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Rollback/Modificaton of the new war changes


Majima Goro
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Should parts of the new update be rolled back?  

138 members have voted

  1. 1. Should parts of the new update be rolled back?

    • Yes
      79
    • No
      46


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  These are the list of parts of the change that I propose be rolled back or at least modified

6 hours ago, Alex said:

The nation Score formula has been changed. This will tighten war ranges and align score determinants more with their actual gameplay value

  • Score per City increased from 50 -> 100 (after City #1)
  • Added a base +10 Score to everyone
  • Changing military unit score to be closer to actual value:
    • Soldiers: 0.0005 -> 0.0004 each
    • Tanks: 0.05 -> 0.009 each
    • Aircraft: 0.5 -> 0.2 each
    • Ships: 2 -> 0.75 each
    • Score from Missiles and Nuclear Weapons are capped at 50 each (the 51st Missile or Nuclear Weapon will not add to your nation score.)

 

6 hours ago, Alex said:

Ground Control has been changed. It no longer blocks your opponent from using 1/3 of their air force. Instead, once Ground Control has been established, all subsequent Ground Battles will destroy some of your opponent's Aircraft (based on the number of Tanks you send in battle.) This makes Ground Units somewhat of a counter to a superior air force

 

6 hours ago, Alex said:

Adjustments have been made to casualty rates. They have been calibrated based on the percentage of your daily rebuy of units that can be killed (assuming an equal city opponent, both sides having maxed-out military.) so that is how I will present the changes. Note: These are averages (expected values) given that there is a lot of randomness in battle results.

  • Avg Soldiers Killed in a Ground Battle: 80% -> 25%
  • Avg Tanks Killed in a Ground Battle: 30% -> 40%
  • Avg Aircraft Killed in an Airstrike (not dogfight): 59% -> 29%
  • Avg Ships Killed in a Naval Battle: 120% -> 53%
  • Airstrikes on Units
    • Soldiers Killed Airstrike: 43% -> 25%
    • Tanks Killed Airstrike: 43% -> 14%
    • Ships Killed Airstrike: 41% -> 34%
    • Aircraft Killed Airstrike (Dogfight): 83% -> 53%
  • Aircraft Killed by Tanks in a Ground Battle: 0% -> 42% (only after Ground Control has been established)

 

Edited by AntMan
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9 minutes ago, Changeup said:

Not necessarily rolled back, but definitely modified. I'll have a couple of threads out later.

That's actually implied but thanks for pointing that out

Will edit it to say so.

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Honestly I don't see the issue with any of the changes.

 

Yes they change how you go to war but they do this for everyone, if you have issues changing my how you operate with changes like this god help you w̶h̶e̶n̶ if you ever end up with a job.

 

Because stuff will change there with far less comprehensive explanations, and the worst bit is there's no forums to cry about it to

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Just now, Machiavelli said:

Yes they change how you go to war but they do this for everyone

Tightening of war ranges means if you have lesser nations in a particular tier, then you can never win that tier.
The score changes make it so that the war ranges are narrowed to tier levels. 
The very concept of Updeclare to drag the enemy in our ranges isnt viable since you cannot even attack people with a lot more cities than you. Even if you manage to, you will never be able to kill enough of their armies to be able to drag them into range.
The very concept of Downdeclare to help the people below your city count out to take control is dead since you cannot even attack the people with lower cities than you.
With the changes to Airstrikes and Ground Attacks, Alex has just made tanks the new planes.
We told him to nerf aircrafts. He did that. But then he made ground units overpowered. 


Yes, the war changes are for everyone. But these changes are bad for everyone.

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7 minutes ago, AntMan said:

Tightening of war ranges means if you have lesser nations in a particular tier, then you can never win that tier.
The score changes make it so that the war ranges are narrowed to tier levels. 
The very concept of Updeclare to drag the enemy in our ranges isnt viable since you cannot even attack people with a lot more cities than you. Even if you manage to, you will never be able to kill enough of their armies to be able to drag them into range.
The very concept of Downdeclare to help the people below your city count out to take control is dead since you cannot even attack the people with lower cities than you.
With the changes to Airstrikes and Ground Attacks, Alex has just made tanks the new planes.
We told him to nerf aircrafts. He did that. But then he made ground units overpowered. 


