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Murder of Floyd and the Rioting that Followed


Aqua-Corpsman
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10 hours ago, Thalmor said:

The cops don't go around killing black people extrajudicially for fun, though. Officer Derek's knee-neck thing on Floyd was unjust and should be punished, but that example is the exception and not the norm.

I never said they did it for fun or sport or even that it is the norm. What is the norm is police brutality, against citizens of all color. I didn't focus my attention there because I wanted to stay in this narrow line of questioning, but we agree. As far as there being an "epidemic" of police murdering black people, I don't see it, but there is a number of murders committed by police that a society should not accept, and a number of brutal acts by police a society should not accept. This isn't even a strictly moral stance, it's an effectiveness stance. Many institutions lose all effectiveness when trust in them is gone, the police are one of them.

10 hours ago, Thalmor said:

In Alabama, Rayshard Brooks resisted arrest, stole a cop's taser, tried to flee, then shot the taser at a cop. In response, the cops shot and killed Brooks. All on camera from police body cams or the cameras outside the Wendy's this took place at. Rayshard Brooks had a criminal record and was committing a crime at the time of the offense. In response to this shooting, the Wendy's was burnt down by a mob and other rioting occurred. 

In Kenosha, Jacob Blake got in trouble in the first place because "...Blake wasn't supposed to be there, and that he had taken the complainant's keys and refused to give them back." (Source on quote) He ignored the police as they told him to stop walking to his car. He went to the driver's side door and reached in. That's why they shot him. He had a warrant out for felony sexual assault. He's still alive but paralyzed from the waist down. In response to this, Kenosha had riots, looting, and another high-profile shooting.

Even with George Floyd, he was a felon for pointing a gun at a pregnant woman's belly. He acted weird during his arrest and was restrained for it. Derek did put his knee on his neck for longer than he should've and that did probably kill him, but Floyd also had meth in his system alongside 3 times the lethal limit of fentanyl. In response to this, the country has been on fire and racial tensions are the worst they've ever been. 

If you don't want the police to shoot you or use force against you, then don't resist arrest and cooperate with police. I really don't give a shit about criminals who end up dead or injured because they didn't listen to police. It isn't a race thing either. If a local white guy around me ended up dead because they didn't cooperate with police, I wouldn't care. The police don't shoot people for sport. They shoot people because they have to make split-second decisions on rather or not someone presents a threat and if they make the wrong call, they're dead, their wives become widows, and their kids lose their father. Yes, you have 'bad cops' (I use quotes because sometimes I wonder if they're all bad) that will shoot for fun and that do use excessive force when it's not required. Those cops should be punished and lose their jobs (like Derek in Floyd's case). 

For a good example of how split-second these decisions are, check out this video of an activist and news anchor going trough use of force training. These are the situations cops are in and they have to make the best decisions for themselves, their families, and their communities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

Police Activity is a YouTube archive of notable police footage (usually from body cams). Most videos are of cops killing/shooting people. I've watched lots of videos and the people in them would still be alive if they cooperated with police and didn't reach for things or use weapons against cops: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMYxKMh3prxnM_4kYZuB3g

We fundamentally disagree about whether someone can be killed for an alleged crime, but I don't think that's a stance I'll talk you back from.

What I will say is, I agree, being a police officer is an incredibly difficult and stressful job. But, you know what is also stressful? Having a gun pointed at you. I've watched many videos of people being shot just because they are visibly scared shitless of the guns pointed at them and therefore fail to obey instructions because they are under enormous amounts of duress. You know what the difference between a citizen scared shitless of a police officer wielding deadly force and a police officer? One is trained in deescalation (or should be), one has a civic and professional responsibility to control their emotions and reactions, one is wielding a weapon already that can snuff a life out in an instant. The other isn't.

I think there is also an enormous discrepancy between when a police officer actually deems the drawing of a weapon necessary based on race. I remember as a kid watching videos that were meant to be comedies of naked violent white men literally assaulting cops, and people laughing it off. That shit still happens. I would still be pissed if the police were shooting the naked white guy, but there would be far less room to blame it on race.

