Guest Karl VII Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 9 hours ago, Akuryo said: This would be a sound argument. Would be, if the games job was to perfectly emulate real life. Which it isn't, it's a Game and requires balancing to make things as equal as possible for all players. Even then, in that hypothetical, baseball would then removed for not emulating real life enough. ? Yes a game requires balancing. Baseball is a way for younger/smaller nations and alliances to keep up with whales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Bjorn Ironside said: You are saying this is based on political bias, then tell me whats wrong with removing the money baseball makes? Lets keep baseball but it has its own money, it has zero effect on the game, why is this not ok? Because it's: A. Not game breaking. B. It's completely balanced. C. Players are actually playing the game while playing baseball, increasing server traffic and earning the game revenue via the ads. Also to tag on, in all the suggestions regarding beige the main argument against its removal is the ability to be able to rebuild or fight back in wars. Removing baseball earnings does stop the tactic of baseballing to rebuy military if you are blockaded which means Nations can fight back even when blockaded. Which funnily enough you are happy to argue is a solid reason to not remove beige in those threads. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Also to tag on, in all the suggestions regarding beige the main argument against its removal is the ability to be able to rebuild or fight back in wars. Removing baseball earnings does stop the tactic of baseballing to rebuy military if you are blockaded which means Nations can fight back even when blockaded. Which funnily enough you are happy to argue is a solid reason to not remove beige in those threads. Blockading doesn't even make sense for an argument. Maybe if a nation was eating a ton of nukes, missiles, and/or air bombings. At best people in port cities would be hiding in shelters from ocean bombardment. A navy surrounding a nation wouldn't stop the people in the nation from working and going to entertainment. Cities usually hike up tax rates to pay for stadiums being built and such so sports teams use them, which then people go to, it increases economical commerce in that region if it's popular, which then leads to gains from taxing. In this case you can assume the nation itself is the investor. I don't mind the rest of the game, as fighting can be fun, but baseball is what I like. I didn't have any alliance pay to build it up, and I still invest in it out of my own expense. The only thing I ever got from an alliance was 11 cities. I play other games and do other things with my time, and baseball is one reason I don't just ignore PW or effectively become a permabot for an AA. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namukara Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 38 minutes ago, Dami said: Blockading doesn't even make sense for an argument. Maybe if a nation was eating a ton of nukes, missiles, and/or air bombings. At best people in port cities would be hiding in shelters from ocean bombardment. A navy surrounding a nation wouldn't stop the people in the nation from working and going to entertainment. Cities usually hike up tax rates to pay for stadiums being built and such so sports teams use them, which then people go to, it increases economical commerce in that region if it's popular, which then leads to gains from taxing. In this case you can assume the nation itself is the investor. I don't mind the rest of the game, as fighting can be fun, but baseball is what I like. I didn't have any alliance pay to build it up, and I still invest in it out of my own expense. The only thing I ever got from an alliance was 11 cities. I play other games and do other things with my time, and baseball is one reason I don't just ignore PW or effectively become a permabot for an AA. Well then, it could be argued that under a blockade, small amounts of resources could be airdropped into a nation, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric the Red II Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I've played a bunch this week as I'm trying to level my team and had a couple new players. Some money went to tips, including two enemy nations. Most went into the team. I'm historically millions in the hole and even at this pace of play it will take awhile to break even but even that's not true since I've bootstrapped my team most has gone into the team. What hasn't been mentioned is that investment itself is ephemeral. Players retire and you have to do it again, at least every 90 days and generally less. Through the game mechanics much of baseball money is already contained inside of baseball. A large part of what doesn't stay in baseball gets removed from the game via bills or military purchases. How is baseball easier and less honest than raiding inactives? It's not. Resources are worth more and it's a far more durable wealth. This anti-baseball argument is all just a straw man to get a nerf for whales since underdogs can make a little cash on baseball to keep the lights on and stay in the fight. *sighs. Oh the irony 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 >People literally saying "I donated therefore do not remove this feature I like" >People literally changing the game via scripting and bending every rule possible just so they can say "It's technically not cheating" >People comparing baseball to a proletariat struggle against 'the whales who own all the capital' @Alex this thread is the perfect example of blackmail, begging, threatening, crying, and "totally-not-cheating" all wrapped up into a neat little package. How many game rules will be bent over backwards before you take a hard-line stance against cheaters who take advantage of loopholes and technicalities? We've mathematically already shown how baseball can quintuple a nation's natural income. How is it fair that people who hasn't even built their nation up can make more money than most nations in the game by simply spamming a cookie clicker? The debate is dead at this point, there is no further logic to draw out. All that's left is emotional appeals, threats, and blackmail. I hope you see the writing on the wall this time but this is the 10th thread about baseball in the past couple of months, so I'm beginning to lose hope. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bartholomew Roberts said: >People literally saying "I donated therefore do not remove this feature I like" >People literally changing the game via scripting and bending every rule possible just so they can say "It's technically not cheating" >People comparing baseball to a proletariat struggle against 'the whales who own all the capital' >Pretty sure I saw one person already literally saying "I'll quit donating if feature I hate isn't removed" >A button size apparently is some crazy hacking problem >Whales salty they can't utterly repress the proles and their sycophants agree. It's a fun little side game that newer players, excluding GPWC because ridiculous numbers, and existing players enjoy on the side. The feature really isn't even the issue here. Apologies if some of us like a little cool off fun on the side of waiting on turns to roll through. I don't really care if the game is nerfed further to be honest, but it's hardly even an issue despite people are making a massive salty deal over. If baseball was so broken, I'd be a big bad blue whale already. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I totally could get behind making it into hockey though instead. Edited January 24, 2020 by Dami 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Bartholomew Roberts said: >People literally saying "I donated therefore do not remove this feature I like" >People literally changing the game via scripting and bending every rule possible just so they can say "It's technically not cheating" >People comparing baseball to a proletariat struggle against 'the whales who own all the capital' @Alex this thread is the perfect example of blackmail, begging, threatening, crying, and "totally-not-cheating" all wrapped up into a neat little package. How many game rules will be bent over backwards before you take a hard-line stance against cheaters who take advantage of loopholes and technicalities? We've mathematically already shown how baseball can quintuple a nation's natural income. How is it fair that people who hasn't even built their nation up can make more money than most nations in the game by simply spamming a cookie clicker? The debate is dead at this point, there is no further logic to draw out. All that's left is emotional appeals, threats, and blackmail. I hope you see the writing on the wall this time but this is the 10th thread about baseball in the past couple of months, so I'm beginning to lose hope. Let's not pretend it's a new feature and only new Nations can utilise it. It's been here for years, it is completely balanced and it is equal for everyone. No one is disadvantaged by baseball unless you make the choice not to play it. Find me another mechanic in this game that can be said the same of. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeeeet Ronny D Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Karl VII said: Yes a game requires balancing. Baseball is a way for younger/smaller nations and alliances to keep up with whales. Keep up with whales? You guys grow significantly faster than we do, because our city costs exponentially out pace our daily income. My next city costs 1.8 billion, yours costs 140 million. And using your nation as an example, you being at 15 cities and close to 1200 days old, that is not a game balance problem, that is a player choice issue. (I had 26-27 cities when my nation was your age) As for baseball, i could care less, if someone wants to spend hours clicking buttons at their computer to make small amounts of money over and over again, go for it, as long as they are doing it, and not using some sort of bot to do it for them. If you want to grow by out efforting your competition, more power to you. Edited January 24, 2020 by Sweeeeet Ronny D 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Just now, Sweeeeet Ronny D said: Keep up with whales? You guys grow significantly faster than we do, because our city costs exponentially out pace our daily income. My next city costs 1.8 billion, yours costs 140 million. And using your nation as an example, you being at 15 cities and close to 1200 days old, that is not a game balance problem, that is a player choice issue. (I had 26-27 cities when my nation was your age) If you dedicate time to playing baseball, by the time they catch up to you, you'll still be ahead with those billions of hard cold cash you get from playing it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightside Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Like Alex has shown. Baseball is adding 100-150mil a day to the game. That really is negligible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HARPER.txt Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Did I just read SRD complain about growth what is this 2015?? the games economic system is broken as hell on its own, and yous want to have a fit over a sideshow alley mechanic that BOTH sides utilise (for fun and otherwise) and also exploit just to make $ during blockades for e.g? every day I lose more faith in this trashpile/"game" the "community" keeps burning and changing the mechanics/removing them for self serving sh*t get this crying crap about things that are actually left in this game people enjoy and that you haven't burnt to sh*t yet tf outta here / 2 1 Quote -SAXON- -Warband Leader of the Nordic Sea Raiders- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Expects Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Baseball is fine, the 1k games a day does its job, if people want to spend an hour playing their 1k of allotted games, leave them to it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frawley Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 15 hours ago, Menace said: Since Alex removed keno and the other side games for having too much of an effect by generating money, stopping baseball from generating money is the next logical step. The suggestion of keeping the game, but having the money created through baseball only be used for baseball upgrades and baseball team customization is a good compromise. Player that enjoy baseball can continue to play, while keeping the balance of the game at large. Alex removed Keno because the code underlying it was broken, and certain players used it to spawn money into the game. Had keno actually been secure, it would have had no reason for deletion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said: >People literally saying "I donated therefore do not remove this feature I like" >People literally changing the game via scripting and bending every rule possible just so they can say "It's technically not cheating" >People comparing baseball to a proletariat struggle against 'the whales who own all the capital' @Alex this thread is the perfect example of blackmail, begging, threatening, crying, and "totally-not-cheating" all wrapped up into a neat little package. How many game rules will be bent over backwards before you take a hard-line stance against cheaters who take advantage of loopholes and technicalities? We've mathematically already shown how baseball can quintuple a nation's natural income. How is it fair that people who hasn't even built their nation up can make more money than most nations in the game by simply spamming a cookie clicker? The debate is dead at this point, there is no further logic to draw out. All that's left is emotional appeals, threats, and blackmail. I hope you see the writing on the wall this time but this is the 10th thread about baseball in the past couple of months, so I'm beginning to lose hope. Raiding and trading can also "quintuple a nation's natural income" if they are active enough. One of the reasons I'm a whale now is that when I was a smaller nation I boosted my income significantly via trading. If someone is willing to invest at least an hour, probably more, to max out their games and make ~20 mill, I say let them. It's roughly the equivalent of selling a credit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroofTime55 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Tiberius said: In the reports forum there is Baseball bot report and Alex says in there that there is player support from the surveys to keep it as it is. Baseball is completely balanced and it isnt restricted to tiers, certain playerbase. It is something that many players enjoy about the game and in some instances the only thing that keeps them playing. Everyone can play and you dont need to put much effort into earning the revenue. When you list an alliance in a suggestion and those opposed to that alliance then come in and support said suggestion, it is obvious that you want to change baseball for political reasons/vendetta against that alliance. To be clear, players don't enjoy baseball, they enjoy getting a free 22 million per day. GOONS have admitted to (at least) creating a manipulation of the game page to turn PnW into essentially cookie clicker. The question is, do you want this game to be Politics and War, or do you want it to be a competitive clicker hero game? The rewards from a simple clicking game are far too high. It is in need of at least a substantial nerf or overhaul. Edit to avoid double posting: comparisons to raiding are a bit silly. Raiding is war, which is half of the name of this game. And picking safe targets and defending yourself if you screw up is not the same as the mindless, consequence free, zero effort free money of playing cookie clicker (in the best case scenario where they aren't botting) Edited January 24, 2020 by HeroofTime55 1 Quote Worst Poster Ever (2011) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrienne Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said: >People literally saying "I donated therefore do not remove this feature I like" >People literally changing the game via scripting and bending every rule possible just so they can say "It's technically not cheating" >People comparing baseball to a proletariat struggle against 'the whales who own all the capital' @Alex this thread is the perfect example of blackmail, begging, threatening, crying, and "totally-not-cheating" all wrapped up into a neat little package. How many game rules will be bent over backwards before you take a hard-line stance against cheaters who take advantage of loopholes and technicalities? We've mathematically already shown how baseball can quintuple a nation's natural income. How is it fair that people who hasn't even built their nation up can make more money than most nations in the game by simply spamming a cookie clicker? The debate is dead at this point, there is no further logic to draw out. All that's left is emotional appeals, threats, and blackmail. I hope you see the writing on the wall this time but this is the 10th thread about baseball in the past couple of months, so I'm beginning to lose hope. No one is bending the rules at all. No one's tool is remotely against the rules if we're following Alex's general guideline here: "bots that make the game a bit more convenient (making a withdrawal via a Discord interface rather than an in-game interface, for example) are generally okay, whereas a bot that actually played the game for you (built your cities, declared your wars, whatever) would not be." No one's tool plays the game for them. It's within the rules. I've also talked about your point about the smaller nations playing baseball here. 38 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said: To be clear, players don't enjoy baseball, they enjoy getting a free 22 million per day. GOONS have admitted to (at least) creating a manipulation of the game page to turn PnW into essentially cookie clicker. The question is, do you want this game to be Politics and War, or do you want it to be a competitive clicker hero game? The rewards from a simple clicking game are far too high. It is