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Murder of Floyd and the Rioting that Followed


Aqua-Corpsman
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The murder of George Floyd was a tragedy and the officer should be punished.

The rioting is unacceptable, and rioters should be arrested.

People of Orbis, what are your thoughts?

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19 hours ago, Corpsman said:

-snip-

The rioting is unacceptable, and rioters should be arrested.

-snip-

You cannot arrest people when it was in the thousands lol.

I do agree all riots & lootings were wrong & all who have passed due to situations like these would not want this.  Even almost all who have fought for most of us to have liberty would not want us to do what we they have been doing.  The government is not really on the right side of things either. Tbh there are also a lot of BLM extremists in protest/riots/lootings as well as white supremacists in the government.  Then there are the ALM group which has a mix of extremists & supremacists. But the majority of us ALM are like me & you Corps.  We are judged/assumed thou to be w/ those extremists & supremacists no matter how many times we state our true emotion, bias, & facts.

 

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1 hour ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

You cannot arrest people when it was in the thousands lol.

I do agree all riots & lootings were wrong & all who have passed due to situations like these would not want this.  Even almost all who have fought for most of us to have liberty would not want us to do what we they have been doing.  The government is not really on the right side of things either. Tbh there are also a lot of BLM extremists in protest/riots/lootings as well as white supremacists in the government.  Then there are the ALM group which has a mix of extremists & supremacists. But the majority of us ALM are like me & you Corps.  We are judged/assumed thou to be w/ those extremists & supremacists no matter how many times we state our true emotion, bias, & facts.

This is factually incorrect. You claim alot of BLM are extremists when in fact the vast majority of looters are looting/rioting for another cause and merely jumping on the BLM bandwagon as a chance to cause havoc. Also ALM are not assumed to be extremists and supremacists, merely racist because at this moment, it is black lives most severely endangered, not white or other non-black races. ALM is used by people who claim they favour equality, but in reality it takes the focus off of black suffering and suggests all races are treated in such a way which is simply not true. Quoting stats like 50% of police killings are white is completely disproportionate to population and shows ignorance of those who support ALM. As the celebrity Seth Rogen said, frick you if you support ALM

I do however agree with the main gist of this. Rioters should be arrested where possible as they are not helping the BLM movement and attacking shops and businesses will not support it in the long term, only cause the middle classes to turn away from violence as they have historically. Donations and petitions are needed

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10 minutes ago, PartyAvocado said:

You claim alot of BLM are extremists....merely jumping on the BLM bandwagon as a chance to cause havoc. Also ALM are not assumed to be extremists/supremacists, merely racist because it is black lives most severely endangered, not white or other non-black races. ALM is used by people who claim they favour equality, but in reality it takes the focus off of black suffering and suggests all races are treated in such way. Quoting stats...shows ignorance of those who support ALM. As the celebrity Seth Rogen said, frick you if you support ALM

I do however agree with the main gist of this. Rioters should be arrested where possible as they are not helping the BLM movement and attacking shops and businesses will not support it in the long term, only cause the middle classes to turn away from violence as they have historically. Donations and petitions are needed

Bold--Agree   Underline--Disagree   Italic--Between   

1. That statement is partially contradicting what you are claiming. Some of those skipping onto the wagon are extremist wanting havoc cause they either have past/present issues against their family/friends/ancestry, want to prove right in their ideals values & beliefs, have a grudge against the government/military/police/etc, or miscellaneous. 

2. It is not racist to support all people no matter what the division is. This statement itself is hypocritically ignorant to all other races/people.  Mostly everyone goes through endangerment at some point of there life in every shape & form (But then there is being over-sensitive/insecure).

3.  This statement is also hypocritically ignorant to all other races/people.  Yes I admit it takes the focus off blacks. Yet all races can be treat the same way in different areas of the globe & in different situations. Blacks are not the only race to get bullied in the world. Historically in the Americas, Natives & Blacks got the majority of coverage of being kicked around yet we sill fought among each other too.  Historically too, there have been more disputes, wars, & scrambling between whites cause we create the majority of the population in the world too. Then whites have also started more wars against other races too. Anyways, if we keep the focus on just one group of people then only than one group gets privilege.  When we focus on everyone as a whole, we learn how to we need to equalize everyone onto the same level. But achieving the goal were ALM is way harder than focusing on one set of people.