I'm kinda rambling, so sorry about that, but one statistic that I think really captures to some degree what both of us are talking about: 1/5 police feel near constant frustration or anger, and this anger is directed at citizens they police. Workplace frustration is normal, but it's deadly when it happens to police and breeds a sort of callousness that may not make murder fun, but makes murder easier.

 

10 hours ago, Thalmor said:

Now, with all that being said, I have disdain for the police. I don't like police and this post isn't me playing Cop Internet Defense Force. All cops should wear body cameras and be charged should they commit a serious screw up (Like Derek in the Floyd situation). I can go into the many reasons why I don't like cops and why reform is needed, but that's another 3 paragraphs I don't want to type out. This post is long enough. It sucks that we can't have a perfect police nationwide that doesn't do anything wrong, but we are imperfect creatures and we don't operate at 100% reasonable efficiency all the time. I've personally never had a bad encounter with the police and hope never to have one (I also don't plan on breaking the law and I have never broken the law. I would assume there's a strong correlation here).

I recently wrote a short piece about this. First, you're not alone, nearly half of the population doesn't trust the police. The police have an image problem they are utterly unmotivated and refuse to address, instead they blame it on others.

And I agree, we are never going to get a perfect police force, but we aren't even close to trying to have one. Perfection should be the goal, but knowing we can only do our best. THis is not our best:

1. Of the 50 states, only 16 require de-escalation training, of those 16, only 10 set a minimum hours requirement, with the highest minimum being 4 hours per year (good job, Massachusetts?)
2. On average, a state or local police officer who attends police academy will only need a High School Diploma and will receive 806 hours of training (excluding field training which is typically an additional 500 hours). For comparison, barbers need 1,500 hours.
3. Two studies have found that at least 40 percent of police officer families experience domestic violence, in contrast to 10 percent of families in the general population.
4. Police are also kept on the force at incredibly high rates after breaking the law (29% stay employed after a DUI, 28% after domestic violence, 26% after assault)
 

10 hours ago, Thalmor said:

As for BLM, I don't give a shit about them either. The Kentucky/Lexington branch seems fine (I saw their list of demands and it was just stuff about police accountability). It's a mostly decentralized organization anyways so it's hard to criticize broadly. However, I am disgusted and angered with the state of affairs. In cities all across the United States, there is rioting, looting, violence, and nothing is really done about it locally. Minneapolis, Portland, Chicago, New York City, Kenosha; all of these cities have been torched because of 'muh racism' or something. In all these cities, people chant BLM slogans and the unrest occurs as a result of these perceived racial-based killings (which I already explained why I think that's faulty thinking). The local governments do nothing to stop the unrest. President Trump has offered to use the National Guard, and the local/state politicians either whine before finally letting them in or completely reject the help. I don't even know why those businesses are paying taxes if the government isn't going to do anything about the crime.

Speaking of the politicians and government, they all love the unrest. The American left is almost completely complacent in it all. I think Biden recently finally said 'hey knock it off' but the leftwing in this country either don't speak up about it, nominally endorse it, or are completely in support of all the unrest. What kind of clown country do we live in that our politicians are endorsing widespread unrest in their own communities? The Black Lives Matter and/or Antifa sticker is attached to all of this chaos and I am against it completely. 

I keep trying to make this first bolded point. BLM is, by all measures, a coalition, not a unified movement.

I don't condone looting, rioting, or violence, but we've just expressed that enormous stress can cause a police officer to murder. I can't imagine a life of stress and frustration at the lack of accountability by the police. I am generally really confused what a second amendment uprising would look like? Would it be peaceful? From the folks I hear talk about it, it would be violent. This is tyranny through a different vehicle, in my opinion. I disagree with both the second amendment preppers and the BLM rioters, because I think we still have democratic institutions which are somewhat responsive to the desires of the people... when that finally goes away, ask me again how I feel about it.

Finally, there have been enough verified reports of right wing and anarchist instigators and provocateurs in these protests. I am relatively certain it doesn't account for all of the violence, but it's certainly exacerbated it.

Not going to touch on the politics of it, because honestly, I can count on one hand the amount of politicians I trust at the national level.

