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Change/Remove Baseball


Guest Elijah Mikaelson
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The basic principle of this game is that, aside from a basic activity requirement, clicking buttons does not provide any additional mechanical benefit. Money, resources, and military action points are generated in this game at set intervals. The only way to get ahead of other players is by better planning (optimizing builds), or exploiting the community (trade speculation/arbitrage or raiding/warfare). Baseball flies in the face of every other mechanic in the game that you can just click buttons and magic money into the game.

@Alex grow a spine and fix your game.

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Praise Dio. Every !@#$ing day.

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Two major complaints here:

7 hours ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

baseball right now is over powered if a ten city nation is able to make 22m a day just spamming baseball for a few hours.

A few hours isn't instant. It takes a lot of time and people do still have to work for it if they want it.

7 hours ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

(Wont bring up the fact most are boting but i also understand you have no way of proving it so they are able to get away with it, as long as they setup some time delays)

...

This link is how GOONs are using a 3rd party program to make baseball pretty much tap tap tap tap on a phone without looking as it change the size of the buttons of the website. it also tells everyone to embargo Noctis, I feel this would be a form of harassment

This wiki page has a lot of swearing so please no not click it if you get offend quickly, yes I understand the link in itself is swearing.

http://wiki.goons.cx/doku.php?id=frickingbaseball

If you actually saw that tool while the page was up, you'd have seen that it wasn't botting. All it does is make the button bigger and lets you refresh the page the page by clicking the button. You still have to click the button, which makes it within game rules, this tool only makes it easier to do that with. Unless someone is way over 1500 games/day (which is about the max I've seen people really be able to do) or reaching those levels every day, there's really no reason to suspect botting. Most people don't get anywhere near either of those most days because it is so time intensive to do so and there's little incentive to spend time on it much beyond that because of the changes Alex made.

Edited by Princess Adrienne
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4 hours ago, Yuno said:

Think of "baseball" like a "job"

if you're too lazy to go to work, you shouldn't make money

nor should you complain about "those people make money for working. Remove their jobs! Reduce minimum wage"   

Meanwhile, Whales (30+ City Nations who make between 20-100+ million per day (without fail)  in "income revenue" for doing nothing) are like Stockholders who live off their free dividends' income, which are more money than baseball at zero the work. (Baseball at least takes hours to make the money whales get for doing nothing.)  

-

Sorry for the analogies

(I simply really wanted to make the real life comparisons and this thread gave me an apt opportunity to.)

The only problem with that is that I don't have time to 'go to work' as you put it, because I have to go to work. In peacetime the game is rather marketed as a low-activity kind of game, it's about the longterm, rather than about spending hours on hours in one day on it if you want to reach the top.

4 hours ago, Yuno said:

Think of "baseball" like a "job"

if you're too lazy to go to work, you shouldn't make money

nor should you complain about "those people make money for working. Remove their jobs! Reduce minimum wage"   

Meanwhile, Whales (30+ City Nations who make between 20-100+ million per day (without fail)  in "income revenue" for doing nothing) are like Stockholders who live off their free dividends' income, which are more money than baseball at zero the work. (Baseball at least takes hours to make the money whales get for doing nothing.)  

-

Sorry for the analogies

(I simply really wanted to make the real life comparisons and this thread gave me an apt opportunity to.)

The only problem with that is that I don't have time to 'go to work' as you put it, because I have to go to work. In peacetime the game is rather marketed as a low-activity kind of game, it's about the longterm, rather than about spending hours on hours in one day on it if you want to reach the top.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

In the reports forum there is Baseball bot report and Alex says in there that there is player support from the surveys to keep it as it is.

Baseball is completely balanced and it isnt restricted to tiers, certain playerbase. It is something that many players enjoy about the game and in some instances the only thing that keeps them playing. Everyone can play and you dont need to put much effort into earning the revenue. When you list an alliance in a suggestion and those opposed to that alliance then come in and support said suggestion, it is obvious that you want to change baseball for political reasons/vendetta against that alliance. 

So if Alex changed it so it does not add money in to the game, and was a side game as it was meant to be, nothing is still you from still spamming baseball?

 

The reason you are mad is simply due to the fact you know full well how much you are abusing the fact Alex has let it be so game breaking, 1500 nations under those four alliance spamming 1k games each will make 37 billion a day, you do not see that as game breaking? 

1 hour ago, Princess Adrienne said:

Two major complaints here:

A few hours isn't instant. It takes a lot of time and people do still have to work for it if they want it.

