Rules Errata: RE: RL Transactions and Game interaction

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Original:
 

Quote

Real-World Transactions for In-Game Materials

Politics & War has a limited donation system to prevent the game from being "pay-to-win." In addition to limits on Credit usage, it is against the rules for players to make exchanges of real-life money or goods for in-game materials, including but not limited to: in-game money, and in-game resources. Examples of this type of behavior would include: sending someone real-life money for in-game money or in-game resources, purchasing someone a Steam game for in-game money or in-game resources, sending someone a gift-card for in-game money or in-game resources, and any other sort of real-world trade for in-game goods.

The punishment for real-world transactions for in-game materials will be a complete nation reset upon first offense, and a permanent ban from Politics & War upon a second offense.

 

Proposed:

Quote

Real-World Transactions for In-Game Materials

Politics & War has a limited donation system to prevent the game from being "pay-to-win." In addition to limits on Credit usage, it is against the rules for players to make exchanges of real-life money, services, or goods for in-game materials, including but not limited to: in-game money, and in-game resources. Examples of this type of behavior would include: sending someone real-life money for in-game money or in-game resources, purchasing someone a Steam game for in-game money or in-game resources, sending someone a gift-card for in-game money or in-game resources, and any other sort of real-world trade for in-game goods. Goods is hereby defined as any content or material transaction that is external to game context. This means no making art or media of any kind for in game favors or actions. Art, though often considered a service, is considered a good by this definition in the form of content.
 

The punishment for real-world transactions for in-game materials will be a complete nation reset upon first offense, and a permanent ban from Politics & War upon a second offense.

To be absolutely and abundantly clear: Any transaction from the real world that is not processed by the game's payment system and part of a payment towards this games maintenance, profit, or function, that affects internal game play; will be considered in violation of this standard. Only transactions THROUGH this system should result in an in-game benefit.

 

Logic: The concept of what is a good is not universal. Some think hard objects. Some consider art a service. Oh, annother errata.. services.. may be more difficult to tackle because simple community access can be a service. The last line I've submitted leaves little room at all for any kind of interpretation. If it's not processed through the site, via the payment system, they should not be doing it for an in-game gain.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Wanted to note I've done my final edit and am finally happy with the verbiage. So feel free to post your thoughts. I won't be changing the OP from this post on.

They used a loophole.. wrong on them. The loophole, however, did exist. This closes the loophole so it cannot even be vaguely interpreted in any other way. It makes it so the terminology of the rule more fits the spirit of the rule.

Also, Alex, you have my sympathy in policing the piranha.. that's what these communities are, vats full of them. Tearing at each other and anything they can make go boom.  If they find a crack they will squeeze through it, a fracture, they will wedge it open. This is true for all of them, despite their propaganda or good intentions, I've seen it repeat in game after game. The worst part is they all have different languages backgrounds and histories. so you get the full gambit of the human response and one language for them all to consider (unless you stretch out into localization). Language is humanity's most fickle of beasts. 

Mortar must be packed good when it comes to the rules, or they will make a mess. The good news is your other rules do not leave much to ask about. This is the only place where there may be any vagueness and this edit should remove it, hopefully permanently. I personally would not have even thought about using art and translation services (artistically other than writing my talent is .. lackluster) to get folks to join the game and support us.. so this whole fiasco has me surprised as well. Trying to anticipate everything is just about impossible, so best you can do is fix the holes once it's spotted.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Lu Xun]

Have fun, Maelstrom. I'll enjoy the shitstorm, or enjoy watching this just get deleted.

[HeroofTime55]

I submit that the rules were clear as they were, and that this proposal would confuse such common and legitimate in-game transactions such as paying in-game money for another player to, for instance, design a national flag for your nation, or produce alliance-oriented assets, with cases of obvious cheating.

I submit that the rules as written are NOT confusing and do NOT leave any room for loopholes or misinterpretation, as, in the case at hand, NPO was also not confused as to the meaning of the rules; When Alex asked, instead of admitting to what they were doing, they denied it.  If they felt it was within the rules, they would have been open and perhaps explained their interpretation of the rules to Alex.  It's the fact that they hid it which demonstrates that there is actually no confusion and that the rules are clear as they are, without the need to enforce arcane addenda that would actually harm the game. 

I do not think Maelstrom is being disingenuous with this suggestion, I simply think it is a misguided effort to rationalize why so many of his years-long close friends have had to suffer severe consequences.  And I sympathize with that.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

14 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I do not think Maelstrom is being disingenuous with this suggestion, I simply think it is a misguided effort to rationalize why so many of his years-long close friends have had to suffer severe consequences.  And I sympathize with that.