I understand we both agree on the overall appeal. I do also understand once we start making one race matter alongside each other, one by one, then all lives matter.  If one knows that BLM & works slowly to get all others to matter then thats great. Otherwise rejecting partially or fully the idea that all lives matter is naive, ignorant, & hypocritical itself. 

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13 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

I understand we both agree on the overall appeal. I do also understand once we start making one race matter alongside each other, one by one, then all lives matter.  If one knows that BLM & works slowly to get all others to matter then thats great. Otherwise rejecting partially or fully the idea that all lives matter is naive, ignorant, & hypocritical itself. 

I agree that all lives do matter. The problem I have is that the people I see stating that, are also the people I know who are racist (the kind of people who say "send the blacks home" and such) - obviously this then undermines the message.

At the end of the day we all bleed Red. It is stupid to belittle anyone because of race, creed or gender.

Edited by Robert Ap Ioan
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17 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

I do agree all riots & lootings were wrong & all who have passed due to situations like these would not want this.  Even almost all who have fought for most of us to have liberty would not want us to do what we they have been doing.  

How did the United States gain it's independence again?

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4 hours ago, Robert Ap Ioan said:

I agree that all lives do matter. The problem I have is that the people I see stating that, are also the people I know who are racist (the kind of people who say "send the blacks home" and such) - obviously this then undermines the message.

At the end of the day we all bleed Red. It is stupid to belittle anyone because of race, creed or gender.

In my eyes, I love seeing people peacefully protest for the right to equality, equity, & justice as long as they are legally, socially, ethically, & morally good. Obviously some of the ways like looting, riots, & some protests were not really a good idea. The police involvement in certain situations was also wrong.  Walking/standing the streets alongside people supporting you w/ no fighting, just all of you wanting to be equals legally, socially, ethically, & morally is awesome.  Sad thing is there will always be differences between people but hopefully we can learn to cope & adjust to be able to work together.

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I'm pissed off that we could've had a great discussion on police overreach and brutality, but instead the media and bad-faith actors had to take over the narrative and make it a race issue. Then you have criminals going around ruining livelihoods and putting thousands out of work as we're in the worst economic situations in our history. Meanwhile, every celebrity, corporation, and a lot of politicians come out in support of the violence and it just drives me up the wall. We live in a clown country. 

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2 hours ago, Thalmor said:

I'm pissed off that we could've had a great discussion on police overreach and brutality, but instead the media and bad-faith actors had to take over the narrative and make it a race issue. Then you have criminals going around ruining livelihoods and putting thousands out of work as we're in the worst economic situations in our history. Meanwhile, every celebrity, corporation, and a lot of politicians come out in support of the violence and it just drives me up the wall. We live in a clown country. 

Taking applicants to Canada yet?

We have our own issues as well, but we will be happy to discuss that over some drinks and hockey.

Peace and love from Canada to you and the Yanks in these times.

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  • 3 weeks later...

See, something that ticks me off, is people saying that black people are naturally poor.

That's pretty racist tbh. But, oh God forbid, a black man is poor? It's just cuz he's black.

No. The issue in the United States is not as much race as many think. Plenty of poor, white, junkies get abused by police forces. Nobody freaks out nearly as much, cuz they white. The issue is economic. Plenty of rich black people and poor white people.

I also still have yet to believe that George Floyd was killed for his color, and not some other dispute between the officer and him. That officer was terrible, he should have been fired long ago. But the previous police brutality charges against him were by white and black people. He wasn't racist, just shitty.



 

On 6/4/2020 at 6:55 AM, James XVI said:

How did the United States gain it's independence again?

I hope you aren't suggesting we start killing whoever disagrees with us.

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4 hours ago, Corpsman said:

See, something that ticks me off, is people saying that black people are naturally poor.

That's pretty racist tbh. But, oh God forbid, a black man is poor? It's just cuz he's black.

No. The issue in the United States is not as much race as many think. Plenty of poor, white, junkies get abused by police forces. Nobody freaks out nearly as much, cuz they white. The issue is economic. Plenty of rich black people and poor white people.

