Account hacking (Leo)

[Arawra]

Alex should implement his own recruitment bot into pnw tbh. I agree with the sentiment of banning all bots, but only after Alex does what I said prior, and until then, handles them on a case by case basis. In this case, I don't think a banking bot should be permitted and I sense that Alex was not fully aware of how it operated or what its operations included.

[Tapatios]

21 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

So gorge gets banned we are all wrong
So gorge do not get banned it was luck on his side

You are full of it lol, if gorge do not get banned and no one is banned then Leo clearly faked the hack and was lying.

So yeah, clearly you use like for ever the short lights.

[Leopold von Habsburg]

27 minutes ago, James II said:

I'm for banning anything that gives you an advantage with clicking. Scraping for data fine, but anything that makes it easier for you, an advantage other players don't have should be banned. New players don't come in with that ability. The allowance only serves communities that are well established. It gives a gross advantage to a handful of alliances, and deters fresh faces from popping up.

I agree, having bots and scripts to literally log onto someone's nation and send out banking stuff is ridiculous. Doing 100/100 taxes should create more work for an alliance to micromanage all the finances of their nations. They should not be allowed to create a bot to just automatically put food and resources into nations.

[lightside]

23 minutes ago, Leopold von Habsburg said:

I agree, having bots and scripts to literally log onto someone's nation and send out banking stuff is ridiculous. Doing 100/100 taxes should create more work for an alliance to micromanage all the finances of their nations. They should not be allowed to create a bot to just automatically put food and resources into nations.

I don't think you know how bknet works. Its not automatic at all. Everything there requires manual input. The best way to think of it would be that it gives every nation in the alliance the ability to access the bank. However they only can take out what they put in. Which Alex has already expressly given permission for.

Edited January 14, 2020 by lightside

[Tapatios]

8 minutes ago, lightside said:

I don't think you know how bknet works. Its not automatic at all. Everything there requires manual input. The best way to think of it would be that it gives every nation in the alliance the ability to access the bank. However they only can take out what they put in. Which Alex has already expressly given permission for.

Let them, basically I explain in 3 ways, is just like talking to a wall.

[Clarke]

32 minutes ago, lightside said:

I don't think you know how bknet works. Its not automatic at all. Everything there requires manual input. The best way to think of it would be that it gives every nation in the alliance the ability to access the bank. However they only can take out what they put in. Which Alex has already expressly given permission for.

Was he wrong though in what he said, I don't believe he was and that isn't talking to a brick wall. 
Edit: maybe he needed to clarify it was automatic to an extent. Either way that isn't the issue, the issue is logging into another nation to get them to do something. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Clarke

[Leopold von Habsburg]

42 minutes ago, lightside said:

I don't think you know how bknet works. Its not automatic at all. Everything there requires manual input. The best way to think of it would be that it gives every nation in the alliance the ability to access the bank. However they only can take out what they put in. Which Alex has already expressly given permission for.

I get that Alex has given permission for this. Alex has been known to retract some of his decisions if they don't work or are un fair.

If Leo the Great is not physically clicking send to that stuff that his nation is sending to people ,even if what they requested was theirs to begin with, it should be outlawed. There is no reason why something like that should be allowed.

If someone goes into bk net, submits a withdrawal request and then Leo the Great sees it and goes and fulfills that request, there's nothing to complain about. I'm under the assumption this is not the case.

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

59 minutes ago, Leopold von Habsburg said:

I get that Alex has given permission for this. Alex has been known to retract some of his decisions if they don't work or are un fair.

If Leo the Great is not physically clicking send to that stuff that his nation is sending to people ,even if what they requested was theirs to begin with, it should be outlawed. There is no reason why something like that should be allowed.

If someone goes into bk net, submits a withdrawal request and then Leo the Great sees it and goes and fulfills that request, there's nothing to complain about. I'm under the assumption this is not the case.

When I had my War chest in BKnet, due to the 28 billion of cash and RRS i pulled out i waited until Gorge was at work, withdrew everything knowing that Gorge would not see it until he got home, AS the BKnet do not need the banker to log on or do anything, its all automatic, When Alex signed off on this I believe Alex was lied to as they told him that the person who was withdrawing pressed a button then the banker has to press a button (that's how it was explained to me when i asked how they got this past Alex) but that's not how it works.

[Exar Kun -George]

 

Alright, 

 

Sorry for the late reply, i've been on a posting restriction for two days. Anyways getting right into it 

 

1. I did not have any back door whatsoever, before i left bk i had money in an account i never withdrew, BK neglected to remove it so i took the opportunity to withdraw it using the normal methods. Essentially just like anyone else in BK, I logged into my account, went to accounts, entered the amounts and withdrew. Not once did i “breach” security. BK did not remove my funds or block my account from accessing it, any old member of BK with an account can also do this (and have in the past). (same account ive always had btw) 

2. I never logged into Leos account, the backend banking system logs into Leos account via a server, this accusation i'm not going to spend much time on as Alex can check IPs. This argument is lolzy, by Leos standards we need to ban every BK member

3. I never touched PnW or its backend system when pulling the money out, therefore Alex has no jurisdiction. He set a precedent of this forever ago so good try 

 

I was not going to respond to this but figured hell with it. The idea i hacked someone made me laugh so hard, I don't have that kind of ability, hell i've even had to ask some of these NPO people responding for help with some semi basic coding / database questions through time. 

