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Exar Kun -George
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Guest Dalmasca

Im already lazy when it comes to sending out food and uranium every couple of days to 55 nations, getting a Captcha every 3 or so nations will be the death of me, I swear.

34 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

Then do not take the job on lol.

I would downvote your argument if the button was still there.

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On 1/16/2020 at 12:49 PM, George said:

@Alex said he’s willing to have a in good faith discussion regarding the bots in game 

 

so it’s my beliefs while I actually do automate some things in game, we should cut down on what’s actually allowed

 

1. Bank moving bots, I think anything regarding banking should be a big nono and require capcha. Simply because to move the bank in the normal ways, it requires two people. The banker and the receiver (specifically for bank to bank). The nation has to make a new alliance and then the banker transfer. The idea the person holding the cash could not be present at all during the transfer is my big concern. This gives bigger alliances the clear advantage as smaller aas can’t do this. If the systems required the PnW account holder to log in and do it, it would be different however there is no way to enforce it 

 

2. Mass messaging, honestly I think you should make a in game mechanic and charge a credit per month or something, same principle smaller alliances have difficulty getting ahold of these scripts. another idea is to captcha the messages and require people to use the good ole ads and alliance page to recruit people 

 

3. In regards to banning these and your concerns, the truth is no ones hurt. The api provides everything most public tools use. The only people hurt are the ones who web scrape and are able to essentially spy on everyone, track transactions and other shit. This isn’t accessible to everyone and is really a clear advantage. So essentially the one ones hurt are getting a advantage taken away

This is a sad, pathetic attempt to get revenge on BK for outing you as the hacker who stole the credintials of Leo and STOLE from the bk bank whilst kicking bk members.  Your moral character is dubious, and I sincerely hope that alex bans you for your abhorent behavour.

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7 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I'd hazard a guess and say "most of us" doesn't actually refer to the majority of us. If you were truly against bots you wouldn't be in Rose, since your own alliance uses them. What stick do you plan on beating us with once bots are outlawed and we are still better than you?

You'll need to ask our government as I'm not aware of bots being used and from what I can see everything is done manually otherwise I'd like to see how your side fairs without all the automation.

 

3 hours ago, Princess Adrienne said:

I'm sorry, I beg to differ. Banking is tedious af for mass member alliances, regardless of the tax rate.

Botting in general is being abused so the simple solution is to ban them all like most games do.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Plo Koon said:

You'll need to ask our government as I'm not aware of bots being used and from what I can see everything is done manually otherwise I'd like to see how your side fairs without all the automation.

 

Firstly I enjoy your claims that NPO somehow does not do everything manually. We in fact have always done things manually for the most bit, including for years sending out resources to 130-150 nations manually. 

What the bots do is a quality of life addition in member management for large alliances. A banking bot does nothing else but ensure greater management of large AA's, nothing else. It's not an added advantage. Any AA willing to do the work is free too. It's not some secret that only a select few have built. Banking bots have been allowed since 2015/16 or longer and fully available to anyone who wants to spend the time building it. If you don't want to, you're free not to, but I daresay I have no idea why you'd want to undo work that was done legally by quite a few people, just because you chose not to to build programs to make your experience better in the game. 

Also Rose quite clearly did automate a tonne of stuff. At least Zevfer was famous for it. So this is a little case of pot calling kettle black. 

1 hour ago, Plo Koon said:

Botting in general is being abused so the simple solution is to ban them all like most games do.

 

The only abuse I've seen since the hades incident is this one where George breached BKNet for his own personal reasons. This has nothing to do with every other bot in function within the game, and BKNet has never been misused within the confines of the game. Prove me wrong here. 

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10 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

Firstly I enjoy your claims that NPO somehow does not do everything manually. We in fact have always done things manually for the most bit, including for years sending out resources to 130-150 nations manually. 