I recommend reading about red-lining, COINTELPRO, federally funded crack epidemic, ghettos, stop-and-frisk of minorities, and more. The federal United States has done a lot to frick over black Americans and by extension their children, and it's coming of a place of ignorance or malice to say racism is not as much of an issue. The "justice" and private prison system in the US is awful to everyone who isn't rich, but poor black Americans are the most mistreated under it.

Edited by Nadya Iwakura
Sheepy, I'm not allowed to say "frick"?
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On 6/27/2020 at 9:58 PM, Nadya Iwakura said:

I recommend reading about red-lining, COINTELPRO, federally funded crack epidemic, ghettos, stop-and-frisk of minorities, and more. The federal United States has done a lot to frick over black Americans and by extension their children, and it's coming of a place of ignorance or malice to say racism is not as much of an issue. The "justice" and private prison system in the US is awful to everyone who isn't rich, but poor black Americans are the most mistreated under it.

I shall read up on all of that now, and I will get back to you. I still highly doubt it though, as why would the government go out of its way to make more of the citizens hate it? On paper, there usually is no legal difference between a black man and a white man (the few cases there are, it is actually in black people's favor such as Affirmative Action). So why would the government, a very bureaucratic and automated system now a-days, target specific people only to detriment the government itself. It seems against common sense. 

And ghettos are not exclusively black either.

And yeah, you can't say frick.

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On 6/27/2020 at 9:58 PM, Nadya Iwakura said:

I recommend reading about red-lining, COINTELPRO, federally funded crack epidemic, ghettos, stop-and-frisk of minorities, and more. The federal United States has done a lot to frick over black Americans and by extension their children, and it's coming of a place of ignorance or malice to say racism is not as much of an issue. The "justice" and private prison system in the US is awful to everyone who isn't rich, but poor black Americans are the most mistreated under it.

I read up on it.

Red-lining doesn't make sense, because if a bank doesn't want to give someone a loan they don't have to. Then they miss out. No loans=no interest=no profit. There is obviously another reason that you don't see, why would someone not loan out to a man that can pay it back? Now, if said man cannot pay it back then they don't loan to them. To be blunt, there is something other than racism that isn't studied in "red-lining".

COINTELPRO was a pretty shitty thing done by the US government. But frick you if you think that it was racist. They attacked the Black Panthers as much as the Ku Klux Klan. They were not justified, but they weren't racist either. They targeted anyone against the government, white or black.

The "federally funded crack epidemic" is bs. It was shipped from Columbia by drug traffickers. There is no evidence that the U.S Government backed it in any way shape or form.

Ghettos, as I said, are not exclusively black. They are poor. Ghettos have no issue of their own, they have healthcare, education, law enforcement, and elected representatives. If everyone in a "inner city neighborhood" left (and took their graffiti, trash, and drugs with them) it would look like any other part of that city. The issue is the people in that neighborhood, not the neighborhood itself.

"Stop-And-Frisk" of minorities I can't provide any evidence against, so I will give you that one. I couldn't find many reliable sources on it and I hear about it a lot so fine, cops check minorities more often. Tbh I don't blame them. The majority of police officers feloniously killed on duty is by black men https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ucr/leoka.
I don't think it is justified exactly, but it makes some sense.

I do love having these debates by the way.
 

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17 hours ago, Corpsman said:

Red-lining doesn't make sense, because if a bank doesn't want to give someone a loan they don't have to. Then they miss out. No loans=no interest=no profit. There is obviously another reason that you don't see, why would someone not loan out to a man that can pay it back? Now, if said man cannot pay it back then they don't loan to them. To be blunt, there is something other than racism that isn't studied in "red-lining".

...

Ghettos, as I said, are not exclusively black. They are poor. Ghettos have no issue of their own, they have healthcare, education, law enforcement, and elected representatives. If everyone in a "inner city neighborhood" left (and took their graffiti, trash, and drugs with them) it would look like any other part of that city. The issue is the people in that neighborhood, not the neighborhood itself.

I think you miss the point. Poor people of today, left with little, are often the result of the inequalities of yesterday. The racist generalizations that people of minorities were "less trustworthy" stem from long ago, and thus minority families were then given less opportunities. Minority neighborhoods have faced inequality throughout history, including Romani families, Jewish families, and black American families, it is not the fault of the people in ghettos that they were disenfranchised from voting rights, given less power over themselves than others, and given less opportunities in education, in getting paying jobs, receiving loans, and more. This led to many minority neighborhoods becoming poor, with less access to education, being exploited by corporations, among other sad realities. Moving into a neighborhood where they are the racial minority is also dangerous because they are targeted by people who are raised with these racist generalizations, that are less compassionate towards them for their generally lower class and status.

