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Are we willing to forgive?


Kastor
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Read my post, then vote. It is a short post.  

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  1. 1. Read my post, then vote. It is a short post.

    • Yes, it’s over gg
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    • No, they are implicit.
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10 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

If they were successful in driving me, my friends, and my past and present allies from the game, we wouldn't be around to forgive them. Just a thought.

At least with The Commonwealth, it can be argued that they switched sides and helped to try to make things wrong. Camelot, UPN, and Acadia should be targetted before TCW (in that order). 

Grudges are dumb and there's no utility in them, though. I don't think we should just forgive and forget either. Rose allying up with Camelot so quick was weird. 

Rose allied camelot as they were the only alliance on the other side of the war that lobbied for our peace and was talking to a brick wall while trying to get us off the hook. We protected them initially post war for them to not go out the way most communities associated with IQ thought going out the way Leothegreat wanted to kill his communities. If we didn't return the favour of their cooperation with us last war then camelot would just be another name like every other alliance that Leothegreat wanted deleted. And people that switched sides last war unwillingly by being hit by bk and NPO have my sincere admiration for sticking through with us. 

 

I am not a member of Guardian p&w

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21 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

At least with The Commonwealth, it can be argued that they switched sides and helped to try to make things wrong.

"make things wrong"

Thalmor is an IQ sympathizer. Take him out.

 

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3 hours ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

As for Kata's FA views, I do not think she has any Eumir. 

for the record my official views on fa is it sucks 😧

and the pplz who like doing it are weirdos xP
especially the ones who love wasting tanks

rawr

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28 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

Rose allied camelot as they were the only alliance on the other side of the war that lobbied for our peace and was talking to a brick wall while trying to get us off the hook. We protected them initially post war for them to not go out the way most communities associated with IQ thought going out the way Leothegreat wanted to kill his communities. 

Did Camelot do this for others? Or just Rose? Or Rose and her allies? 

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45 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

Grudges are dumb and there's no utility in them, though.

I disagree. Grudges are good. Seething anger is the most effective way to retain members like me. 

29 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

Rose allied camelot as they were the only alliance on the other side of the war that lobbied for our peace and was talking to a brick wall while trying to get us off the hook. 

Well, Camelot depending on you is a better look than you depending on them in a world where IQ didn't implode in on itself at least. 

8 minutes ago, Hodor said:

If they were really trying to sue for peace or move the needle in the IQ coalition channels, you'd think they'd have realized it was useless after a time and actually acted courageously on their convictions. 

But acting on ones convictions is hard.

And one would actually need real convictions in order to follow through on them. 

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One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

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39 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

Rose allied camelot as they were the only alliance on the other side of the war that lobbied for our peace and was talking to a brick wall while trying to get us off the hook. We protected them initially post war for them to not go out the way most communities associated with IQ thought going out the way Leothegreat wanted to kill his communities. If we didn't return the favour of their cooperation with us last war then camelot would just be another name like every other alliance that Leothegreat wanted deleted. And people that switched sides last war unwillingly by being hit by bk and NPO have my sincere admiration for sticking through with us. 

There was no risk of camelot or any other party being forcibly deleted- that would have been by their own hand. We offered white peace immediately when the bans occurred.

As for camelot being cooperative: ok abbas, sure.

15 minutes ago, Hodor said:

There was a lot said by those parties still in the game on these very forums which still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'd be totally willing to forgive if they showed literally any amount of remorse, but many of those parties still sound very much like IQ apologists to this day. Acknowledge you were party to a terrible group of players who made it their goal to drive the rest of us from the game, apologize, and move on and we'll do the same.

Similarly, I don't buy the apologists on behalf of the aforementioned parties. If they were really trying to sue for peace or move the needle in the IQ coalition channels, you'd think they'd have realized it was useless after a time and actually acted courageously on their convictions. Well, that didn't really happen.

Hodor nails it imo.

9 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

Did Camelot do this for others? Or just Rose? Or Rose and her allies? 

When IQ had the boot on our collective throat, it tried once or twice to get a few individual parties out to force a collapse, while maintaining its terms on the rest of the fronts. Knee-jerk answer would be "just rose" (and maybe allies), but it may very well be that an offer was made to another party. Particularly toward the end of the war when the bans occurred.

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4 minutes ago, Malleator said:

*Words*

I was a part of many of those Sphinx back-channel DM’s. He was attempting to play both sides the entire time. Not exactly honorable. Carthago has also been talking with us the entire time, except - unlike Sphinx - they actually had the balls to flip when they knew exactly what IQ was doing. Had IQ turned the table on the PR war and had George’s leaks not have come to the open - I have major doubts that TCW would have switched sides. Switching sides to save one’s arse is not the same as being honorable. With that said, I don’t doubt that many in TCW wanted peace/questioned IQ the entire time - Your dear leader on the other hand...that may be a different story. I’m sure Sphinx will claim that he was trying to change IQ from within, but based on the ‘George logs’ and other actions made by Sphinxypoo - I have a hard time believing that he felt like he was trying to ‘do the right thing’.