What the bots do is a quality of life addition in member management for large alliances. A banking bot does nothing else but ensure greater management of large AA's, nothing else. It's not an added advantage. Any AA willing to do the work is free too. It's not some secret that only a select few have built. Banking bots have been allowed since 2015/16 or longer and fully available to anyone who wants to spend the time building it. If you don't want to, you're free not to, but I daresay I have no idea why you'd want to undo work that was done legally by quite a few people, just because you chose not to to build programs to make your experience better in the game. 

Also Rose quite clearly did automate a tonne of stuff. At least Zevfer was famous for it. So this is a little case of pot calling kettle black. 

The only abuse I've seen since the hades incident is this one where George breached BKNet for his own personal reasons. This has nothing to do with every other bot in function within the game, and BKNet has never been misused within the confines of the game. Prove me wrong here. 

People have already been banned botting baseball so this proves it is being abused.

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9 minutes ago, Plo Koon said:

People have already been banned botting baseball so this proves it is being abused.

That was against the rules. BKNet was not. It should not be retroactively after the sunk costs and its easy platform for anyone and everyone to be able to do it. 

Edited by Shadowthrone
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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
4 hours ago, Dalmasca said:

Im already lazy when it comes to sending out food and uranium every couple of days to 55 nations, getting a Captcha every 3 or so nations will be the death of me, I swear.

I would downvote your argument if the button was still there.

lucky for me your point of view do not matter. 

Try sending enough for them, to have enough food and uranium for the month instead of every few days or you simply not trust your members enough?

5 hours ago, Princess Adrienne said:

Great argument there. Bravo.

Well its a fact, if the job is to hard or to long for you to do without the use of a bot then do not do it? not sure why that is hard to understand.

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2 hours ago, Douglas MacArthur said:

This is a sad, pathetic attempt to get revenge on BK for outing you as the hacker who stole the credintials of Leo and STOLE from the bk bank whilst kicking bk members.  Your moral character is dubious, and I sincerely hope that alex bans you for your abhorent behavour.

#1 This has nothing to do with BK lolz, every major alliances has programs that does stuff like this 

#2 Alex cleared me of breaking any rules

#3 Either contrib to the discussion or gtfo 

0b3897cd640f95254329f7a2d45d8c77b1c120e.

 

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10 minutes ago, George said:

#2 Alex cleared me of breaking any rules

 

No. He cleared you of breaking into Leo's nations in-game. The BKNet abuse though is another matter though, which folks with admin control with fairly certain confidence, did state you were the one behind it. So lets face it, this conversation is nothing more than another attempt of yours to mess with BK. Enjoy it while it lasts ;) 

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5 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

No. He cleared you of breaking into Leo's nations in-game. The BKNet abuse though is another matter though, which folks with admin control with fairly certain confidence, did state you were the one behind it. So lets face it, this conversation is nothing more than another attempt of yours to mess with BK. Enjoy it while it lasts ;) 

Cute, but no 

0b3897cd640f95254329f7a2d45d8c77b1c120e.

 

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1 minute ago, George said:

Cute, but no 

There is no "real-talk" regarding bots, outside of your politicking over it. Go build your own banking software if you're that salty over being caught embezzling stuff and kicked out for screwing over a community that trusted you. I do enjoy your terribly partisan attempts at it. I enjoy your breaching of third party programmes though, quite cute.

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On 1/16/2020 at 7:25 AM, Thalmor said:

Whatever allowed for the current fiasco with Leo's account to occur should be prohibited. Something of that magnitude shouldn't have happened, and it should definitely never happen again.

It happened because George had admin access as head of econ in BK and when he was caught embezzling decided to be a jerk about it.

 

Pretty much all other users of BKNet wasn't aware of all the things you could do, as nobody had malicious intent, so never felt the need to test it. The only reason this turned out as bad as it did, was that it was Leo's account that was synced with the bank system. Had it been mine, nobody would've been able to do anything, but send resources, as I have no actual power in the alliance.

 

In addition; Most of the things that we, as a community playing this game, have made bots for, you could argue should already be in the game.

 

In short, BKN is a banking system. You can request a deposit code. When you deposit using that code, the things you deposit are entered into a bank account, while the resources are being put into the alliance bank. Just like a real bank, where the money you have in the bank aren't your physical money anymore, but still your property.

