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Account hacking (Leo)


Guest Elijah Mikaelson
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12 minutes ago, Khanter Molchaniye said:

more words

So, as far I understand, Gorge or anyone used a back door (hacking and since is PW API, even being 3rd party site, is still covered by PW terms) pushes away the RSS, pull out Leo's password and kicked out all the Archdukes, Viceroys and Econ Members and probably IA or Defense members too. 

this bit here about covers it, same thing happened with Zodiac in part, the bots were Compromised, leading to a clusterfrick of problems ingame also

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7 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

To select communities, you mean.

Gaming the system and automating functions of PnW should be against the rules. It confers an unfair advantage. Whether there are a "large number" of things relying on unethical exploitation is a non-factor.

 

I don't mind using scripts to collect information from the game, the API is designed for that. Once you begin utilizing scripts to automate functions and actions, I think it crosses a line.

So draw the line, tell me what is and isn't acceptable in your mind.

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38 minutes ago, Unwanted said:

@Charles the Tyrant  Not simple at all to solve, since if they knew what they were doing, they could have actually used Leos own IP address to do it for e.g

Ok, explain this one.  My knowledge of networking IP may be too primitive to see how.

56 minutes ago, Khanter Molchaniye said:

-snip-

I only ask to stop the stupid salt for 2 minutes and swap the situation and make ir yours. <<What if...>> This happen to you?

I appreciate the explanation, and I can definitely see the perspective.

As for the question, I honestly can't relate.  I wouldn't tie my account to a bot/script at all in the first place.  Not only due to me being a antagonizing individual in some situations, but also due to being a leader of an AA.  Just too much risk there.

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8 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

He was unauthorised to use BKnet, had a dummy account and breached the security of the site for in-game benefits. Its quite clear, its against any terms and conditions IRL. It's like someone who was at an office, set up a backdoor and quit. Later used that backdoor to steal stuff for his new boss etc. It's against most terms and conditions of websites. So lets not try to equivocate on something as simple as that. 

 

Gorge deserves what's coming to him for using an unauthorised backend access to BKNet, to get into Leo's account and pull out stuff, he was not authorised too. Was it terrible security, maybe, but he still broke it, and deserves everything that's coming to him. 

BKnet isn’t PnW, regardless of whether it was used or not, that isn’t in Alex’s jurisdiction to punish George.
 

also, I’m pretty sure that BKnet was used to kick inactives, or at least has that function. Which is how BKers got kicked. 
 

doesn’t seem to break the rules, except BKnet, seems to be against the rules which makes me wonder why Alex allowed it. 
 

My main point is, it becomes super easier to hide the bank and reorganize it with this bot, making it impossible to actually take money. Surely this violates the fairness in trading and banking section of the PnW rules. 

Edited by Kastor
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Guest Karl VII
18 hours ago, Clarke said:

Ridiculous logic : You allowed people to access your account with 3rd party software, your 100% responsible for anything that happens.

Corrected it for you.

20 minutes ago, Kastor said:

BKndt isn’t PnW, regardless of whether it was used or not, that isn’t in Alex’s jurisdiction to punish George.

Alex literally makes the rules, really there's no such thing as jurisdiction here. Also hacking BKnet to steal resources and somehow kick members is very much related to PnW and I can imagine that Alex has an interest in stopping such behaviour.

 

Also it is very obvious that all of this was Gorge if you don't assume that somehow two different individuals hacked themselves into our system simultaneously which is actually ridiculous.

Edited by Karl VII
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9 hours ago, Roquentin said:

Alex has allowed it. I wasn't keen on everything like that being automated originally but he opened the door with yoso's original bot and then TKR made one and then it goes on and on.

BK cleared their bank system with Alex over 3 years ago.

To be clear, this isn't my personal vendetta against BK. I think TKR, Yosobot, and all others should be banned from using actions in-game. Information gathering is fine, can't really police that anyway. Using a bot to perform an action through an account while someone isn't actually at their keyboard is the definition of unethical botting.