 

On that note, grow up, it's clear I did not break any rules. It's quite clear this is to further your agenda on kicking players you don't like out of the game. I even returned the stuff after your misfortune. I've forwarded all needed proof and ss to Alex, he can make the call. 

[Lossi]

6 hours ago, Kastor said:

Tricky.

 

I would say any bot that can make a function that normally requires a person to click a button to function should not be allowed. IF that means recruitment bots are banned, then they should be banned. However, since there are other functions that stop spam(5 minutes for new nations) and other stuff, I believe that recruitment bots should be allowed, as long as Alex checks them.

Wasn't what he stated.  Any rules you can write, I can find a reasonable use that would be banned by it.  The rules as they are, are fine, so long as everyone is allowed access to the same tools and abilities.

[Salt Meat]

On 1/14/2020 at 12:36 AM, Bjorn Ironside said:

Whats the difference between BKnet and a baseball bot?, well apart from a baseball bot being safer? both give an unfair advantage vs those who do not use bots. 

What would a baseball bot of this style accomplish, exactly?

With 1 for 1 inputs, you've replaced clicking a baseball button over and over in game, with clicking a baseball button over and over out of the game, and accomplished... absolutely nothing.

[Buorhann]

6 hours ago, George said:

I've forwarded all needed proof and ss to Alex, he can make the call. 

I can't wait.

[namukara]

I agree that a tool which allows funds to be withdrawn from the bank without the banker needing to be active increases unfairness within the game and should be banned. Games should not be 'code to win,' if your banker can't log on for a while then you don't get the cash out of the bank. Even if it is 'your own money,' that's part of the risk of making a safety deposit.

I deposited some money and resources with the TI bank, if I want to get them back and tyrion isn't online, kind of going to struggle with that one. It must be noted as well that this makes it extremely easy for BK members to bank potential loot just before beige, as they are fully aware they can instantly get it back. The rest of us don't have that security.

[Salt Meat]

16 minutes ago, namukara said:

I agree that a tool which allows funds to be withdrawn from the bank without the banker needing to be active increases unfairness within the game and should be banned. Games should not be 'code to win,' if your banker can't log on for a while then you don't get the cash out of the bank. Even if it is 'your own money,' that's part of the risk of making a safety deposit.

I deposited some money and resources with the TI bank, if I want to get them back and tyrion isn't online, kind of going to struggle with that one. It must be noted as well that this makes it extremely easy for BK members to bank potential loot just before beige, as they are fully aware they can instantly get it back. The rest of us don't have that security.

Where do you draw the line though? An alliance that has a recruitment script has an advantage over one that does it by hand. An alliance with someone who knows how to use the API and get statistics about themselves and others has an advantage over someone who does it by hand. I mean, an alliance with a more active government has a much bigger advantage moving funds than one with a less active government. Do you limit daily play time to make things more fair for inactives?

As was said earlier, the solution isn't to try and drag everyone down to your level, but rather to step up your own game.

[Buorhann]

10 minutes ago, Salt Meat said:

As was said earlier, the solution isn't to try and drag everyone down to your level, but rather to step up your own game.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh..........

This isn't a sport, and it's been known that people used bots to sabotage others before.  Until things are more secured, I'd say just take it all down.  Equal out the playing field in that case.

[Salt Meat]

37 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh..........

This isn't a sport, and it's been known that people used bots to sabotage others before.  Until things are more secured, I'd say just take it all down.  Equal out the playing field in that case.

Take down what exactly, though? Most every alliance of consequence uses the API in some way for tracking their own stuff, even if some of the major alliances use it to it's maximum potential. Plus the NPOwned stats that many seem to enjoy looking at.

I don't think putting the game into the dark ages helps anything.

[Leopold von Habsburg]

1 hour ago, Salt Meat said:

Where do you draw the line though? An alliance that has a recruitment script has an advantage over one that does it by hand. An alliance with someone who knows how to use the API and get statistics about themselves and others has an advantage over someone who does it by hand. I mean, an alliance with a more active government has a much bigger advantage moving funds than one with a less active government. Do you limit daily play time to make things more fair for inactives?

As was said earlier, the solution isn't to try and drag everyone down to your level, but rather to step up your own game.

This is a ridiculous comparison. Getting info from the API is not the same as having a bot/script perform in game functions such as withdrawals to nations. The API is not logging onto your account. The API is also endorsed by the game and touted as an accessible feature. BK's bank scheme is not. If recruiting bots fall under the same category as this thing with BK's bank then maybe they should go too.

 

Your comparison of bigger governments have the advantage is moot. That's actual players doing things. Not a bot running your leaders nation to do all your banking transactions handless on his part. If people are doing the work, real people and playing the game how could you even be daft enough to make that comparison? You're  really reaching to try to justify why something like this should remain in the game when it's pretty blarringly obvious it shouldn't.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Leopold von Habsburg

[Salt Meat]

33 minutes ago, Leopold von Habsburg said:

This is a ridiculous comparison. Getting info from the API is not the same as having a bot/script perform in game functions such as withdrawals to nations. The API is not logging onto your account. The API is also endorsed by the game and touted as an accessible feature. BK's bank scheme is not. If recruiting bots fall under the same category as this thing with BK's bank then maybe they should go too.