If you actually saw that tool while the page was up, you'd have seen that it wasn't botting. All it does is make the button bigger and lets you refresh the page the page by clicking the button. You still have to click the button, which makes it within game rules, this tool only makes it easier to do that with. Unless someone is way over 1500 games/day (which is about the max I've seen people really be able to do) or reaching those levels every day, there's really no reason to suspect botting. Most people don't get anywhere near either of those most days because it is so time intensive to do so and there's little incentive to spend time on it much beyond that because of the changes Alex made.

A few hours is not much and most watch tv and setup key-binds where they just sit there watching something pressing one button hell you can even set it up so it works in the back ground, the enlargement of the button makes it a hell of a lot easier to bot baseball, as to the 1500 games the reason no one go to that is due to the face after 1k games you earn like 10% of the total money due to the nerfs Alex already put in place, quite a few people get close to that mark.

Also enough people have posted information for botting on goons, this was not about if they cheat or not it was about the fact that baseball is broken and has a massive impact on the game.

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13 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

So if Alex changed it so it does not add money in to the game, and was a side game as it was meant to be, nothing is still you from still spamming baseball?

 

The reason you are mad is simply due to the fact you know full well how much you are abusing the fact Alex has let it be so game breaking, 1500 nations under those four alliance spamming 1k games each will make 37 billion a day, you do not see that as game breaking? 

A few hours is not much and most watch tv and setup key-binds where they just sit there watching something pressing one button hell you can even set it up so it works in the back ground, the enlargement of the button makes it a hell of a lot easier to bot baseball, as to the 1500 games the reason no one go to that is due to the face after 1k games you earn like 10% of the total money due to the nerfs Alex already put in place, quite a few people get close to that mark.

Also enough people have posted information for botting on goons, this was not about if they cheat or not it was about the fact that baseball is broken and has a massive impact on the game.

It isnt game breaking if the other 1500 Nations also do it. Hence its balanced and equal. No one is disadvantaged by Baseball unless you choose not to play it.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
5 hours ago, Yuno said:

Think of "baseball" like a "job"

if you're too lazy to go to work, you shouldn't make money

nor should you complain about "those people make money for working. Remove their jobs! Reduce minimum wage"   

Meanwhile, Whales (30+ City Nations who make between 20-100+ million per day (without fail)  in "income revenue" for doing nothing) are like Stockholders who live off their free dividends' income, which are more money than baseball at zero the work. (Baseball at least takes hours to make the money whales get for doing nothing.)  

-

Sorry for the analogies

(I simply really wanted to make the real life comparisons and this thread gave me an apt opportunity to.)

It had taken those 30 city plus whales years to get there, and cost them billions to get there. maxing out a baseball team costs about 50m meaning they can get a full refund of the money they spent within 3 days, how long do you think it takes for whales to make back the cost of one city? I tell you this its a hell of a lot longer than 3 days.

If you see baseball as work, then trust me those 30 city plus nations put there work in the hard way, to get what they have.

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It isnt game breaking if the other 1500 Nations also do it. Hence its balanced and equal. No one is disadvantaged by Baseball unless you choose not to play it.

So you feel spawning in 37 billion from nothing is not game breaking, I do not care what side do it or if everyone does it, Alex statement was they are side games and not to have a huge impact on the game, a single nation being able to spawn in 22m a day from spamming a button when watching a film is game breaking lol, i bet your nation with the 2k and the bad builds you normally do, do not even make 22m a day and your 20 cities im guessing.

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27 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

A few hours is not much and most watch tv and setup key-binds where they just sit there watching something pressing one button hell you can even set it up so it works in the back ground, the enlargement of the button makes it a hell of a lot easier to bot baseball, as to the 1500 games the reason no one go to that is due to the face after 1k games you earn like 10% of the total money due to the nerfs Alex already put in place, quite a few people get close to that mark.

That's a tool, not a bot. They are still doing the work, which makes it within the rules. I'm aware of the reasons why that's the max people tend to go to but I'm pretty sure Alex showed just yesterday that not a lot of people do make it to that mark. My 1500 estimate includes both homes and aways though, just as an FYI.

27 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

Also enough people have posted information for botting on goons, this was not about if they cheat or not it was about the fact that baseball is broken and has a massive impact on the game.

Then make it solely about that instead of trying to also accuse of them of cheating when they don't appear to be based on the evidence you've given.

Edited by Princess Adrienne
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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
3 minutes ago, Princess Adrienne said:

That's a tool, not a bot. They are still doing the work, which makes it within the rules. I'm aware of the reasons why that's the max people tend to go to but I'm pretty sure Alex showed just yesterday that not a lot of people do make it to that mark.