10 hours ago, Thalmor said:

Let's reform the police. Outside of police interactions, let's find ways to raise up the American black community from the troubles they face in their communities. Let's end racism. There's nothing wrong with those things. However, don't make martyrs out of criminals, and don't go out and burn down the town because criminals get shot or killed for not cooperating with police.

TLDR:

Police violence and abuse is a problem. It's not just a black problem, though. Police violence effects everyone and should be addressed. However, the cases being pointed to are horrible examples due to their circumstances and the 'victims' are not sympathetic and are bad people themselves. The violence and unrest occurring in major cities is a much bigger problem I'm concerned with and it appears BLM/Antifa are behind these and those organizations are tainted because of it. 

 

Agreed on most points. The issue is "reform" has been tried time and time again. The gap between the idea police force and what we have right now is ENORMOUS. Also, look at the reception that these reforms have within the police community. They are rejected out of hand, and cops feel so comfortable that they commit all sorts of atrocious race baiting and trolling online. You can't tell me that attitude is the result of stressful split second decision making. That is a conscious decision to reject the key responsibility of your job, and to see yourself as some badass skullbasher who has the backing of the government and strong police unions. You want to reform the police? You're going to have to fire a frick ton of police. For instance, here is a list of the NYPD officers who are STILL employed despite tons of VERIFIED accusations from the community they serve, many of them making over 6 figures in tax payer dollars: https://www.nyclu.org/en/campaigns/nypd-misconduct-database

Man you touched on poverty in your closing statements, I need another page or two just to tackle the crippling effect of poverty on crime, health, education, etc.

As always, glad to have these conversations. I hope you'll continue to engage :D

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On 8/30/2020 at 10:00 PM, Thalmor said:

words

 

If you want to root out systemic racism, and violence, you have to look to the roots and not just the symptoms. Inequality, economic repression, and an overwhelming strain of racism in the US is the cause of all of this - and it results in a lack of representation. The US looks like South Africa did in the 80s, and these issues are simply not present in first world nations.

I am all for law and order, but for it to be sustainable, it must be just. BLM and ANTIFA are a reaction to something, not unlike the American Revolution was a reaction to something.

It is also ironic that the 2nd amendment in the US (ie right to shoot your neighbours) was meant to deter a British invasion or to prevent a tyrant from seizing power - yet all the hardcore gun nuts today are supporting a guy who is eroding the few freedoms Americans enjoy. Rather than represent the people contained within the US borders, he is representing a loud, violent, racist, dogmatic, and highly intolerant armed minority.

If the US has another civil war, and I am certain it will one day, it will be to throw out democracy in favour of empire - may as well cut your teeth now, because Americans will have become the very oppressors whose yoke they threw off in their revolution.

Here is a great article by one of my favorite artists, Nick Cave. His comments about both extremes are spot-on.

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/why-do-you-write/

Edited by Buck Turgidson
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Are you originally from Earth, too?

Proud owner of Harry's goat. It's mine now.

I now own MinesomeMC's goat, too. It's starting to look like a herd.

Yep, it is a herd. Aldwulf has added his goat, too, and it ain't Irish.

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Looks like I won this thread. I just keep winning,

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Are you originally from Earth, too?

Proud owner of Harry's goat. It's mine now.

I now own MinesomeMC's goat, too. It's starting to look like a herd.

Yep, it is a herd. Aldwulf has added his goat, too, and it ain't Irish.

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I visited Texas about 6 years ago.

I was shocked at how militarised the police felt over there compared to the UK. Airport security were the most impolite I'd had the displeasure of experiencing. The biggest shock was seeing a policeman with a M16 or something similar. Armed police in the UK use Submachine guns usually, and are very unusual - even in London it is rare to see Armed police outside Westminster.

Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

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On 9/10/2020 at 7:16 AM, Clarke said:

Lets see the fruits of your victory in November. 

What was the value of this post? What goes through someone's mind to jump into a civil and productive conversation and blatantly advertise their ineptitude?

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On 9/14/2020 at 7:43 PM, Hodor said:

What was the value of this post? What goes through someone's mind to jump into a civil and productive conversation and blatantly advertise their ineptitude?