3 hours ago, Rosey Song said:

So draw the line, tell me what is and isn't acceptable in your mind.

You literally quoted my line. "Gathering information is fine, executing actions within the game are not".

 

@Alex I honestly hope there's some misunderstanding here and you didn't truly allow these people to effectively bot your game. I can't even begin to tell you how unfair that is to players who do things manually.

I'm honestly leaning towards the other people here. Where is the line on botting? If it's fine to simply access other people's accounts via third party software, then why can't I make an alliance of slave-accounts that I can access via my third party software? War bots? Trade bots?

Why even play this game if the alliances with coders can simply automate and gain distinct advantage?

 

fricking laughable.

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4 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

Ok, so does that mean the person who presumably used the bot to get Leo's password logged into Leo's nation and kicked the individual nations out one by one?

Surely that means the IP of who logged into Leo's nation should be recorded and it's a simple act of checking the IP and cross-referencing it against known IPs?

Seems pretty straightforward to resolve. 

That’s what we’re hoping for, though Alex hasn’t logged in since this occurred. 

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1 hour ago, Karl VII said:

Corrected it for you.

Alex literally makes the rules, really there's no such thing as jurisdiction here. Also hacking BKnet to steal resources and somehow kick members is very much related to PnW and I can imagine that Alex has an interest in stopping such behaviour.

 

Also it is very obvious that all of this was Gorge if you don't assume that somehow two different individuals hacked themselves into our system simultaneously which is actually ridiculous.

There’s a difference between Alex taking a move to protect players and Alex overstepped the rules he’s created to punish a player. You’re asking for the ladder to happen. That’s what I think, and I think a lot of people think, is wrong.

If it was just that he backdoored into BKnet, then what’s the difference between someone backdooring into a forum or discord? Both interfere directly with the game. 
 

So if George went into BKnet, a third party site, took out the money, and kicked nations and never physically logged into Leo’s nation, then shouldn’t be in trouble.

 

Also, for note on the IP addresses, if Leo’s IP comes back(which I expect it will, actually) then I DEMAND that he’s banned for violation of the rules, and BK gets a bank fee taken off. If his IP comes back that means that they have been illegally using and violating the bot system to circumvent the rules. Which means that Leo’s wasn’t doing any of the transactions and they have been illegally hiding the bank for years. That’s worth at least a 30% deduction and a ban for whoever lied to you about how it works, @Alex

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Guest Karl VII
23 minutes ago, Kastor said:

There’s a difference between Alex taking a move to protect players and Alex overstepped the rules he’s created to punish a player. You’re asking for the ladder to happen. That’s what I think, and I think a lot of people think, is wrong.

If it was just that he backdoored into BKnet, then what’s the difference between someone backdooring into a forum or discord? Both interfere directly with the game. 
 

So if George went into BKnet, a third party site, took out the money, and kicked nations and never physically logged into Leo’s nation, then shouldn’t be in trouble.

 

Also, for note on the IP addresses, if Leo’s IP comes back(which I expect it will, actually) then I DEMAND that he’s banned for violation of the rules, and BK gets a bank fee taken off. If his IP comes back that means that they have been illegally using and violating the bot system to circumvent the rules. Which means that Leo’s wasn’t doing any of the transactions and they have been illegally hiding the bank for years. That’s worth at least a 30% deduction and a ban for whoever lied to you about how it works, @Alex

I think the difference between what gorge did and hacking into someones discord/forum is that this actually directly resulted in in game consequences (he is the direct cause of another players nation doing smth, idk how to word it better). It wasn't just information that was leaked. Also tbh i wouldn't mind banning someone who gets caught hacking himself into other players discord/forum accounts but maybe our opinions just differ in that regard. 

Edited by Karl VII
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"which isnt a function of bknet."