Then make it solely about that instead of trying to also accuse of them of cheating when they don't appear to be based on the evidence you've given.

Was meant to be solely about the fact baseball is broke in terms of it being a side game and having no real impact on the game, I removed the line about botting you are right it has nothing to do with why baseball is broken.

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Baseball rewards activity and even has generated some degree of cooperation between warring alliances.  I really don't see it as game breaking at all.  What it's brought in is only a small fraction of total global economic output.

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Since Alex removed keno and the other side games for having too much of an effect by generating money, stopping baseball from generating money is the next logical step. The suggestion of keeping the game, but having the money created through baseball only be used for baseball upgrades and baseball team customization is a good compromise. Player that enjoy baseball can continue to play, while keeping the balance of the game at large.

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44 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

It had taken those 30 city plus whales years to get there, and cost them billions to get there. maxing out a baseball team costs about 50m meaning they can get a full refund of the money they spent within 3 days, how long do you think it takes for whales to make back the cost of one city? I tell you this its a hell of a lot longer than 3 days.

If you see baseball as work, then trust me those 30 city plus nations put there work in the hard way, to get what they have.

So you feel spawning in 37 billion from nothing is not game breaking, I do not care what side do it or if everyone does it, Alex statement was they are side games and not to have a huge impact on the game, a single nation being able to spawn in 22m a day from spamming a button when watching a film is game breaking lol, i bet your nation with the 2k and the bad builds you normally do, do not even make 22m a day and your 20 cities im guessing.

Nope not game breaking at all as I've already explained. The evidence suggest thus far that getting the majority of 1500 Nations to do anything is a miracle in itself let alone have them all play a 1000 games of baseball. Your figures are all hypothetical, and those hypothetical numbers can be matched by the other 1500 Nations and both sets of Nations make the same. It's completely balanced. 

You keep saying it's not a suggestion based on political bias, and then constantly throw in your bias. Goons, NPO 20 cities, Opus dei member counts. There is plenty of mechanical imbalances across the game, baseball isnt one. Why dont you work on suggestions to fix unbalanced mechanics, which would be better spent effort than trying to nerf your political enemies.

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44 minutes ago, Menace said:

Since Alex removed keno and the other side games for having too much of an effect by generating money, stopping baseball from generating money is the next logical step. The suggestion of keeping the game, but having the money created through baseball only be used for baseball upgrades and baseball team customization is a good compromise. Player that enjoy baseball can continue to play, while keeping the balance of the game at large.

It's also different than keno and the other side games because it's not random. Every nation has the ability to do this equally.

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What now? Again? So people get happy when it gets nerfed the first time. And then when they see people enjoying time on the game again, and they can't do it themselves, they want to remove it?

Once and again, people are completely ignorant that there are tips involved in the amt earned. Players also need to be reinvested when they retire. And 1k games daily does not guarantee you can earned 25million per day just exactly it is. The winning game earn is just an estimated random, depending on your opponents rating.

Completely ignoring the time and cash people had to sacrifice to play baseball, and all you see is the surface is just plain salt, nothing else. 

13 minutes ago, Princess Adrienne said:

It's also different than keno and the other side games because it's not random. Every nation has the ability to do this equally.

Well I agree with you. And when people can't do it or find it a hassle, they just don't want others to earn something they can't bother to do. ?

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My only problem is the click to win, I would like to see a baseball that requires skills

Maybe a daily baseball tournament where the top 10 players get money, the others zero because they had low skills

I'm totally ok to give 25M to the winner who has skills and has put effort in the game

Also bring back keno with some limitations like 1M max bet instead of 50M

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1 hour ago, Princess Adrienne said:

It's also different than keno and the other side games because it's not random. Every nation has the ability to do this equally.

Unfortunately for you, the randomness is actually what makes their argument true.

The randomness meant that Keno and Dice were money sinks, even if a few individuals got lucky, it could not be reliably expected to generate more than it earns.

While big headlines like EMs 25bn win make you think Keno was gamebreaking, you forget that 30bn was removed from the game by various people playing Keno in the time it took that happen.

 

Baseball however is just straight up creating money from nothing. The only people who take serious issue with it are those who wanted it (and baseball) all removed, or those who like baseball and hate that these other unnecessary games had more actual benefit to the game than their money generating button.

I don't care if only 3 people make their 22-25m/day from it. It shouldn't be possible to begin with. I have to have 2.5k infra with ITC and my 25 cities to even reach that level of income. There is no sane reason a 2 minute old City 1 should be able to do it with 0 infra by clicking a button.