Yes, the war changes are for everyone. But these changes are bad for everyone.

Imagine that; rather than doing the exact same thing you have done for every war you have fought in this game you might for a brief period of time have to apply a little bit of thought into how you fight every now and again.

 

I can understand why you dislike it, thinking things through rather than clicking airstrike every 8 hours must be tiring for you.

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7 minutes ago, Machiavelli said:

Imagine that; rather than doing the exact same thing you have done for every war you have fought in this game you might for a brief period of time have to apply a little bit of thought into how you fight every now and again.

 

I can understand why you dislike it, thinking things through rather than clicking airstrike every 8 hours must be tiring for you.

What are you saying?
With the new changes, a maxed military c10 can declare on a c10 with 0 military, 0 infra, 0 projects

I am not demanding airstrikes be made what it used to be. 
But just manufacturing a second unit to become what aircrafts were seems too overpowered for me.

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9 minutes ago, AntMan said:

What are you saying?
With the new changes, a maxed military c10 can declare on a c10 with 0 military, 0 infra, 0 projects

That seems a little off, I only experienced a very slight change in score (like 60 points) but then again I haven't been that low in a long time. If that's the case perhaps tweaking the war ranges would help but then you'd be in here crying about how it's even further narrowing tiers in wars with another poll.

 

9 minutes ago, AntMan said:

I am not demanding airstrikes be made what it used to be. 
But just manufacturing a second unit to become what aircrafts were seems too overpowered for me.

I hate to be the one to inform you of this but; you are aware we are commenting on your post where you requested these changes be rolled back?

If the changes are rolled back what would that do to airstrikes? Would it somehow make them different to how they were before? Or would it revert them back to how they were..?

Edited by Machiavelli
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1 minute ago, Machiavelli said:

I hate to be the one to inform you of this but; you are aware we are commenting on your post where you requested these changes be rolled back?

If the changes are rolled back what would that do to airstrikes? Would it somehow make them different to how they were before? Or would it revert them back to how they were..?

I editted the rolled back part
It was suppsoed to be Rolled Back/Modified 

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Alex won't care. Alex won't listen. Alex does whatever he wants and thinks consequences don't matter. Doing these polls mean nothing. You might well be nailing jello to a tree. I do admire the gesture though...

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14 hours ago, Deulos said:

Alex won't care. Alex won't listen. Alex does whatever he wants and thinks consequences don't matter. Doing these polls mean nothing. You might well be nailing jello to a tree. I do admire the gesture though...

Honestly, this is the correct take.

I understand why people are mad at the changes. However, they will not be rollbacked. At best some of them may be modified and that's it. Alex has a track record of ignoring the community when it comes to suggestions and there's no reason to assume this wouldn't be the same.

I will once again bring up that downvotes have universal support in the community, yet they still haven't been brought back after months. Any changes over the new update will not occur.

A better use of everyone's time will be to plan around the new changes and adjust strategies and guides accordingly. 

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no issue with the new changes. We will just adapt like we always have in the past. If after a war, these changes are proved to be faulty, Alex will do another tweak. Don't sweat it kids, we survived IQ, we can certainly survive some minor score adjustments.

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Re: score ... i don't really like the changes. I would have preferred for lopsided casualty ratios to be addressed instead of stratifying the tiers even more.

Re: military, i don't love the new system, but it's better than 100% air meta.

Edited by Rossiya
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10 hours ago, Seb said:

no issue with the new changes. We will just adapt like we always have in the past. If after a war, these changes are proved to be faulty, Alex will do another tweak. Don't sweat it kids, we survived IQ, we can certainly survive some minor score adjustments.

If you think it's just minor score adjustments maybe you should spend some time in a real Alliance learning how to properly wage a war and then re read those changes for me chief.

