Popular Post Sir Scarfalot Posted February 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 6, 2020 There's a principle in law, known as "Unclean hands". It's really fairly simple; if the accuser in a case can be shown to have been acting unethically or illegally, then that means the accuser isn't entitled to a legal remedy to their complaint. For a simple example, let's say that Al is suing Bob, claiming that Bob punched him in the mouth and knocked out a tooth, requiring Al to get medical attention. A simple enough personal injury suit, Bob should pay, right? Well, specifics matter. Bob's defense might be that Al was operating with 'unclean hands', due to Al trespassing in Bob's home uninvited. If true, then that changes everything: Bob's defense is solid and Al has no grounds to complain. (Other doctrines may apply depending on jurisdiction and who paid off the judge most recently, results may vary) Another principle in law is "Conspiracy". That word has been used and misunderstood in recent months, and now that it's come up here I thought I might offer a bit of explanation to it. Conspiracy is not a crime, rather it is a description of why someone's guilty of a crime. Simply put, if there's an agreement between two parties to commit an illegal act, then they are "conspiring" to do it, and therefore both parties are complicit in the totality of the crime, whatever their individual part in it may be. For a simple example, let's say Al and Bob, now having made up and wanting to pay off the tooth implants, decide to shoplift from a hardware store. Al has the idea to distract the staff by being a huge drama queen on one end of the store while Bob takes the opportunity to bag up all the... I dunno, copper wire, from the other side of the store. After Bob makes his escape with the booty, they head to the scrapyard and sell the metal. Look I'm not trying to win a pulitzer here In this situation, both Al and Bob would be guilty of shoplifting, even though Bob was the one that actually removed the property from the premises. Al doesn't get to walk just because what he actually did wasn't illegal. A simple enough concept. So, what do these two concepts have to do with NPO, Goons, BK, GotG, Camelot and the rest of IQ? Well, the crimes committed by NPO and conspirators were really quite simple compared to how this kind of drama usually goes down IRL in crime and politics (often interchangeable). Copyright law is clear: Intellectual property has real, monetary value. Unauthorized distribution of that property injures the holder of that property, just like unauthorized shoplifting copper wire from a store injures the store. Simple enough. There are grey areas involving parody, scholarly efforts, criticism, inability to acquire the media legitimately, etc, but none of that is relevant to the salient point that Intellectual property has monetary value. Now, while it may be technically illegal to receive pirated/scanlated media without paying for it, the publishers will quite simply never bother to prosecute against the recipient. Getting the stuff is de-facto legal. Nobody's going to do anything about your pirated vidya or scanlations. Rather, publishers will, quite justifiably, take serious action against whoever is providing the material. Whether or not the one illegally distributing the matieral is doing it for profit, they're "selling" something that doesn't belong to them. The owners of an intellectual property have the right to charge for or deny access to their own stuff. Therefore, it's the distribution of pirated media above all else that's in the wrong, not the consumption of it. In this case, it is therefore very clear that NPO were directly operating with unclean hands by way of distributing pirate media. For that, actions can and should be taken, but that is beyond the scope of this game and this forum; distributing pirate media isn't within Sheepy's jurisdiction and therefore he cannot (and has not) taken any actions due to that. What he has taken action on is the concomitant (that means 'at the same time') violation of his own terms of service that the scanlation deals represented. Pirating scanlations isn't against P&W rules... buying P&W nations with scanlations however very much is. The conspirators, who have conveniently shown themselves to be so by virtue of complaining about their losses, have offered some defenses. I'll respond to a few of the less moronic ones. > "The scanlations didn't have any monetary value, therefore it wasn't a true 'real world trade'." - This argument falls apart on many levels, mostly involving unclean hands. Intellectual property has value, and even if it didn't, a trade was still taking place. The main conspirator has in fact been proven to have advised his 'customers' to avoid discussing the scanlations in public, citing that would be incriminating. Which of course means that they knew full well that what they were doing was quite illegal, and that they knew full well that they'd be "in big trouble with Korean authorities". (Accessorily, you'd be in big trouble with authorities in basically every western civilization, since pirating media is a crime almost everywhere. Maybe you'll be fine in Sealand.) > "Every alliance and most radio shows etc. provide access to member channels, out of game awards, etc, and what we did is no different." - Again, this falls apart like a cheap jacket due to unclean hands. For a start, the conspirators knew perfectly well what they were doing was wrong. On top of that, there's a simple principle: Giving a friend a gift, without expectation of exchange, is a gift. Providing a service in exchange for something else is a trade. Some specific things were called out as well. For example, some people have been paying in-game currency for out of game