OWR/Carthago’s dedication to stepping away from IQ’s BS is much different than TCW flipping sides.

In regards to the OP - Yes, I am willing to forgive. It would be a hell of a lot easier to do if the parties looking to be forgiven would actually own up to their mistakes and quit trying to justify IQ’s moves in Dial Up.

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Some of you have already nailed it about owning up, which would be the best solution to some of the alliances that fought on IQ’s side. Especially since some (Camelot) continued to defend the IQ narrative after the war was over. 

Edited by The Royalist

aka Filip, The Royalist or Tremor

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3 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

There was no risk of camelot or any other party being forcibly deleted- that would have been by their own hand. We offered white peace immediately when the bans occurred.

As for camelot being cooperative: ok abbas, sure.

Hodor nails it imo.

When IQ had the boot on our collective throat, it tried once or twice to get a few individual parties out to force a collapse, while maintaining its terms on the rest of the fronts. Knee-jerk answer would be "just rose" (and maybe allies), but it may very well be that an offer was made to another party. Particularly toward the end of the war when the bans occurred.

I can answer just here from what I know so far to @Hodor @Sisyphus @Thalmor and you @Prefonteen

Yeah Hodor is right and spot on about it and there should be practical amends made for stuff that happened last war and I personally think camelot is putting effort into those amends as they are still continuing to repay for the North Point bank that got couped and sent to Camelot which became part of the larger coalition funds of inquisition. Not to mention there were IC differences from last war that people did homework on before we thought it's a good idea to give them a lifeboat. Sval the leader of OWR vouched for camelot's charachter before we comitted. 

We did offer white peace to everyone and by we, I mean the alliances that were the major sphere leaders. The minor alliances from tcw sphere and others not part of nap were still attacking camelot after February 20th. 

And I am not sure what different experiences you had with camelot last war partisan but as far as I know Arthur was lobbying for our sphere as a whole and some minor alliances like federation and tle due to the diplomacy during last war. They are at least twice the size they are now compared to before last war as they also have members from alliances that fought on our front and merged into them during the conclusion of the war. 

 

And yeah I am aware of goons attempt to get tkr and chaos sphere out of the war but we all know that attempt was not sincere when goons was making blocs within blocs and negotiating those surrenders. But I do not think camelot was playing some 3D chess here cause we already knew what the answer would be for camelot's attempts at lobbying as they were being laughed at in the upper channels of their coalition. 

I am not calling them saints here but the only differences we all have with camelot are IC differences for being a BK lapdog and they have already made efforts that I appreciate and will improve upon it as they learn to understand the game better and the political realities. IQ did not even let their membership on these forums to talk lol. 

 

I am not a member of Guardian p&w

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While on the topic of forgiveness....Lordaeron 3.0 (4.0? I lost count)? Or maybe AO 2.0, the fall of those dastardly knights of the templar is written in our most ancient scriptures. We foresaw the end of the Pacificans, we anticipated the end of the Dutch, we have no idea what I'm talking about. Bed time

Roll Polaris 2020

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12 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

I can answer just here from what I know so far to @Hodor @Sisyphus @Thalmor and you @Prefonteen

Sval the leader of OWR vouched for camelot's charachter before we comitted. 

I am not calling them saints here but the only differences we all have with camelot are IC differences for being a BK lapdog and they have already made efforts that I appreciate and will improve upon it as they learn to understand the game better and the political realities. IQ did not even let their membership on these forums to talk lol. 

How exactly can someone vouch for someone’s character when they have nothing to lose towards rose? 
Also, is Camelot not understanding game ‘better and the political realities’ the reason why they’re not defending themselves? 

aka Filip, The Royalist or Tremor

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Just now, The Royalist said:

How exactly can someone vouch for someone’s character when they have nothing to lose towards rose? 
Also, is Camelot not understanding game ‘better and the political realities’ the reason why they’re not defending themselves? 

I mean it's a credible and admirable charachter. I would assume it's a sincere evaluation. 

Oh idk why they are not posting right now. This thread is a debate between different relevant individuals. They for sure can speak for themselves, we are not BK. I was just sharing my perspective of the changes and amends camelot has been attempting and it's something I have definitely expected and even mentioned to other alliances we fought last war. And if I start calling out someone that is making good efforts at rehabilitation then I am just gonna be no different than Roquentin that questioned every sincere intention to help him create the multipolar world that he destroyed within one blitz. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

I mean it's a credible and admirable charachter. I would assume it's a sincere evaluation. 