17 hours ago, Corpsman said:

COINTELPRO was a pretty shitty thing done by the US government. But frick you if you think that it was racist. They attacked the Black Panthers as much as the Ku Klux Klan. They were not justified, but they weren't racist either. They targeted anyone against the government, white or black.

Excuse me? The government of the time was racist and ripe with segregation, COINTELPRO was a mechanism to keep that government in order by snuffing out resistance. The people rising in protest, that were targeted by the FBI in COINTELPRO, were against the authoritarianism, racism, segregation, the taking of land from American Indian tribes, and more. The FBI, who worked in the interest of the government, were clearly fighting to continue these practices by targeting activists within these communities. They tried to make Martin Luther King Jr. kill himself. If that isn't racist, then your worldview is clearly blocking some vital stream of information from you.

17 hours ago, Corpsman said:

The "federally funded crack epidemic" is bs. It was shipped from Columbia by drug traffickers. There is no evidence that the U.S Government backed it in any way shape or form.

Some of the drug traffickers were counter-resistance groups backed by the CIA, which leads to the connection.

17 hours ago, Corpsman said:

"Stop-And-Frisk" of minorities I can't provide any evidence against, so I will give you that one. I couldn't find many reliable sources on it and I hear about it a lot so fine, cops check minorities more often. Tbh I don't blame them. The majority of police officers feloniously killed on duty is by black men https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ucr/leoka.
I don't think it is justified exactly, but it makes some sense.

Ever take the time to think of why? Being out of opportunities drives many poor people to crime, and America has a history of denying opportunities to minorities. Suicide rates and crime rates increase in poverty. They stop minorities more because they usually have less opportunities to survive. The rate at which black people are killed by police is also higher than white people killed by police.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/06/04/economic-divide-black-households/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

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People point to the disproportionate numbers of black people being killed by cops. What about the disproportionate number of black people who commit crimes such as homicide and other violent crimes every year.

Edited by Clarke

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The next two questions are thus?

Why are Black people more likely to commit crimes?

What is being done to slow down and prevent a life a crime in society?

 

Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

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  • 1 month later...

Back in 80s and 90s, when I was in school we used to have an officer come to school and talk about drugs and all that fun stuff.  We would ask him about his gun and he would say that he has never actually pulled his gun out while in duty.  Granted we were like 3rd graders and he could be lying, but I think it was probably true.

In highschool I worked in a movie theater and we had cops that were stationed there every weekend because large crowds and such, and we used to go golfing with a few of them, and we would also ask them about if they ever actually shot their gun while on duty, and only one of them had ever fired his gun, and that was when someone was trying to run him down with a car, and he said he could count on one hand the number of times he had to pull out his gun while on duty, note this was about 20 years ago.

I say that, and I watch some of these videos on the ole interwebs, and it seems like cops these days are pulling their guns for absolutely no reason.  That dude that got shot 7 times yesterday had cops with guns pulled on him, and he had nothing to do with why they were called.  I saw another video where cops had pulled guns on 2 black teens who were actually threatened by a crazy homeless guy, they were the victims and one of the deputies was behind his car with what looked like a AR15 pointed at them.  It really seems like if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

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Ronny I agree completely. I would like to add that it is dangerous out there. Even if every 1 out 10000 traffic stops resorted in a hostile and dangerous environment, it would lead with me being interested in preserving my life. I got three kids and a wife. I have a mortgage and an addiction to precious metals. I want to go home at night. It only takes one bullet as you approach the window to change it all.

As a citizen I remain respectful and calm while being stopped. I am friendly. I follow instructions and ask questions respectfully. I told the truth. Even while being under arrest i was not handcuffed because of my nature and manner. It was a minor problem. Driving without a license so not like I had a stolen gun in a stolen car. I am 6'5 and 240lbs. I am white but I prefer the word canadian. I'm turning 40 right away. I honestly believe that police dont want to kill anyone. They will escalate as high as you wanna go. They will win even if it costs your life. Dont fight, dont die.