 

There are so many reasons that a system like that would be preferable to have in the game as a base, as it just makes for much better alliance coorperation and convenience. This shouldn't be a game where the alliances with most people online at all times have the advantages. A simple but functional banking system helps everyone.

 

The same goes for everything else. It's fine that the person gets attacked get a notification via mail, but ultimately, it's the alliance who kind of needs to know so they can act on it. Notification bots work with Discord or forums primarily, but a simple system that makes an in game notification (a red flag next to alliance tab for example) if you're in range could easily do much of the same.

 

I'm no programmer. I don't know what's possible and impossible or difficult or easy. I'm just saying that there's a fine line between having bots/scripts that improve quality of life and gaming experience and bots/scripts/hacks that give you an actual advantage, like using an auto-clicker for Baseball.

 

Anything that's not directly affecting the game, say autobuying deals on market, clicking baseball, automatic warfare, scouting and such. I'm fine with.

 

I'm also hoping that we'll see more introduced in the future to allow people to play more on the game site, instead of having radio shows, companies, news papers, etc. on third party software and pages. Would be cool if I could just get all my P&W things done in one place. More or less.

Edited by King Olafr of the Faroes
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"Don't argue with members of The Golden Horde. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." - Probably someone on OWF.

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13 hours ago, Plo Koon said:

Most of us don't want to see any bots in the game so your attempt at justifying their use because you released them to the public is unacceptable and the truth is your alliance is fully reliant on bots. Spending your own money hosting for a clear advantage over those who do not or do not want to is also no justification for them, this should give @Alex more reasons to ban them completely.

I used to send everything manually and most of of stuff is manual like Keshav said. Most people are pretty aware that I'm fairly hands on. It's quality of life thing that the bank automation should be accessible to all just like bulk import. 

Rose has an infra repurchaser and other bots too, so like the others said look in your own house first.

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26 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Rose has an infra repurchaser and other bots too, so like the others said look in your own house first.

Are you saying I'm paying credits for something that Rose does free of charge?

 

Nice.

"Don't argue with members of The Golden Horde. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." - Probably someone on OWF.

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3 minutes ago, King Olafr of the Faroes said:

Are you saying I'm paying credits for something that Rose does free of charge?

 

Nice.

Not sure how well it works now but it's also more involved to configure it and such, so convenience the VIP thing is still better, but sort of.

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It seems that the use of bots/scripts has evolved into the game and have tacit approval from Alex.  I think the argument can be made quite reasonably for both ends of the spectrum:

1. Although the game rules afaik don’t explicitly prohibit bot use in functions more or less external to specific game play actions, it can be reasonably argued that their use is not in the spirit of the game as it distorts the playing field in favour of the bot user.  Not everyone has the time, knowledge or other necessities to develop bots for their own or others use.  Most games are intended to be played in a setting allowing for the skill of the players in the game itself, operating within the rules, to determine a winner.  Perhaps akin to performance enhancing drugs, you don’t take them while you’re on the field of play, but they give you an advantage nonetheless.

alternatively,

2. Through not apparently making definitive moves against bot use (aside from clear cases of cheating/manipulating specific gameplay actions), it does not seem to offend Alex.  This might be because it’s seen as a positive feature of the game that adds value to the experience and invests players and alliances more in whatever their desired outcomes are.  Kinda like BYO drinks at a restaurant.  you don’t need alcohol to have fun, but it certainly helps!  Though booze is implicated in contributing to many a great debacle.

One thing however; it’s misguided  to expect Alex or anybody else who experiences no benefit from your bot(s) to give a care for your lost optional investment should bots be banned. I personally can’t see a problem with a script that goes ‘ping’, nor one that adds up a few numbers.  But I do like to think that aa’s would stop short of building some sort of auto-counter bot.

Celer Et Audax

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5 hours ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

Well its a fact, if the job is to hard or to long for you to do without the use of a bot then do not do it? not sure why that is hard to understand.