services, notably stuff like @Ripper drawing a picture for $5m or @KillzBob making a propaganda video for a few million. The difference there is in those situations, in-game stuff was used to buy... in-game stuff. In this case, out of game things were used to buy in-game stuff. Those are not the same thing. Your profile picture and your propaganda aren't outside of the game. As for the steam games distributed by radio shows, that's more questionable, especially if they were raffled off involving in-game currency, but either way that simply doesn't compare to selling illegally copied media in exchange for the existence of tax farms that otherwise would never have existed at all. (That steam game giveaways are kosher under Discord's terms of service and international law and the scanlations are explicitly not, on both counts, doesn't change the P&W rules, but it does show that one is operating with relatively clean hands and the other one is not.) > "Alex knew about the situation and gave it his approval, and now he's going back on his word" - Unclean hands. Beyond that, while I can definitely see how wishful thinking may have resulted in Alex's statement at the time being misunderstood, he'd made a noncommittal response at best. Besides, what he said clearly showed that he was NOT okay with the idea in any way, and was intending to create mechanics that would make it not a moderation issue. That's distinct from stating that he was cool with it, as should have been blindingly obvious. If you deluded yourselves into thinking that you weren't in the wrong, that's your problem and more to the point doesn't absolve you of guilt. The rule against RMT has been and remains clear and common to every single one of these games I've played, and I've seen this kind of crap happen many many times. And so have you, if you've been on the internet even a tenth as long as you claim to have been @Frawley . > "Alex is doing this at Coalition A's behest, he's taking a side in the war, reeeee" - Nobody was permanently banned. No-one was permanently banned. Think about that for a minute. > "Everybody cheats and everyone complaining about cheating is a cheater and karma will come and bite you in the ass too" - This argument again? My rebuttal: Grow up. Grow out of your immature, and demonstrably false, world view. Grow up and learn that there's more to the game than winning or losing. Grow up and learn that losing isn't so bad that it is better to cheat to avoid it. Grow up and learn that competent play in a game with at least some balance is sufficient to excel, even to the point of outwitting and outplaying actual cheaters in many cases. Grow up and learn that playing honestly means that both your allies and even your rivals can ultimately become your friends. Grow up, and maybe one day you'll realize that while cheating may give a temporary advantage, it will always undercut the sense of achievement that honest excellence provides. Grow up and maybe one day you'll actually find out what that feels like, even. Alrighty, that's enough of a scarfydump for now, laters guys~ 5 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denison Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Can I get a tldr? Quote Janny Larpers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatorcock Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 Ah yes, another post about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curufinwe Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 It's over, Scarfy - most of Acadia is leaving, GoG and BK are disbanding over Alex's decision and it's likely you'll see others depart soon enough. Go to bed. No one cares about your arguments at this point ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viselli Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 When Nova gov got money into the offshore in a way that broke the rules they got banned permanently, NPO got off easy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulcrum Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 If the leaders of these alliances want to be pathetic that's up to them. But let's not get the good, ordinary members of these alliances who didn't get asked to get sucked into this mess. To use what was said in this post, they weren't a part of the conspiracy. To the members dragged into these unfortunate circumstances, we are with you! We harbor no hard feelings toward you! I think all of us former war opponents agree with me that you are welcome to our alliances! Quote 2016/04/26 – Unreleased Bad Company advert, circa 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 12 minutes ago, Fulcrum said: If the leaders of these alliances want to be pathetic that's up to them. But let's not get the good, ordinary members of these alliances who didn't get asked to get sucked into this mess. To use what was said in this post, they weren't a part of the conspiracy. To the members dragged into these unfortunate circumstances, we are with you! We harbor no hard feelings toward you! I think all of us former war opponents agree with me that you are welcome to our alliances! Well, like I said (admittedly buried way deep but still), there's no real crime in picking up some pirated comics. That's a bit more relevant, either way I'm saying I agree with that sentiment. 