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Love the changes.  You're no longer safe sitting on max planes only.  A good shake up for the pixel huggers.   No more NPO style planes only drag down.  I even feel a little sea water flowing in my veins. This by itself is the most likely cause of the pixel lovers tears. 

Legal Disclaimer:

My opinions do not necessarily reflect of the opinions of my alliance, allies, enemies or neutrals.

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1 hour ago, Malinok said:

Love the changes.  You're no longer safe sitting on max planes only.  A good shake up for the pixel huggers.   No more NPO style planes only drag down.  I even feel a little sea water flowing in my veins. This by itself is the most likely cause of the pixel lovers tears. 

Actually it makes the pixel huggers safer by requiring a numerical superiority in a tier to actually have a chance. Pixel huggers tend to have more massive alliances in terms of players.

 

Also, hilariously if you read the announcement thread, the people outcrying the hardest are also the most aggressive fighters. People like Seb and Epi are the ones shrugging and not caring. Pixelhuggers are the ones happy because the changes made aggression not worth the risk, your aggressive war fighters are the ones upset. 

 

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The earlier blitz system was totally fine.
The Kill Rates earlier allowed for a good blitz to wipe off someone, even if that meant you didn't have a chance cause you are sleeping.
Infact, to address that issue, Alex did introduce a change to the update time by which you can change at what time your update takes place.
Even if you had a numerical disadvantage, you could still win a war because your first strike was deadly and you took out a large part of your enemy's player force out in the first couple of hours.

With this change however, this is not so. A good blitz at most is going to take out 10-15% of your opponent's army, while due to casualty rates, you would lose the same number of units. Then the enemy with their superior numbers swamp you and you die. The reason IQ's planes only strategy was successful was because there were 200 people attacking with planes at the same time, aka, a competent blitz. If you were sloppy in your planes only approach, the enemy could insta-GC you and then their Airstrikes would be worth 2/3rd their value.

While this vote's result is quiet clear with a 64% Yes rate, here are my opinions on how to fix on this flawed system:

On 5/15/2020 at 7:03 AM, AntMan said:

 These are the list of parts of the change that I propose be rolled back or at least modified

On 5/15/2020 at 12:42 AM, Alex said:

The nation Score formula has been changed. This will tighten war ranges and align score determinants more with their actual gameplay value

  • Score per City increased from 50 -> 100 (after City #1)
  • Added a base +10 Score to everyone
  • Changing military unit score to be closer to actual value:
    • Soldiers: 0.0005 -> 0.00075 each(since soldiers will be more powerful now)[max score/city=11.25]
    • Tanks: 0.05 -> 0.075 each(since tanks are going to be more powerful now)[max score/city=93.75]
    • Aircraft: 0.5 -> 1.0 each(Planes will still remain an integral part of the first strike)[max score/city=75]
    • Ships: 2 -> 1.5 each(Ships haven't been useful anyways)[max score/city=22.5]
    • Score from Missiles and Nuclear Weapons are capped at 50 each (the 51st Missile or Nuclear Weapon will not add to your nation score.)(because sometimes, to hit people above your tier, you need the boost from missiles and nuke scores)

 

On 5/15/2020 at 12:42 AM, Alex said:

Ground Control has been changed. It no longer blocks your opponent from using 1/3 of their air force. Instead, once Ground Control has been established, all subsequent Ground Battles will destroy some of your opponent's Aircraft (based on the number of Tanks and soldiers you send in battle.) This makes Ground Units somewhat of a counter to a superior air force

 

On 5/15/2020 at 12:42 AM, Alex said:

Adjustments have been made to casualty rates. They have been calibrated based on the percentage of your daily rebuy of units that can be killed (assuming an equal city opponent, both sides having maxed-out military.) so that is how I will present the changes. Note: These are averages (expected values) given that there is a lot of randomness in battle results.

