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Politics and Bots


Raphael
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Alex always said any bot is illegal but there are bots he can't stop/he can't prove they are used so he's forced to allow them, that banking bot is this case

Same for another bot used by IQ where if you declare on someone inactive they instalog to hit you back (didn't noticed recent use of that)

I think the solution is making that bot unnecessary by changing how the bank works and allow any player to withdraw from the bank with some limitations, see this 

 

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I disagree. The current forms of automation out there are beneficial to the game. For example the war stats npo provides. As for banking, all that is modifying who can access it and how much they can access. Which as manual input is still required is fine. You must realize most bots out there are useing api's Alex provided specifically for that purpose.

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I have to say, I disagree. So long as it's within the rules of the game, I don't think bots are an issue. I'm not sure I agree with Alex's assessment on this particular issue of the banking bots because they are instantaneous and don't require any okaying from gov in the moment to move funds, from my understanding (and I could be wrong because I've never used these bots). However, Alex has said it is allowed as far as I know, so any alliance can do this. Is it an advantage that BK or GOONS have to be able to receive funds in a more instantaneous manner? Absolutely. But if it's been given the green light by Alex, the solution is to up your own game instead of trying to dismantle theirs, in my opinion.

Edited by Princess Adrienne
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13 hours ago, Princess Adrienne said:

I have to say, I disagree. So long as it's within the rules of the game, I don't think bots are an issue. I'm not sure I agree with Alex's assessment on this particular issue of the banking bots because they are instantaneous and don't require any okaying from gov in the moment to move funds, from my understanding (and I could be wrong because I've never used these bots). However, Alex has said it is allowed as far as I know, so any alliance can do this. Is it an advantage that BK or GOONS have to be able to receive funds in a more instantaneous manner? Absolutely. But if it's been given the green light by Alex, the solution is to up your own game instead of trying to dismantle theirs, in my opinion.

I think in this case, he's proposing directly addressing the gap in the rules that we have here. Even leaving aside the fact that systems like this mean that account information is being exchanged/collected - which in itself is a violation of game rules, banking-bots have always skirted a fine line. The impact that they have clearly had in the BK case, along with various issues surrounding game balancing and rule violation to do with your account's details, means a change wouldn't be a bad idea.

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Guest Frawley
21 hours ago, Micchan said:

Alex always said any bot is illegal but there are bots he can't stop/he can't prove they are used so he's forced to allow them, that banking bot is this case

Same for another bot used by IQ where if you declare on someone inactive they instalog to hit you back (didn't noticed recent use of that)

I think the solution is making that bot unnecessary by changing how the bank works and allow any player to withdraw from the bank with some limitations, see this 

 

Pretty sure its your side with the insta-GA :P

I'm very against this, bots are useful for automating the grindy but pointless parts of this game, stats collection, bank approvals etc.

Unless Alex was to provide a much more functional api, which allowed input into the game as well as data extraction I think the current scenario has the balance right.

Also I learned coding making stat bots for CN/OE/AE/etc/etc/etc its a great way to get people into that sort of thing.

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11 minutes ago, Frawley said:

I'm very against this, bots are useful for automating the grindy but pointless parts of this game, stats collection, bank approvals etc.

Its a browser sim... its meant to be grindy..  bots are useful for automating bank approvals?.. yeh.. or just idk..have a competent Econ team? oh wait this makes those irrelevant.. 

11 minutes ago, Frawley said:

Also I learned coding making stat bots for CN/OE/AE/etc/etc/etc its a great way to get people into that sort of thing.

This sounds rather grindy and pointless?

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-SAXON-

-Warband Leader of the Nordic Sea Raiders-

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Guest Frawley
16 minutes ago, Unwanted said:

Its a browser sim... its meant to be grindy..  bots are useful for automating bank approvals?.. yeh.. or just idk..have a competent Econ team? oh wait this makes those irrelevant.. 

It's a browser sim, its meant for people who either a) have an interest in politics, or b) don't have the time to invest in a real game.  WoW should be grindy, not political sims for time poor people in a world where most game access is done from a mobile.

Regarding Econ teams, perhaps we do have a competent one.  We just might like dual approvals for transfers, or we might hold cash for private banks, or we might issue bonds, there are a tonne of reasons why allowing players to expand the game's secondary codebase enhances it for the game at large.

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1 hour ago, Micchan said:

What's a insta-GA?

It's when I blockade hold you for 53 turns.