That nobody actually does that is irrelevant. It shouldn't even be a possibility.

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9 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Unfortunately for you, the randomness is actually what makes their argument true.

The randomness meant that Keno and Dice were money sinks, even if a few individuals got lucky, it could not be reliably expected to generate more than it earns.

While big headlines like EMs 25bn win make you think Keno was gamebreaking, you forget that 30bn was removed from the game by various people playing Keno in the time it took that happen.

 

Baseball however is just straight up creating money from nothing. The only people who take serious issue with it are those who wanted it (and baseball) all removed, or those who like baseball and hate that these other unnecessary games had more actual benefit to the game than their money generating button.

I don't care if only 3 people make their 22-25m/day from it. It shouldn't be possible to begin with. I have to have 2.5k infra with ITC and my 25 cities to even reach that level of income. There is no sane reason a 2 minute old City 1 should be able to do it with 0 infra by clicking a button.

That nobody actually does that is irrelevant. It shouldn't even be a possibility.

I'd be good with the rewards being anything they want as long as it doesn't have any influence on the only thing most of us are here for, P&W.

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Guest PhantomThiefB
8 hours ago, Plo Koon said:

It's blatantly obvious many are boting it and no surprises to find those who defend it are from the most suspect alliances. I cancelled my subscription because of this crap. .

Oh we're using our subscriptions against Alex now? Interesting choice.?

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Nope not game breaking at all as I've already explained. The evidence suggest thus far that getting the majority of 1500 Nations to do anything is a miracle in itself let alone have them all play a 1000 games of baseball. Your figures are all hypothetical, and those hypothetical numbers can be matched by the other 1500 Nations and both sets of Nations make the same. It's completely balanced. 

You keep saying it's not a suggestion based on political bias, and then constantly throw in your bias. Goons, NPO 20 cities, Opus dei member counts. There is plenty of mechanical imbalances across the game, baseball isnt one. Why dont you work on suggestions to fix unbalanced mechanics, which would be better spent effort than trying to nerf your political enemies.

You are saying this is based on political bias, then tell me whats wrong with removing the money baseball makes?

Lets keep baseball but it has its own money, it has zero effect on the game, why is this not ok?

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1 hour ago, Akuryo said:

I don't care if only 3 people make their 22-25m/day from it. It shouldn't be possible to begin with. I have to have 2.5k infra with ITC and my 25 cities to even reach that level of income. There is no sane reason a 2 minute old City 1 should be able to do it with 0 infra by clicking a button.

That nobody actually does that is irrelevant. It shouldn't even be a possibility.

That City 1 nation with 0 infra would have to miraculously produce somewhere around 45m to max out their stadium and their team in order to make 22m a day from it. So, unless their alliance is funding that, that's not happening, and I find it a little hard to believe most alliances would fund a nation a baseball team when getting them to 5 cities costs less than half that and benefits the alliance as a whole considerably more. So... a city 1 nation with 0 infra couldn't do it far more likely than not. What is your argument here?

As for keno, I personally didn't care to have it removed. The money sink was good, having the ability to win a little cash is fine. But billions? That is what shouldn't even be a possibility. The fact that anyone could make billions of it is beyond ridiculous. With baseball though, no one is making billions and the money you do make is not by chance, you have to work for it. Here's an example breakdown for you with my own nation:

Money Invested: $82,497,501.00 | Money Earned: $214,417,005.04

So, in the almost three years I've been playing this game, I've made a grand total of $214,417,005.04 from playing baseball. Most of that is likely from home games because that is predominantly what I do, so I don't often make money in tips playing aways. Because of tipping culture, I generally give about 30% of the original money earned (the 214m) to other players. 30% of that is $64,325,101.51. I've also sunk $82,497,501.00 into the costs of my stadium and players. 

$214,417,005.04 - $82,497,501.00 - $64,325,101.51 = $67,594,402.53

$67.6 million over 3 years. And hours of time sunk into this game to get it. That's your concern?

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
46 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

Oh we're using our subscriptions against Alex now? Interesting choice.?

He has every right to cancel his sub if he does not agree with things Alex has or has not done, that is his right?

1 minute ago, Princess Adrienne said:

That City 1 nation with 0 infra would have to miraculously produce somewhere around 45m to max out their stadium and their team in order to make 22m a day from it. So, unless their alliance is funding that, that's not happening, and I find it a little hard to believe most alliances would fund a nation a baseball team when getting them to 5 cities costs less than half that and benefits the alliance as a whole considerably more. So... a city 1 nation with 0 infra couldn't do it far more likely than not. What is your argument here?