There is no rationalization. I have said there are problems on both ends of this. If hubris on both ends repeats. then this problem will repeat itself, just with another party.

You may mark my words on that, and I  will look forward, but with the regret of foresight to my prophecy being fulfilled.

I submit that Hero has ignored the post from other Pacificans that they did have a conversation with Alex about this very thing. Their understanding passed like ships in the night in a midst of a fog with neither recognizing the other. Take my wisdom.. or don't.. and suffer. The change is simple, and leaves no room for error. Alex can just say, "Look at the rules." No discord chat required.

I offer this purely of good will to improve a community based on my understanding on how player/rules, and game interactions work. I gift this based on my experience. If that experience is ignored out of some misguided attempt at propaganda, when I don't genuinely care about the matter, do so at your own peril.

I barely play this game. I am here because friends are. I do not have a pony in this circus except to see people have a better time and to have better fights. My nation, exists in a state now, that even if all the worlds end except the real, it would still be.. thus I could care less about these colonies on virtual worlds of text.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sir Scarfalot]

The rules were, are, and remain perfectly clear, as was the nature of the violation that NPO was entirely guilty of. NPO knew perfectly well what they were doing was wrong, as evidenced by the fact that they ineffectually tried to cover it up. NPO furthermore knew equally well that what they were doing additionally violated international law.

Don't even try to rationalize what you were doing, don't even try to weasel your way out of responsibility.

What Alex said was clearly no permission, not even close. He was abundantly clear that he did not want to see that behavior happen, and he was answering with the understanding that the RMT rule was still posted and still very obvious. He wanted to make it mechanically impossible to do what you did... that is not by any sane definition equivalent to stating that it was allowable. Not to mention that the question was deeply disingenuous from the beginning, as it was asking to clarify a grey area that your conspiracy was WELL outside of from the start.

Reroll. That's your last and best option.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Sir Scarfalot

[Maelstrom Vortex]

6 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

The rules were, are, and remain perfectly clear, as was the nature of the violation that NPO was entirely guilty of. NPO knew perfectly well what they were doing was wrong, as evidenced by the fact that they ineffectually tried to cover it up. NPO furthermore knew equally well that what they were doing additionally violated international law.

Don't even try to rationalize what you're doing, don't even try to weasel your way out of responsibility.

What Alex said was clearly no permission, not even close. He was abundantly clear that he did not want to see that behavior happen, and he was answering with the understanding that the RMT rule was still posted and still very obvious. He wanted to make it mechanically impossible to do what you did... that is not by any sane definition equivalent to stating that it was allowable. Not to mention that the question was deeply disingenuous from the beginning, as it was asking to clarify a grey area that your conspiracy was WELL outside of from the start.

Reroll. That's your last and best option.

Sir, you re assentially biased hubris incarnate. That said.. my reply other than this will be accordingly silent other than : "Read the logs and try to pretend you are not aggressively anti-NPO and think OOC, unless your bias extends beyond character in which I have no cure for that."

Reiteration: I am thinking as a game administrator would. I am offering you an ounce of prevention to prevent a future world of additional pain from another source. That is all. I will not be responding to future posts in this thread as of this point. As I said, no horse in this race. Improvements will happen.. or.. they won't.. and the same disease may strike again, proving me inerrant-ly.. correct, as I so love to be and oft am.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sir Scarfalot]

1 minute ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Sir, you re assentially biased hubris incarnate. That said.. my reply other than this will be accordingly silent other than : "Read the logs and try to pretend you are not aggressively anti-NPO and think OOC, unless your bias extends beyond character in which I have no cure for that."

I read the logs. They're utterly ironclad. Your own bias and hubris is the only thing that is preventing you from seeing that blatant truth, which is why I encourage everyone to ignore you and your extreme bias and hubris.

You, not I, are the one that had your alliance decapitated, your cheated funds annihilated, and half a dozen or more of your compatriots perma-banned for criminal libel against the admin. You, not I, are the one that literally everyone without a vested interest in the case disagrees with.

You, not I, are the one deluded by absurd biases.

Reroll.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

26 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

I read the logs. They're utterly ironclad. Your own bias and hubris is the only thing that is preventing you from seeing that blatant truth, which is why I encourage everyone to ignore you and your extreme bias and hubris.

You, not I, are the one that had your alliance decapitated, your cheated funds annihilated, and half a dozen or more of your compatriots perma-banned for criminal libel against the admin. You, not I, are the one that literally everyone without a vested interest in the case disagrees with.

You, not I, are the one deluded by absurd biases.