It was an effortless message to let you know it doesn't matter what you say here, it has no real world value outside of here.
Civil and productive conversation? No its a boring conversation and everyone agrees, there is no one to argue with. 
If you were more intelligent you would of recognized this long ago. 

Edited by Clarke

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2 hours ago, Clarke said:

It was an effortless message to let you know it doesn't matter what you say here, it has no real world value outside of here.
Civil and productive conversation? No its a boring conversation and everyone agrees, there is no one to argue with. 
If you were more intelligent you would of recognized this long ago. 

You edited your message insulting my intelligence and still couldn't even properly construct the sentence to make sense. The ignorant are too baselessly confident to see their own deficiencies, these forums are proof of that.

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1 hour ago, Hodor said:

You edited your message insulting my intelligence and still couldn't even properly construct the sentence to make sense. The ignorant are too baselessly confident to see their own deficiencies, these forums are proof of that.

Thanks grammar police.
At least you respect one type of police force. 

You really should think and make better posts, that was worthless. 

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11 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Thanks grammar police.
At least you respect one type of police force. 

You really should think and make better posts, that was worthless. 

lol, okay, you win for getting me to respond and therefore being a successful troll, but this right here proves you didn't read and/or actually comprehend the posts, so I'll throw in the towel. My energy is better spent engaging with serious, thoughtful adults. Take care and well done for your successes in trolling, I shall not be tempted again.

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On 9/8/2020 at 6:47 PM, Hodor said:

Excuse me sir, I've been unanswered since August 31, so get in line.

Not ignoring you btw. It's just that a proper response would take me a few hours to type out and I'm largely unmotivated to carve out that time lol.

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On 9/19/2020 at 9:19 PM, Thalmor said:

Not ignoring you btw. It's just that a proper response would take me a few hours to type out and I'm largely unmotivated to carve out that time lol.

You don't have time to dedicate towards a discussion about police brutality on a dysfunctional nation sim's shitty forums with an anonymous dude who chooses to take on the identity of a simple minded, half-giant peasant? Jesus man, get your priorities straight.

Edited by Hodor
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/4/2020 at 4:55 AM, James XVI said:

How did the United States gain it's independence again?

By rallying the local governments of America to revolt against a tyrannical superpower that sought to reclassify colonists as non-Englishmen while in the meantime denouncing the aimless violence of mob-rule.

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To cut a long story short - This is all Democrats' last bid to remain relevant and they would do anything for it, even if it means burning 3/4th of America. That's the reason why people must fear leftists. They are using BLM rioters as pawn and all the dimwitted blacks and deluded whites are displaying their level of stupidity by getting played by Democrats like a damn fiddle. Race wouldn't have been an issue long ago if people just didn't came out making it an issue every now and then for selfish reasons. George Floyd was a perfect trigger for Democrats and Antifa groups and boy they used his death well. Now all this left to see is if People are able to keep themselves from being toyed with or they become a wind up toy of the Democrats. 

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47 minutes ago, Baron Shubham said:

To cut a long story short - This is all Democrats' last bid to remain relevant and they would do anything for it, even if it means burning 3/4th of America. That's the reason why people must fear leftists. They are using BLM rioters as pawn and all the dimwitted blacks and deluded whites are displaying their level of stupidity by getting played by Democrats like a damn fiddle. Race wouldn't have been an issue long ago if people just didn't came out making it an issue every now and then for selfish reasons. George Floyd was a perfect trigger for Democrats and Antifa groups and boy they used his death well. Now all this left to see is if People are able to keep themselves from being toyed with or they become a wind up toy of the Democrats. 

hell yeah my friend lmfao. btw I have a video everyone here should watch, file:///C:/Users/18185/Desktop/Memes/video0_3.mp4.

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To whom it may concern, I do not represent The Immortals unless explicitly stated (ergo, never.)
<--- I hardly use the forums anymore, add me on discord.

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On 10/5/2020 at 7:07 AM, Baron Shubham said:

To cut a long story short - This is all Democrats' last bid to remain relevant and they would do anything for it, even if it means burning 3/4th of America. That's the reason why people must fear leftists. They are using BLM rioters as pawn and all the dimwitted blacks and deluded whites are displaying their level of stupidity by getting played by Democrats like a damn fiddle. Race wouldn't have been an issue long ago if people just didn't came out making it an issue every now and then for selfish reasons. George Floyd was a perfect trigger for Democrats and Antifa groups and boy they used his death well. Now all this left to see is if People are able to keep themselves from being toyed with or they become a wind up toy of the Democrats. 