Oh idk why they are not posting right now. This thread is a debate between different relevant individuals. They for sure can speak for themselves, we are not BK. I was just sharing my perspective of the changes and amends camelot has been attempting and it's something I have definitely expected and even mentioned to other alliances we fought last war. And if I start calling out someone that is making good efforts at rehabilitation then I am just gonna be no different than Roquentin that questioned every sincere intention to help him create the multipolar world that he destroyed within one blitz. 

Definitely not saying you’re BK, was just curious what you’re referring to as camelot’s character, because they don’t have that good of a rep. 

If they’re looking to improve and change themselves, then perhaps they should come forward and show some remorse for their wrongdoings. 

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17 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

I mean it's a credible and admirable charachter. I would assume it's a sincere evaluation. 

Oh idk why they are not posting right now. This thread is a debate between different relevant individuals. They for sure can speak for themselves, we are not BK. I was just sharing my perspective of the changes and amends camelot has been attempting and it's something I have definitely expected and even mentioned to other alliances we fought last war. And if I start calling out someone that is making good efforts at rehabilitation then I am just gonna be no different than Roquentin that questioned every sincere intention to help him create the multipolar world that he destroyed within one blitz. 

lmao no. Not like an alliance's actions does not make us just like roq :P.

 

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18 minutes ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

He did. He for sure is not anymore. 

Epi still defends Coalition B when it comes up. More than sphinx but less than under is bout where he clocks in. To this day, that is.

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So after reading through, 

 

I find it interesting how much people forget or omit about this situation, espec regarding Camelot. 

 

Firstly I think everyone is trying to remember Camelot as it is now, in the war Camelot had little to no sway, was omitted from the major channels for a large portion of the war and for a decent portion was in the mid to lower 20s as far as alliances go. In fact it was common knowledge that goons wanted to roll Camelot but BK was stopping them. 

 

Second is that Camelot was involved for a period of time in a plot to end the war, with the plan being standing up with several other IQ alliances and demanding that IQ end the war. However this was stopped by tCW changing sides and North Point hitting a Camelot protectorate. I think objectively at that point not wanting to aid the people who just hit your protectorate, who refused to pay reasonable reps to de-escalate, is a reasonable thought. In hindsight it was a bad decision, considering the theft of NP bank and Epi’s involvement, however this is wrong and we are correcting our past mistakes with payments to them.

 

Next people overlook the continued behind closed door actions people took during the war, for example when IQ refused to give out terms for weeks stalling the talks, myself and Epi leaked the entirety of them to kev and or Pika in a voice call to try to help get the convo started. Not to mention countless other calls with members of that coalition where we openly were against the war. 

 

So is Camelot guilty of some stuff? for sure, we do not think we're innocent of all guilt. Early on Camelot was definitely a catalyst, Epi ran around defending IQ. At the time NPO informed them T$ and others have asked to roll Camelot so really Camelot felt it was not really left with any alternatives. 

 

However post war Camelot has rearranged the internals almost entirely, with a good amount of help from people in Rose and were truly thankful. Sure we have had our “spats” here overall Camelot is not the same alliance, we share none of the old goals of IQ and are trying to prove to the rest of the community as such. 

 

So on that note, we do apologize for the actions we took and we take full responsibility for them, however we ask the community around us to give us a chance to reinvent ourselves before you make your final decision on us. Grudges are what led to GW14, the continued bitterness between TKR / BK, the grudges and refusal (mostly on bks part) to actually discuss issues and so on. Camelot wants nothing more than to fix itself, its image and help our allies where we can. 

 

If anyone has question, i'm always willing to take DMS or you can message Aero as well

 

Edited by Azazel
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19 minutes ago, Darth Ataxia said:

What about all the people who told you that Cam was essentially BK Lite?

Yeah I think that was largely the view and something most of us thought is something we got 6 months to fix. 

 

16 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

lmao no. Not like an alliance's actions does not make us just like roq :P.

 

Camelot

Sorry I didn't get what you posted. 

 

I am not a member of Guardian p&w

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1 hour ago, Abbas Mehdi said:

Sval the leader of OWR vouched for camelot's charachter before we comitted.

I certainly laid out OWR's experience with Camelot to Mhearl.

"Vouched for" is not how I would characterise my half of the conversation.

Edited by Sval
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<~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.
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1 minute ago, Sval said:

I certainly laid out OWR's experience with Camelot to Mhearl.

"Vouched for" is not how I would characterise my half of the conversation.

Good to know. Thanks

 

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