in need of at least a substantial nerf or overhaul. It's already undergone a substantial nerf/overhaul and it was done to prevent a couple of players who likely were using bots to play 10,000 games a day from being able to do so. That happened when Alex put a 1000 game limit of how many games could be played a day before income gets nerfed to 10%. I've just shown here how much time it would actually take to get to the full 1000 games (likely around 4 hours) and Alex showed here how few players do actually get there, using an example of games played on January 21. The rewards aren't too high. It's 4 hours of work to make it to the money earned from selling a credit. Edited January 24, 2020 by Princess Adrienne 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HARPER.txt Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 TL:DR people click, its what we do here, we click, we "waste" our time (not yours) clicking, how people spend their time is nothing for you to have a cry about. Every damn video game you play is clicking and wasting time, you sitting on you facebook/phone/social media etc is clicking- your walls of text are clicking on the keyboard and by god do alot of you seem to enjoy making those no? get back in your bag you biased bags of meat, even I'll play 2-3 games of OBL a day, not because I'm trying to "cookie click" its because I'm bored as shite staring at the screen- boredom is a factor in life js. jfc you people amaze me.. you really don't now I'm going to go back to clicking since I work at a PC anyway as most stuff & technology in the modern world involves clicking , enjoy your tire fire, or find something relevant In your lives to !@#$ so much about. / Quote -SAXON- -Warband Leader of the Nordic Sea Raiders- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micchan Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I think baseball should work under blockade A naval blockade doesn't stop you from hosting a baseball game And if you want to create enough money for a double buy at the update you need to start playing hours before with the risk of having the money stolen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Alex Posted January 24, 2020 Administrators Share Posted January 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Frawley said: Alex removed Keno because the code underlying it was broken, and certain players used it to spawn money into the game. Had keno actually been secure, it would have had no reason for deletion. Eh, I wouldn't agree with that. There may have been speculation that someone identified the random number generator and was able to use that to predict future numbers generated, but I believe we agreed that the function used was cryptographically secure as far as we knew and there wasn't any evidence that this was true. Keno was removed because it doesn't really have any use in a nation simulation game, and the impacts of huge payouts are arguably damaging to the game. Quote Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest ItForums Rules | Game Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Popular Post Alex Posted January 24, 2020 Administrators Popular Post Share Posted January 24, 2020 To contribute to this discussion in a transparent way, here is the current data on money generated from baseball. Of interest is the net amounts - total earned less total invested. I've collected the data by nation and by alliance. Notably, here's a graph showing the income generated from baseball per alliance. Attached is an excel sheet with this graph as well as the raw data. Here are a few summary statistics: baseball_data.csv 4 1 2 Quote Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest ItForums Rules | Game Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward I Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Why does it matter how much baseball money was generated per alliance? Baseball games are played by nations, not alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Popular Post Alex Posted January 24, 2020 Administrators Popular Post Share Posted January 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, Edward I said: Why does it matter how much baseball money was generated per alliance? Baseball games are played by nations, not alliances. Well, in my opinion, this seems to be more of a political issue than anything. Some alliances rely on baseball to be competitive, and some don't, and I think this data shows how impactful baseball can be on gameplay. 3 alliances (NPO, GPWC, GOONS) have generated ~$24 billion in-game currency. 9 Quote Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest ItForums Rules | Game Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard J Crabs Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, Alex said: Well, in my opinion, this seems to be more of a political issue than anything. Some alliances rely on baseball to be competitive, and some don't, and I think this data shows how impactful baseball can be on gameplay. 3 alliances (NPO, GPWC, GOONS) have generated ~$24 trillion in-game currency. For reference, there is currently only ~$650 billion in-game. To be clear, those 3 alliances have generated an amount of money that is 37x the total amount of money currently in the game. you mean 24 billion. That graph shows billions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dryad Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alex said: 3 alliances (NPO, GPWC, GOONS) have generated ~$24 trillion in-game currency. For reference, there is currently only ~$650 billion in-game. To be clear, those 3 alliances have generated an amount of money that is 37x the total amount of money currently in the game. ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? was this a mistake? i cant believe this is actually the case and the graph doesnt show it this way. according to the graph blighty and who me both have made more individually than any of those 3 alliances (which btw is also kinda ridiculous) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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