Well sheesh, tell us how you really feel my man.

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  • 2 months later...
5 hours ago, JohnPDugger said:

Now in America every second has a pistol. I know places where it is better not to go without armor(which you can buy here by the way), so it is important to protect yourself and your loved ones 

Yeah.  We're in a situation where everyone is throwing arms at eachother.  It just went from a racist police problem to now far-right people shooting protestors dead and vice-versa.  Trump refusing to concede is only making it worse, and I fear a civil war if things continue on this path.

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On 8/25/2020 at 12:46 PM, Comrade Joe said:

It happened again. It will keep happening because the core issue (RACISM) hasn't been addressed. 

Still no arrests for the murder of Breonna Taylor. 

Sorry, didn't see this until now. I want to say 3 words. 
Do. Your. Research.
I am still astonished about that incident, and all the bullshit that is still circulating. https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2020/06/16/breonna-taylor-fact-check-7-rumors-wrong/5326938002/

It was not murder, it was endangerment and someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even if the police were unannounced (which I doubt), you still can't blame the police for returning fire. Mind you, when the firefight stopped the police immediately attempted to resuscitate Breonna Taylor. 

Let's make this cut and dry. Breonna Taylor was dating the wrong person. That wrong person didn't care about her being safe. The police were overzealous with their fire. That's it. Period. Not murder, not racist, nothing like that.

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To whom it may concern, I do not represent The Immortals unless explicitly stated (ergo, never.)
<--- I hardly use the forums anymore, add me on discord.

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Let me correct myself, she was dating the wrong person prior and was currently dating an idiot. My b.

Edited by Corpsman

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To whom it may concern, I do not represent The Immortals unless explicitly stated (ergo, never.)
<--- I hardly use the forums anymore, add me on discord.

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1 hour ago, Corpsman said:

Sorry, didn't see this until now. I want to say 3 words. 
Do. Your. Research.
I am still astonished about that incident, and all the bullshit that is still circulating. https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2020/06/16/breonna-taylor-fact-check-7-rumors-wrong/5326938002/

It was not murder, it was endangerment and someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even if the police were unannounced (which I doubt), you still can't blame the police for returning fire. Mind you, when the firefight stopped the police immediately attempted to resuscitate Breonna Taylor. 

Let's make this cut and dry. Breonna Taylor was dating the wrong person. That wrong person didn't care about her being safe. The police were overzealous with their fire. That's it. Period. Not murder, not racist, nothing like that.

OK, let's go and say that the police did not intend to fire on Breonna Taylor.  It would still qualify under manslaughter: "the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder".

The police did not intend to murder Breonna Taylor, but they did kill her.  The only charge any of the officers were given was wanton endangerment.... of the white family's house next door.  The black family upstairs, who had a bullet enter their apartment, had no charges filed in their defense.

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16 hours ago, BrythonLexi said:

OK, let's go and say that the police did not intend to fire on Breonna Taylor.  It would still qualify under manslaughter: "the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or otherwise in circumstances not amounting to murder".

The police did not intend to murder Breonna Taylor, but they did kill her.  The only charge any of the officers were given was wanton endangerment.... of the white family's house next door.  The black family upstairs, who had a bullet enter their apartment, had no charges filed in their defense.

That's a fair argument, but are soldiers indicted for civilians killed in crossfire? Sometimes accidents are unavoidable in these professions and, as tragic as they are, cannot be dealt justice. Doctors have patients that die, and its no surprise when I tell you that. Why is it an issue when cops have suspects who die? Sure, for both professions there is a bad apple here and there but their whole job is trying to help people. A mistake such as this, which in my opinion the police had every right to return fire, shouldn't be used to say cops are racist or other such bs.

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To whom it may concern, I do not represent The Immortals unless explicitly stated (ergo, never.)
<--- I hardly use the forums anymore, add me on discord.

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