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On 6/5/2020 at 4:55 PM, Thalmor said:

I'm pissed off that we could've had a great discussion on police overreach and brutality, but instead the media and bad-faith actors had to take over the narrative and make it a race issue. Then you have criminals going around ruining livelihoods and putting thousands out of work as we're in the worst economic situations in our history. Meanwhile, every celebrity, corporation, and a lot of politicians come out in support of the violence and it just drives me up the wall. We live in a clown country. 

I'll finally hop in here.

 

I think, mostly I agree with Thalmor, but with one enormous caveat. The issue here is extrajudicial violence and murder by the state, but the bigger issue is race, but not in the way it's been framed. There is a history of racism in the United States which has created racial wealth inequality for generations. Poverty, regardless of race, is the root cause of many other issues: crime, poor health, more poverty ironically, etc. The issue, however, is that people who hate BLM, or at least the many I've interacted with, refuse to budge on the idea that the cops can be wrong. The idea that because someone is looting under the pretense of representing a large coalition, or the fact that someone frames their argument through the lens of race, means their argument is illegitimate. To me, that seems to hint at some sort of racism. That you would overlook unjustified and tacitly sanctioned state violence against its citizens simply because those who are actively fighting it are doing so because it affects one race is a sign that you have utterly corrupted morals, or are just searching for the slightest excuse to discredit a movement.

As proof, look at the responses above. We've focused entirely on race, and by doing so some of those in this thread have endorsed extrajudicial murder by the state for crimes alleged. That is an insane position and one that conservatives are arguably more terrified of than liberals. It's absolutely a sign of a tyrannical government, but, because the left frames it as a racial issue, the right must, as a kneejerk reaction, disagree on all points even the valid ones.

So let's actually talk about the issue, is the state permitted to murder or use violence against an individual solely because they are accused of a crime?

I say no, and though there are times where deescalation is truly impossible, none of the recorded killings fit that profile. Police officers are meant to protect and serve, I don't expect them to dive in front of every bullet, but to think that cops being hurt or killed is something that should never happen is idiotic. It is a risky profession, but with the enormous potential to be a noble one if you actually serve and protect. If we want to think of police officers as superheroes, they better damn well act like it, they need to lead by example. A short temper and a proclivity for violence are too common in the US police force.

If you answered yes, then frankly, I have no argument for you, but I certainly hope you aren't making arguments elsewhere for smaller government and law and order.

 

tl;dr If you agree that the state shouldn't murder it's citizens without sentencing them to death in a court of law, but are spending time and energy trying to bring down BLM instead of fighting the core issue, you don't actually care about extrajudicial state murder.

Edited by Hodor
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On 8/28/2020 at 10:22 AM, Hodor said:

So let's actually talk about the issue, is the state permitted to murder or use violence against an individual solely because they are accused of a crime?

tl;dr If you agree that the state shouldn't murder it's citizens without sentencing them to death in a court of law, but are spending time and energy trying to bring down BLM instead of fighting the core issue, you don't actually care about extrajudicial state murder.

This post ended up being a lot longer than I intended but this is a massively complicated and nuanced subject. Thanks Hodor for replying to me and here is my response to you. I believe I take an adversarial position to you and I hope to use this post to explain why I feel and think the way I do. Your post was respectful and reasonable and I hope mine comes across the same way. It will only be through proper dialogue between reasonable people conducted in good faith that issues like this can be resolved and a pathway into a brighter future can be established. Anyways, here it is:

-

The cops don't go around killing black people extrajudicially for fun, though. Officer Derek's knee-neck thing on Floyd was unjust and should be punished, but that example is the exception and not the norm.

In Alabama, Rayshard Brooks resisted arrest, stole a cop's taser, tried to flee, then shot the taser at a cop. In response, the cops shot and killed Brooks. All on camera from police body cams or the cameras outside the Wendy's this took place at. Rayshard Brooks had a criminal record and was committing a crime at the time of the offense. In response to this shooting, the Wendy's was burnt down by a mob and other rioting occurred. 