Because that doesn't change that the job needs to be done? You've got to know that's a pretty garbage argument lol. Now, we still do ours entirely manually but, especially during wartime, that is a tedious task. During peace, not so much. But your argument of "oh, well, don't find ways to make it easier on yourself, just don't do it" is ridiculous. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of full automation because I'm not - I still think you need to have manual input on both sides (as in a request and approval of a request) if you're going to have anything like a banking bot, for example - but I totally understand the want to devise a tool to make your game life easier. That's why most bots/tools are made.

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Guest PhantomThiefB
7 hours ago, George said:

#1 This has nothing to do with BK lolz, every major alliances has programs that does stuff like this 

#2 Alex cleared me of breaking any rules

#3 Either contrib to the discussion or gtfo 

You and Brony flimsysides have been walking the line of cheaters and OOC attacks for awhile. RE : logdumps, stealing BK's bank (multiple times) and hiding in VM (not multiple times, I know) Neither of you have any right to speak up in these matters. None of us want to drive you from the game, we're just tired of you two not playing in good faith so how about you guys stop using underhanded BS to try to gain an advantage over other players and come back when you can follow the rules.

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Yeah, I don't think many of us are arguing that bots in and of themselves are wrong or that things shouldn't be made easier for players.

I do think it's important to make the distinction that bots which automate manual or analog input (ie: Leo being able to "send out" aid immediately without even logging into his nation) crosses a pretty distinct line. I think recruitment bots would be the only reasonable exception to this, and that's because the only significant analog input you're automating is hitting the "send" button in the messaging system and they're beyond established at this point.

A simple aid request / approval function for banks would be really nice, actually. And anything that makes the game more mobile friendly is great too.

I saw some mention of automating aid send outs for the 100/100 alliances, which is a fine way to play but I wouldn't say it's a fundamentally necessary component of the game. If that's the way you want to play and you're organized enough and your membership is active enough you could easily coordinate requests in such a way that your econ team would just have to log on once a day or so and accept member requests to achieve the same result via a simple aid request / approval system.  

Adding features like that should be part and parcel to the -actual development- of a healthy game (hey Alex!). 

Edited by Sisyphus
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One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

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5 hours ago, SleepingNinja said:

You and Brony flimsysides have been walking the line of cheaters and OOC attacks for awhile. RE : logdumps, stealing BK's bank (multiple times) and hiding in VM (not multiple times, I know) Neither of you have any right to speak up in these matters. None of us want to drive you from the game, we're just tired of you two not playing in good faith so how about you guys stop using underhanded BS to try to gain an advantage over other players and come back when you can follow the rules.

#1 log dumbs and bank stealing (I I’d not do) in PnW are 100% Ic lmao

#2 how is vm cheating or ooc ?

#3 mate their are logs of Leo saying they are going to force me quit, like they even did a fancy vote on the forums. I get as of Bk logs all the time. 
 

ive followed all the rules, just because it doesn’t align with NPO or BKs version is not my concern 

Edited by George

0b3897cd640f95254329f7a2d45d8c77b1c120e.

 

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11 hours ago, George said:

#1 log dumbs and bank stealing (I I’d not do) in PnW are 100% Ic lmao

#2 how is vm cheating or ooc ?

#3 mate their are logs of Leo saying they are going to force me quit, like they even did a fancy vote on the forums. I get as of Bk logs all the time. 
 

ive followed all the rules, just because it doesn’t align with NPO or BKs version is not my concern 

Even your friend says

'However I will state this again, I do not approve of what gorge did, nor will i defend him on the stealing of cash or kicking of members'

You were an appriciated member of BK that betrayed the trust given. AFTER that bk want to perma zi you. Why betray the trust instead of just leaving?

 

Edited by Duke Arthur
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On 1/17/2020 at 11:43 PM, Tiberius said:

I'd hazard a guess and say "most of us" doesn't actually refer to the majority of us. If you were truly against bots you wouldn't be in Rose, since your own alliance uses them. What stick do you plan on beating us with once bots are outlawed and we are still better than you?

 

On 1/18/2020 at 8:51 AM, Shadowthrone said:

[...]