 

Your comparison of bigger governments have the advantage is moot. That's actual players doing things. Not a bot running your leaders nation to do all your banking transactions handless on his part. If people are doing the work, real people and playing the game how could you even be daft enough to make that comparison? You're  really reaching to try to justify why something like this should remain in the game when it's pretty blarringly obvious it shouldn't.

I would argue that it is indeed "endorsed" by the game considering it's been previously OK'd and several alliances have similar systems now for years.

It's still actual players doing things. It's not some sort of dystopian fully automated robot running the alliance like you imply, it's a 1:1 ratio of inputs to game actions. BK member presses button, and performs action, same as a government member would do. This just makes the economic side of the game more accessible and adds more interaction for rank and file players. 

Any alliance can create a similar system to make the game more accessible to it's players, much like any alliance is free to learn to use the API for whatever they desire.

[Leopold von Habsburg]

6 minutes ago, Salt Meat said:

I would argue that it is indeed "endorsed" by the game considering it's been previously OK'd and several alliances have similar systems now for years.

It's still actual players doing things. It's not some sort of dystopian fully automated robot running the alliance like you imply, it's a 1:1 ratio of inputs to game actions. BK member presses button, and performs action, same as a government member would do. This just makes the economic side of the game more accessible and adds more interaction for rank and file players. 

Any alliance can create a similar system to make the game more accessible to it's players, much like any alliance is free to learn to use the API for whatever they desire.

The script is playing his nation for him. It is loggin onto his account and doing an action that only alliance government has the power to do and as you probably experienced, it's easy to exploit.

You have no moral high ground to stand on here to justify why this is a perfectly ok thing to utilized. I don't care if Alex has ok'd them in the past. I think he needs to outlaw them going forward. Make the 100/100 alliances actually have to put in effort if they want to run their alliances in such a controlling way. Don't allow them to automate their whole banking system to a point where the bankers don't even need to log on anymore. That is just ridiculous.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Leopold von Habsburg

[Kastor]

I agree with Leo,

 

basically, we’re at the point where alliances don’t even need government members. There’s a bot that controls what they need, people are now just glorified advisors that talk to the leader. There’s no skill involved to separate alliances. Takes away from the fun, tbh.

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

Everyone is saying this was approved by Alex, so my idea for a new bot would be 100% ok with them as it will react just like the BKnet.

I will get a group of players together, get them to all enter their Emaill and password, and they will never have to log on again as I will use a site like BKnet to tell that nation to send X amount from one bank to another as little as $1. making sure those nations remain active so they can be taxed 100/100.

This is all BKnet does really, someone logs on request money the BKnet logs the banker on and sens it, so might as well set something up to keep nations active, would not be shocked if NPO does not have something like this for the nations who play other games under NPO but do not wish to play PnW

[Arthur Wellington]

1. Point in question remains that BK got hurt during a big war without it being a regular ingame event. People leaving over loosing, however lame it is, is still a ingame event. This was not. 

2. Whatever BK and or Leo has done during this war, it was with regular ingame events. This was not.

3. Bjorn and Gorge are clearly full of BK hate, so hardly to be taken seriously. Discussion about BKnet is all good and well but does bot negate point 1 and 2.

4. Gorge might not have done this, but several actions over the last few weeks/months certainly bot speak for him. Thats up to alex. 

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

2 hours ago, Duke Arthur said:

1. Point in question remains that BK got hurt during a big war without it being a regular ingame event. People leaving over loosing, however lame it is, is still a ingame event. This was not. 

2. Whatever BK and or Leo has done during this war, it was with regular ingame events. This was not.

3. Bjorn and Gorge are clearly full of BK hate, so hardly to be taken seriously. Discussion about BKnet is all good and well but does bot negate point 1 and 2.

4. Gorge might not have done this, but several actions over the last few weeks/months certainly bot speak for him. Thats up to alex. 

When you pull your head out and come up for air, you will read some of my comments and understand where I stand, but as BK are blind I will explain.

1) Nations being removed from BK, I hope whoever did that gets banned, if someone hacked Leo's account they should be banned, IF Leo did it as he has done before he should be banned for faking being hacked.

2) Forcing people to quit is not an ingame event no matter how you look at it, or try to twist it.

3) Two players that BK and allies has lied about, and openly stating they would force us to quit, and we do not have the right to live, should we have love for you? 

4) The BOT should have been banned for a long time, I bet Alex did not fully understand how it worked, if he knew that anyone can log on to BKnet and send cash using someone else's nation with that person not needing to log on, he would ban it.

[Shadowthrone]

25 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

1) IF Leo did it as he has done before he should be banned for faking being hacked.

[citation needed]

 

[Guest Elijah Mikaelson]

8 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

[citation needed]

 

Alex states no one hacked his account so yeah he did it himself