In Kenosha, Jacob Blake got in trouble in the first place because "...Blake wasn't supposed to be there, and that he had taken the complainant's keys and refused to give them back." (Source on quote) He ignored the police as they told him to stop walking to his car. He went to the driver's side door and reached in. That's why they shot him. He had a warrant out for felony sexual assault. He's still alive but paralyzed from the waist down. In response to this, Kenosha had riots, looting, and another high-profile shooting.

Even with George Floyd, he was a felon for pointing a gun at a pregnant woman's belly. He acted weird during his arrest and was restrained for it. Derek did put his knee on his neck for longer than he should've and that did probably kill him, but Floyd also had meth in his system alongside 3 times the lethal limit of fentanyl. In response to this, the country has been on fire and racial tensions are the worst they've ever been. 

If you don't want the police to shoot you or use force against you, then don't resist arrest and cooperate with police. I really don't give a shit about criminals who end up dead or injured because they didn't listen to police. It isn't a race thing either. If a local white guy around me ended up dead because they didn't cooperate with police, I wouldn't care. The police don't shoot people for sport. They shoot people because they have to make split-second decisions on rather or not someone presents a threat and if they make the wrong call, they're dead, their wives become widows, and their kids lose their father. Yes, you have 'bad cops' (I use quotes because sometimes I wonder if they're all bad) that will shoot for fun and that do use excessive force when it's not required. Those cops should be punished and lose their jobs (like Derek in Floyd's case). 

For a good example of how split-second these decisions are, check out this video of an activist and news anchor going trough use of force training. These are the situations cops are in and they have to make the best decisions for themselves, their families, and their communities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

Police Activity is a YouTube archive of notable police footage (usually from body cams). Most videos are of cops killing/shooting people. I've watched lots of videos and the people in them would still be alive if they cooperated with police and didn't reach for things or use weapons against cops: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMYxKMh3prxnM_4kYZuB3g

Now, with all that being said, I have disdain for the police. I don't like police and this post isn't me playing Cop Internet Defense Force. All cops should wear body cameras and be charged should they commit a serious screw up (Like Derek in the Floyd situation). I can go into the many reasons why I don't like cops and why reform is needed, but that's another 3 paragraphs I don't want to type out. This post is long enough. It sucks that we can't have a perfect police nationwide that doesn't do anything wrong, but we are imperfect creatures and we don't operate at 100% reasonable efficiency all the time. I've personally never had a bad encounter with the police and hope never to have one (I also don't plan on breaking the law and I have never broken the law. I would assume there's a strong correlation here).

As for BLM, I don't give a shit about them either. The Kentucky/Lexington branch seems fine (I saw their list of demands and it was just stuff about police accountability). It's a mostly decentralized organization anyways so it's hard to criticize broadly. However, I am disgusted and angered with the state of affairs. In cities all across the United States, there is rioting, looting, violence, and nothing is really done about it locally. Minneapolis, Portland, Chicago, New York City, Kenosha; all of these cities have been torched because of 'muh racism' or something. In all these cities, people chant BLM slogans and the unrest occurs as a result of these perceived racial-based killings (which I already explained why I think that's faulty thinking). The local governments do nothing to stop the unrest. President Trump has offered to use the National Guard, and the local/state politicians either whine before finally letting them in or completely reject the help. I don't even know why those businesses are paying taxes if the government isn't going to do anything about the crime.

Speaking of the politicians and government, they all love the unrest. The American left is almost completely complacent in it all. I think Biden recently finally said 'hey knock it off' but the leftwing in this country either don't speak up about it, nominally endorse it, or are completely in support of all the unrest. What kind of clown country do we live in that our politicians are endorsing widespread unrest in their own communities? The Black Lives Matter and/or Antifa sticker is attached to all of this chaos and I am against it completely. 

Let's reform the police. Outside of police interactions, let's find ways to raise up the American black community from the troubles they face in their communities. Let's end racism. There's nothing wrong with those things. However, don't make martyrs out of criminals, and don't go out and burn down the town because criminals get shot or killed for not cooperating with police.

TLDR:

Police violence and abuse is a problem. It's not just a black problem, though. Police violence effects everyone and should be addressed. However, the cases being pointed to are horrible examples due to their circumstances and the 'victims' are not sympathetic and are bad people themselves. The violence and unrest occurring in major cities is a much bigger problem I'm concerned with and it appears BLM/Antifa are behind these and those organizations are tainted because of it. 

 

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