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3 hours ago, Grave said:

Your very wrong assumptions are just making you look angry, do you even have any evidence to back up those claims of incompetency? 

TI does have 20~ MilCom Staff, the same ratio applies that if you are going to find two willing and competent MilCom people in an alliance of 30 that I could find 20 in an alliance of 300. 

"You have to be Boyce tier MilCom to manage 15 people " you're kidding right? 

I think you greatly overestimate your intelligence, pretending only a few elite players can manage to do MilCom when really its something that can be taught in much less time than the average university course. 

For example; the last global war, it took us 2 weeks to integrate the strategies created during the first 6 months into our system.

There's a need for high levels of activity, a desire to learn and inherently enjoying the Pvp aspect of the game, everything else can be taught 

Ya can't teach people who don't actually want to learn.

You, do not actually want to learn, because you believe you already know, regardless of if even the people literally the best at your job disagree. And no, no I do not mean me. 😛

And, no one accusing you of supporting this because it benefits TI? The claim, infact, is that it wounds TI the most grievously, as it is currently capable of summoning 0/20 required personnel just to function at a high level with the now gone old mechanics. 

Not that you care of course, because you'd have to admit that it's the case at all to ever change it.

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14 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Ya can't teach people who don't actually want to learn.

You, do not actually want to learn, because you believe you already know, regardless of if even the people literally the best at your job disagree. And no, no I do not mean me. 😛

And, no one accusing you of supporting this because it benefits TI? The claim, infact, is that it wounds TI the most grievously, as it is currently capable of summoning 0/20 required personnel just to function at a high level with the now gone old mechanics. 

Not that you care of course, because you'd have to admit that it's the case at all to ever change it.

Im telling you that you are greatly overestimating how hard it is to manage 15 people. 

And you misunderstood my comment, as with the city score update and beige update had benefited TI greatly I didn't state my support for it, 

 

this is an update that would be detrimental to my Alliance compared to the lack of beige, and I still support it, because its a good idea and gives people getting hit the hardest a fighting chance, and that should speak volumes in itself. 

Either way, I'm not squabbling with you on this anymore, I made my point. 

Edited by Grave
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On 7/13/2020 at 6:04 PM, Valkorion Baratheon said:

I'm not saying there should be zero changes to the war system. You may indeed want to help people get out of perma-pinning situations. But it's unclear what the effect of all these various suggestions are going to be when combined. For example, it's been implied that two of the previous suggestions are already going to happen, yet we haven't even been able to test them yet, let alone see them on the live server and judge them before moving onto another suggestion.

The lack of proper direction and knowledge renders any seemingly noble intentions meaningless.

On 7/13/2020 at 6:46 PM, Akuryo said:

The parts on the test server disliked are known, their wanted removal is known, that the rest of it is essentially what has been asked for for years is known. There is no further need for YET ANOTHER pivot to something else. 

This thread encapsulates the current SNAFU, if nothing else. Unpopular idea pushed by someone incapable of defending it from counterpoints seemingly gains the admin's attention/favor. With no clarification of what is to be about the previous suggestion, on top of that (and as Valk mentioned earlier).

Then it's wondered why people can't be bothered to contribute.

Edited by Shiho Nishizumi
Additions.
 
G3.gif.d8066d8dc749ad2d0835fe69095fa73b.gif
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9 hours ago, Grave said:

Im telling you that you are greatly overestimating how hard it is to manage 15 people. 

And you misunderstood my comment, as with the city score update and beige update had benefited TI greatly I didn't state my support for it, 

 

this is an update that would be detrimental to my Alliance compared to the lack of beige, and I still support it, because its a good idea and gives people getting hit the hardest a fighting chance, and that should speak volumes in itself. 

Either way, I'm not squabbling with you on this anymore, I made my point. 

And I'm telling you you have no experience to know that and that pres only experience is in elite alliances with membership who didn't NEED to be managed to begin with.

Your opinion doesn't count for shit if it's backed by hot air, get that through ya head mate.

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16 hours ago, Akuryo said:

TI has a similar tiering to my alliance when it entered GW 14 and you'd be fighting similar opponents to us. My alliance had 30ish members and two good milcom personnel. It was able to hold roughly 10:1 numerical odds back, bloodying them severely, for 10 days. 

Poor thing. He's like an old dude that constantly repeats the same story but it gets even more unbelievable every time he tells it.

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Honestly, @Akuryo @Grave you guys should declare war on each other and get a room. In that order. Both your opinions and insults don't mean shit until you've beaten the truth out of the other guy, thus proving your point in the only way that has any possible validity.

After all, it'd give empirical experience, due to which the OP can be better theoretically analyzed.

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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