21 minutes ago, Denison said: Can I get a tldr? npo man bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Elijah Mikaelson Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 46 minutes ago, Curufinwe said: It's over, Scarfy - most of Acadia is leaving, GoG and BK are disbanding over Alex's decision and it's likely you'll see others depart soon enough. Go to bed. No one cares about your arguments at this point ? So all those who benefited from NPO cheating are quitting due to Alex banning those who cheated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 Just now, Bjorn Ironside said: So all those who benefited from NPO cheating are quitting due to Alex banning those who cheated. So, a bunch of cheaters have left because they no longer feel they are allowed to cheat? ....How is this a thing people have mixed feelings about...? I mean, damn fine work, @Alex, you've managed to in one solid stroke both remove and discourage cheating. That's one incredible win! And all without permanently banning anyone? They're just doing it to themselves? Absolutely impressive. You managed to be both completely fair, unreasonably lenient, and yet stern enough to ensure a clean game for... well, a few seconds probably, but getting to that point at all is an unprecedented achievement in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curufinwe Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Bjorn Ironside said: So all those who benefited from NPO cheating are quitting due to Alex banning those who cheated. You got us - @TheNG was the true mastermind all along. Roq was just the fall guy. You've cracked the code! On the upside, I no longer care if you pay back the cash Gorge gave you, so have a good life, you magnificent dynamo of a man. 1 hour ago, Sir Scarfalot said: So, a bunch of cheaters have left because they no longer feel they are allowed to cheat? ....How is this a thing people have mixed feelings about...? I mean, damn fine work, @Alex, you've managed to in one solid stroke both remove and discourage cheating. That's one incredible win! And all without permanently banning anyone? They're just doing it to themselves? Absolutely impressive. You managed to be both completely fair, unreasonably lenient, and yet stern enough to ensure a clean game for... well, a few seconds probably, but getting to that point at all is an unprecedented achievement in my experience. We'll always have that slayyvery rant you did. That one was special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted February 6, 2020 Author Share Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Curufinwe said: You got us - @TheNG was the true mastermind all along. Roq was just the fall guy. You've cracked the code! On the upside, I no longer care if you pay back the cash Gorge gave you, so have a good life, you magnificent dynamo of a man. We'll always have that slayyvery rant you did. That one was special. At least GWPC were being paid for it, so I can't call them slaves. Meanwhile, the rest of your allies? They'll always have that slayyvery rant, and it will always remain special to them. For one reason or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyster Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Curufinwe said: It's over, Scarfy - most of Acadia is leaving, GoG and BK are disbanding over Alex's decision and it's likely you'll see others depart soon enough. Go to bed. No one cares about your arguments at this point ? You sir tried to kill our communities, now you try to kill your own. Have you got no limits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curufinwe Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 58 minutes ago, alyster said: You sir tried to kill our communities, now you try to kill your own. Have you got no limits? Actually, we're keeping our community together and even inviting former members to rejoin us (if they're so inclined) as we explore opportunities in other games. We're simply divesting BK itself from Orbis. It's not really the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyster Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Curufinwe said: Actually, we're keeping our community together and even inviting former members to rejoin us (if they're so inclined) as we explore opportunities in other games. We're simply divesting BK itself from Orbis. It's not really the same thing. We've all heard that one before. - I will never forget you. - Lets stay in touch! 1 year later.... - Who's that on my Discord / Facebook? Instead of still forcing people out of the game how about you swallow the bill. If you couldn't win with cheats it's time to sue for peace. I ensure you, unlike you, we're not interested in beating someone who's so devasteted. I know that part may be a shocker. But Coal A is different. Edited February 6, 2020 by alyster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Curufinwe Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, alyster said: We've all heard that one before. - I will never forget you. - Lets stay in touch! 1 year later.... - Who's that on my Discord / Facebook? Instead of still forcing people out of the game how about you swallow the bill. If you couldn't win with cheats it's time to sue for peace. I ensure you, unlike you, we're not interested in beating someone who's so devasteted. I know that part may be a shocker. But Coal A is different. Nah, we're good. Thanks for the advice though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 5 hours ago, Curufinwe said: Actually, we're keeping our community together and even inviting former members to rejoin us (if they're so inclined) as we explore opportunities in other games. We're simply divesting BK itself from Orbis. It's not really the same thing. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limbuwan Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 The most shocking thing is NPO gov being banned but their prots is talking about disbanding even though noone is pointing fingers at them for cheating all because of their paranoia that they'll be used as punching bag for years to come. Maybe they should have just changed their leaders and make way for new era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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