Reroll.

Your problem.. Sir, is I did nothing. Nice try. You go re-roll.. being a 0 suits you better. Gah.. you got me.. baited into another reply. YOu win this time. Heck I thought you already had me on ignore. I usually can't expect you to be rational.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 18, 2021 by Epi

[Maelstrom Vortex]

6 minutes ago, Epi said:

It'd be nice If steam key lotteries and other game give aways were given an exception in this. As I'm aware a lot of larger alliances do this.

As a community thing, not necessarily forcing them to farm. Sk, Rose, NPO, Syndi, TKR... Pretty sure they've all done those at some point. Some more frequently than others. 

I can understand that desire, that'd be up to Alex of course, but I could still see a potential for abuse. It'd also make the current ban and remedy in recent moderation action somewhat hypocritical as essentially a service/good as incentive for membership/participation that is alleged to have monetary value  was  alleged to have been exchanged off-site was the cause of the recent set of bans and moderation actions. That said.. no difference between supposedly providing novels and definitely providing steam keys except the latter is absolutely confirmed to have occurred.

I say alleged because I've read the material and there is no concrete evidence the novels were ever provided, please note that I am trying to remain somewhat neutral and simply and observing I have no solid facts on that matter, despite Alex's assertion, he may be convinced, but.. there isn't any real proof. But that's enough for him, I'm just saying how such would look in relation to recent moderation.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

Just now, Maelstrom Vortex said:

I say alleged because I've read the material and there is no concrete evidence the novels were ever provided, please note that I am trying to remain somewhat neutral and simply and observing I have no solid facts on that matter, despite Alex's assertion, he may be convinced, but.. there isn't any real proof. But that's enough for him, I'm just saying how such would look in relation to recent moderation.

Can see you in court now, Yes your honour he had the knife in his hand, yes he was standing over the body, yes his finger prints was on the face of the victim, yes he admitted to stabbing the victim however there is no concrete evidence that he did in fact stab the victim. You might all be convinced however where is the real proof, my client just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

2 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

Can see you in court now, Yes your honour he had the knife in his hand, yes he was standing over the body, yes his finger prints was on the face of the victim, yes he admitted to stabbing the victim however there is no concrete evidence that he did in fact stab the victim. You might all be convinced however where is the real proof, my client just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Except in the court I might have the benefit of a jury without biases, no? 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Guest Epi]

1

Edited February 18, 2021 by Epi

[Maelstrom Vortex]

1 minute ago, Epi said:

I won't get into the debate around gpwc, my feelings on the issue are complicated. And yes it could be abused, but I don't want these communities punished for the practice. Which might happen if a vague ruling isn't in place. 

I rest my case.

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

24 minutes ago, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Except in the court I might have the benefit of a jury without biases, no? 

You had that Benefit at the start by telling Alex what was truly happening and not lying about it.

[namukara]

A little confused as to why people are criticising the OP for this.

Yes, it was clear that what the NPO was doing was wrong, as they knew, however clarifying the rules can't hurt.

[Sir Scarfalot]

8 hours ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

You had that Benefit at the start by telling Alex what was truly happening and not lying about it.

Hell, Alex went well out of his way to give NPO absolutely every advantage possible. Even the bans were temporary ones, when by the rules and precedent they should have been completely permanent.

8 hours ago, namukara said:

A little confused as to why people are criticising the OP for this.

Yes, it was clear that what the NPO was doing was wrong, as they knew, however clarifying the rules can't hurt.

We're criticising the OP for being disingenuous. The rules are, and have been, perfectly clear from the start, so there's really nothing to clarify.

[Viselli]

No need to change the rule it is already very clear.

[HeroofTime55]

11 hours ago, Epi said:

It'd be nice If steam key lotteries and other game give aways were given an exception in this. As I'm aware a lot of larger alliances do this.

As a community thing, not necessarily forcing them to farm. Sk, Rose, NPO, Syndi, TKR... Pretty sure they've all done those at some point. Some more frequently than others. 

I think this depends.  Much as the GWPC issue very much depended on using human judgement.  If an alliance is doing a free giveaway within their ranks, I think that's fine - Assuming that the players are not joining your alliance merely for the steam giveaway, and have a real interest in PnW and your alliance, it would be a stretch to argue it's real world trading.  However, if someone is going around charging in-game money or resources for a lottery ticket for something outside the game, then that is real-word trading, pretty cut and dry.  At the end of the day, one can use common sense to determine what is or is not within these rules.  NPO failed to use anything resembling judgement.

Edited February 8, 2020 by HeroofTime55