  • Avg Soldiers Killed in a Ground Battle: 80% -> 60%
  • Avg Tanks Killed in a Ground Battle: 30% -> 30%
  • Avg Aircraft Killed in an Airstrike (not dogfight): 59% -> 45%
  • Avg Ships Killed in a Naval Battle: 120% -> 80%
  • Airstrikes on Units
    • Soldiers Killed Airstrike: 43% -> 35%
    • Tanks Killed Airstrike: 43% -> 35%
    • Ships Killed Airstrike: 41% -> 35%
    • Aircraft Killed Airstrike (Dogfight): 83% -> 65%
  • Aircraft Killed by Soldiers and Tanks in a Ground Battle: 0% -> 50% (only after Ground Control has been established)(You will need max soldiers and max tanks for this. Just max soldiers will deal 22.5% damage while just max tanks will deal 27.5%)


I have made the changes in the quote blocks and bolded and underlined them. Apart from these, changes in casualty rates needs to be implemented.

I'll now explain my reasoning for the changes:
The biggest reason of crying under the last system was that there could be heavy downdeclares by people almost twice or thrice their size. That problem can be solved by increasing city scores. Plus, those declares were usually due to the whales having very low infrastructure. Having a lot of army should be punished and hence, nerfing scores on units makes no sense, especially when the new changes make it possible for people with same city counts and infrastructure levels to attack each other even when one of them has maxed out military and the other has no military at all. A zeroed c10 is not as powerful as a max military c10. Infact, I'd say, a zeroed c10 is no more powerful than a c6 with max military.

Tanks are an extremely costly unit. Smaller alliances dont have the logistics to simply arm their members with the needed steel. Hence having GC be relevant only when the opponent has tanks is simply going to hurt the poor and help the rich. Soldiers must be able to take out planes as well.  Else someone losing a war and without steel will not be able to fight someone with planes.

Since tanks and soldiers are being made overpowered, it makes sense to buff their scores. To counter this, the kill rates by planes have also been increased(from Alex's suggested limits) especially on tanks and soldiers. This will help planes to counter soldiers and tanks, making it so that someone with grounds only isn't able to just wipe off the other's air. While soldiers and tanks kill substantial amount of planes, the planes should also be able to kill soldiers and tanks in a substantial size. Not only this, kill rates by other units have also been increased. 

Score for planes, soldiers, tanks have been increased. Score for ships has been decreased. Although, I will need some suggestions from the community on whether doing this is a good idea or not. 

If anyone has any other suggestions, feel free to modify the list.

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47 minutes ago, AntMan said:

If anyone has any other suggestions, feel free to modify the list.

Change the resistance damages.

Ground attack: PV-4, MS-8, IT-12

Airstrike: PV-3, MS-6, IT-9

Naval Battle: PV-2, MS-4, IT-6

(Numbers can be subject to change, ideally test out different number formulas)

This will help better reflect the power of each unit, as well as make it possible to zero an opponent before running out of resistance.

I believe it's been proposed before to reduce the casualties, as long as you also reduce the resistance damages to compensate. In this case, the resistances also need to be changed to reflect how each unit actually affects battle. Ships can serve as an infrastructure grinder, airstrikes can hit all units and counter ground, and ground is arguably the strongest unit now due to their ability to kill planes and shred enemy ground better than planes (on top of stealing money).

Also deadass revert the city score changes or modify it to 75 score per city and/or make the unit score values an actual representation of their usefulness. Not for the sake of raiding, but for the sake of giving the losing side of a war some way of fighting back that isn't launching missiles and nukes. Alex, you should not be facilitating permawar, especially after we just went 9 months through it.

Oh yeah, and revert the other subtle plane nerfs that came before this giant update, such as the aluminum cost. Really, all the costs to units probably need to be altered to reflect their power (including gasoline/munition usage).

Edited by Hime-sama
change of wording

Look up to the sky above~

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17 minutes ago, Seb said:

the changes are alright you guys. Let's see how they respond in real conflicts first and see how we can change it for the better once we have seen the results.

You are wrong.

And people don't need to see how they respond in real conflicts to see the fairly obvious negative implications of most of the changes.

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