As for keno, I personally didn't care to have it removed. The money sink was good, having the ability to win a little cash is fine. But billions? That is what shouldn't even be a possibility. The fact that anyone could make billions of it is beyond ridiculous. With baseball though, no one is making billions and the money you do make is not by chance, you have to work for it. Here's an example breakdown for you with my own nation:

Money Invested: $82,497,501.00 | Money Earned: $214,417,005.04

So, in the almost three years I've been playing this game, I've made a grand total of $214,417,005.04 from playing baseball. Most of that is likely from home games because that is predominantly what I do, so I don't often make money in tips playing aways. Because of tipping culture, I generally give about 30% of the original money earned (the 214m) to other players. 30% of that is $64,325,101.51. I've also sunk $82,497,501.00 into the costs of my stadium and players. 

$214,417,005.04 - $82,497,501.00 - $64,325,101.51 = $67,594,402.53

$67.6 million over 3 years. And hours of time sunk into this game to get it. That's your concern?

There are alliances who do fund a full baseball team the second they join and tell them to spam baseball. so this does happen.

No one is making billions, you should check again some people have made billions and for me Money Invested: $114,095,500.00 | Money Earned: $295,360,624.82 is mine,  and I only played mostly when I was below 20 cities, only due to yours being low over three years some people are getting more than that in profit a week. 

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Guest PhantomThiefB
6 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

He has every right to cancel his sub if he does not agree with things Alex has or has not done, that is his right?

Aye, your correct. But including it into this thread just sounds like he's trying to say he'll pay Alex to remove it. That's blackmail against the admin. Actually @Alex you may want to consider moderation action in this instance.

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Keno could be brute forced and was cheated around. Baseball its quite hard since finding a botter is easy. 

There's a community that has been built around it, and folks are willing to play/click and do the work involved. Still don't see any argument to nerf it, other than EM is too lazy to baseball and therefore its broken. 

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Baseball directly rewards committing activity and time to the game, and as Alex has stated before the majority of the community as he determined does not want it to be further nerfed or removed. It was pretty busted when Galerion and JasperFrost were making 100m+ a day from it sure, but the 1k a day game limit puts it in line with moderate trading and far below any competent level of raiding in terms of how much money you can make.

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1 hour ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

There are alliances who do fund a full baseball team the second they join and tell them to spam baseball. so this does happen.

No one is making billions, you should check again some people have made billions and for me Money Invested: $114,095,500.00 | Money Earned: $295,360,624.82 is mine,  and I only played mostly when I was below 20 cities, only due to yours being low over three years some people are getting more than that in profit a week. 

And those nations never move off city 1/0 infra or contribute in any other way to this game?

I know mine is low. Over my history, I've tended to play more sporadically but I have picked up playing more in the last three months. I play a lot currently so I have a good idea of how much you earn from games if you're maxed out, which both my stadium and team are, as are the stadiums and teams of most people I play. So, I'm going to actually math this out now because you've piqued my interest.

My last 125 games used a tool to make playing baseball easier, were played with other people actively playing at the same time, and averaged about $22,071.05 per game in earnings. If I played 1000 home games (the max before income from home games gets nerfed), I'd make around $22,071,050 in a single day, $15,449,735 after tips. If someone is online and playing with me actively, I can play about 4 games on average a minute or so. If I played that nonstop until I got to 1000 games, I'd need 242 minutes or ~4 hours.

So, the rough maximum I could earn from home games in a week, after tips and ignoring player maintenance, is $108,148,145. So, yeah, maybe some people are making more profit than my $67.6m historical net total in a single week. But they'd need to spend ~28 hours of their week clicking a button to do that. If you're a normal human who sleeps 8 hours a day (and let's be honest, nearly none of us are), that's 25% of your week gone and that's using a tool to make your life a little easier. So, if you're doing that, you've earned it in my opinion. And that's why I said earlier no real human is seriously doing that every single day and if you're seeing that, I would agree that you're probably looking at a bot.

Math here for you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sTm6HsX0QEjzHK9hJFZok-pjkS8eR6OKaKlpay6VV68/edit?usp=sharing

Edited by Princess Adrienne
Typo >.>
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Guest PhantomThiefB

@Princess Adrienne Wait you only sleep 8 hours a week? I'm seriously concerned for you, but also just jokingly poking fun at your typo. ?

Also generally not many would be doing 1k per day everyday, but those players that are could be students with a lot more time on their hands than us adults. It depends on the person really, some people like to no life some games, eh.

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