Also Rose quite clearly did automate a tonne of stuff. At least Zevfer was famous for it. So this is a little case of pot calling kettle black. 

[...]

 

On 1/18/2020 at 11:10 AM, Roquentin said:

I used to send everything manually and most of of stuff is manual like Keshav said. Most people are pretty aware that I'm fairly hands on. It's quality of life thing that the bank automation should be accessible to all just like bulk import. 

Rose has an infra repurchaser and other bots too, so like the others said look in your own house first.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 11:37 AM, King Olafr of the Faroes said:

Are you saying I'm paying credits for something that Rose does free of charge?

 

Nice.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 11:41 AM, Roquentin said:

Not sure how well it works now but it's also more involved to configure it and such, so convenience the VIP thing is still better, but sort of.


Sigh

I assume most of you aren't in Rose, and if you are, you have some terrible terrible reading skills or want to make rose seem so bad / attack our member so much that facts don't matter.

I don't know what you think Zev did, but if you joined the community just once you'd see us joking every few days about how he did literally nothing, he did not automate anything, anyone who makes you believe so is simply lying. Zev was pretty darn inactive, praise @Valkorion Baratheon our lord and savior.

Next up, I am also happy to notice that your rose spies are pretty terrible/nonexistent, or you are lying on purpose again.

I am happy you think you know more than Rose members about what tools we have, I am happy our alliance informs you better than us about a "infra repurchaser" while keeping us in the dark when we could have used it in the past week. I hope we have a whole other slew of scripts that we don't know / don't use; way to go @Dynamic.

I hope you can, for at least the rest of this threat stick to proven facts, or bring reasonable proof to the table instead of making assumptions and attacking our members with information you just made, created out of thin air, DIY'ed just then.

-Belgium

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2 minutes ago, BelgiumFury said:

 

 

 

 


Sigh

I assume most of you aren't in Rose, and if you are, you have some terrible terrible reading skills or want to make rose seem so bad / attack our member so much that facts don't matter.

I don't know what you think Zev did, but if you joined the community just once you'd see us joking every few days about how he did literally nothing, he did not automate anything, anyone who makes you believe so is simply lying. Zev was pretty darn inactive, praise @Valkorion Baratheon our lord and savior.

Next up, I am also happy to notice that your rose spies are pretty terrible/nonexistent, or you are lying on purpose again.

I am happy you think you know more than Rose members about what tools we have, I am happy our alliance informs you better than us about a "infra repurchaser" while keeping us in the dark when we could have used it in the past week. I hope we have a whole other slew of scripts that we don't know / don't use; way to go @Dynamic.

I hope you can, for at least the rest of this threat stick to proven facts, or bring reasonable proof to the table instead of making assumptions and attacking our members with information you just made, created out of thin air, DIY'ed just then.

-Belgium

We're not attacking you. We're just saying you use tools too. Take it easy. I'm pretty sure akuryo has mentioned the infra rebuy thing too. I can go find it for you. Zevfer definitely made it.

Edited by Roquentin
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3 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

We're not attacking you. We're just saying you use tools too. Take it easy. I'm pretty sure akuryo has mentioned the infra rebuy thing too. I can go find it for you. Zevfer definitely made it.

If zev made them (but that would have been before he was a leader), he never implemented them, we do not script infra rebuilds, and that I can guarantee.

My reaction may have been overblown, but, one can get annoyed if people state their own facts for their arguments.
I don't think you liked it when people said you automated "everything" when you disputed that claim earlier.

Edited by BelgiumFury
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1 hour ago, BelgiumFury said:

If zev made them (but that would have been before he was a leader), he never implemented them, we do not script infra rebuilds, and that I can guarantee.

My reaction may have been overblown, but, one can get annoyed if people state their own facts for their arguments.
I don't think you liked it when people said you automated "everything" when you disputed that claim earlier.

I mean that was literally his shtick. The point I was drawing out is Rose/ most other major alliances run scripts/bots for a myriad of activities. This isn't a NPO only thing, and of most major alliances I've always believed we're the most manual of the lot (though I guess its about even.)

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