 

(We're aware that at least parts of KERCHTOG$ seem to have scripts that enable at least auto-notificatino on declare and push them immediately to a screen with pre-filled computer-determined optimal attack. The Insta-GA is an extension by just taking the human entirely out of the loop.)

Edited by Inst

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1 hour ago, Inst said:

words

can also add here that the bulk of KTs blitzes and declarations happen during snore (the technique got around alot it seems) also making their blitzes at the start of this war, and others/past blitzes so "effective", i'd actually added it into our guides at NSR in case we had to fight them at points after they dropped us (and we did have to fight them in the end),  by having the declare page already open/using multiple tabs and refreshing the page ~15-20 seconds before snore hit avoids the captcha so you can hit them on the dot of the turn change (including beige leavers) while average players sit on the snore page,  the 4min wait time didn't affect that either with the new update, sure i can GA pretty fast myself, within the same minute, but only if im sitting there waiting for the declarations, or hovering my war page which i do alot, the push notifications from the site/app do not help you react faster, you still need to login/go to your war page, and issue the attack itself, so saying "we just hit the noti and presto! we GA after" is bs imo

Edited by Unwanted

-SAXON-

-Warband Leader of the Nordic Sea Raiders-

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I'll clarify that Insta-GA is what NPO etc is accusing KERCHTOG$ of doing, and I have never seen the evidence. I have with success hit KERCHTOG$ with planes before they could ground, and to the best of my knowledge "man-in-the-loop" Insta-GA is legal. So I'm not sure if KERCHTOG$ elements have resorted to automatic warfighting or, if it does happen, who would be using it and whether it's authorized by their alliances.

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On 1/14/2020 at 2:45 PM, Bartholomew Roberts said:

I would like to bring up the discussion of whether automation should be allowed and to what degree.

Agreed.

You shouldn't be allowed to use any bots, scripts or software that actively plays the game for you in a way that you get an in game advantage over other players, for example decoding the Keno, autoclicking baseball for additional money, automatically doing a ground attack when you get declared on, before the attacker can do anything and the likes.

 

Getting banking, which is only a question of how many has access, automated is basically making it more accessible and actually overall safer for the alliance, than having to either be very depending on a few people to send them stuff from the alliance bank OR having no security, but a lot of people have access to the bank.

 

While automated banking like that DOES give an advantage for the ones using it in your example, it's not (in my eyes) an unfair advantage since you're not adding resources to the game, you're simply moving them around. If you ask me, Alex should implement proper banking and other community driven ideas to the game, so we're not having to rely on 3rd party software for companies like banks, newspapers, alliance bank software, etc. If we instead had a sub category, like Baseball, where those things could be enabled and set up properly, everyone would share the same benefits, at least to some extent.

 

This is a community driven game and for a game like that, there's exceptionally few things that you can actually do with other people in the game that's actually engaging (if you imagine playing this game without ever taking anything outside of the P&W site and forum).

"Don't argue with members of The Golden Horde. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." - Probably someone on OWF.

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9 hours ago, Inst said:

(We're aware that at least parts of KERCHTOG$ seem to have scripts that enable at least auto-notificatino on declare and push them immediately to a screen with pre-filled computer-determined optimal attack. The Insta-GA is an extension by just taking the human entirely out of the loop.)

Dont question my caffeine filled sleep cycles.

8 hours ago, Unwanted said:

can also add here that the bulk of KTs blitzes and declarations happen during snore

I am 100% sure that declaring war is possible during snore. However, doing attacks is impossible. If you mean by blitz the declarations, yes, one can do a blitz at snore, preventing people from launching attacks during the entire length of 8 minutes and possibly even suppress notifications. Using a flaw in game design doesnt mean a bot is involved.

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On 1/14/2020 at 8:45 AM, Bartholomew Roberts said:

Tiberius is also out of gas, fortunately he can automatically withdraw it via software even though his alliance government is also asleep. Tiberius can then execute his attacks immediately and wins the war.

What's the difference between this and giving someone bank access? It allows more flexibility than what sheepy provides in game from government tiers. There's an argument to be made about whether it's fair that alliances are able to create an ad-hoc 4th tier of government rank that has bank access but no other privileges but people have been asking the admin for more government ranks for years and he hasn't provided them so idk.

 

For the argument of whether they're breaking player access rules by using others accounts idk since I have no idea how they function so I can't comment on that particular issue.

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