Ill break this down for the brickwalls here (sadly i can't do pop up images):

Discord banking/War aid bot:41uvFRc-UPL._SX342_.jpg

BKnet: 1453855189020.jpeg

Ingame Alliance and Nations:0029034-lg-fridge-glb221argy.jpg

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-SAXON-

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1 hour ago, Karl VII said:

I think the difference between what gorge did and hacking into someones discord/forum is that this actually directly resulted in in game consequences (he is the direct cause of another players nation doing smth, idk how to word it better). It wasn't just information that was leaked. Also tbh i wouldn't mind banning someone who gets caught hacking himself into other players discord/forum accounts but maybe our opinions just differ in that regard. 

The difference is "in-game" and "out-of-game" even if something from "out-of-game" affects the "in-game" as long as said action wasn't taken "in-game" then Alex should not take action.

 

Also, we don't know what BKnet does and doesn't do. There's too much in the air and too much stuff that we cannot say without a doubt that BKnet can and cannot do these things. Therefore George shouldn't get banned at all.

 

If you want another rule example, Green was a player who was exchanging RL cash for In-game cash. Because of that, and it created an unfair advantage, Alex banned you from doing that, because it wasn't "fair". Alex did not ban Green, nor did he force Green to destroy the money he had obtained with it.

Alex should keep that same philosophy with this, ban BKnet, scold George, and make a rule stating that if 3rd party account interact of give advantages through in-game functions, they're banned. Seems fair and everyone wins.

 

Edit: It's not like George hacked into Leo's account or stole Leo's password through other means, it was public, for all to see, and gave a ton of people backdoor access. Because of that, Alex taking a hardline stance on it would basically be terrible. It's not like George used an exploit or broke the game.

Edited by Kastor

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
1 hour ago, lightside said:

I feel like alot of you are missing the point. The hacker did get onto leos pnw account. We know that because he used it to mass kick members, which isnt a function of bknet.

And you have all failed to prove Gorge was part of that, once Alex looks at it and make a judgement you should not blame someone for something you can not prove.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
8 hours ago, Khanter Molchaniye said:

I can answer you wih my assumption. The bot can not. But everyone is trying to make Leo Responsible that they do not care about common sense.

The BKnet uses PW API, so even if is not a PW site, has PW coding (the API) therefore has is not entirely apart of PW rules and T&C. To use the API you agree with a serial of rules and terms.

BKnet is just an automatic cashier bank, like in real life you deposit your money with an account number and code, and you withdraw from your account.

However, if someone does a backdoor, violating the integrity of the code and the API used there, you compromise a serial of security stuff, and like everything on internet with brute force you can pull a password.

So, as far I understand, Gorge or anyone used a back door (hacking and since is PW API, even being 3rd party site, is still covered by PW terms) pushes away the RSS, pull out Leo's password and kicked out all the Archdukes, Viceroys and Econ Members and probably IA or Defense members too. 

I highly believe that was not a random kicking.  So for real all this ping pong of whatever this others that ask for public proofs and claims that is not PW matter and is to blame Leo and just Leo and bla bla.... They should know that if they have a bot, and the bot is using PW API, therefore the bot is related to PW terms and rules. So yes, administration has the right to check in and take messures on it. And if a member is discovered of malicious intentions, I do not see why people just jump in defense of that person or praise that person.

 

I only ask to stop the stupid salt for 2 minutes and swap the situation and make ir yours. <<What if...>> This happen to you?

The problem you seem to fail to understand, Who said gorge did both? no one has proven Gorge logged on the account, IF alex come back and states Gorge logged on to Leo's account via his ip and ban Gorge i will admit i was wrong and say sorry, but the truth is you are calling wolf with no idea who did it.

We all know gorge had taken the money that's been proven, but you have not proven gorge kicked anyone and as Gorge used BKnet to move the funds something anyone who has a BKnet account can do, you have failed to prove gorge did anything wrong within the game.

BKnet should be banned and all programs and sites like it, Any 3rd party program that need account details to log on for someone to complete tasks should be banned. then these sort of things will not happen.

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5 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

To be clear, this isn't my personal vendetta against BK. I think TKR, Yosobot, and all others should be banned from using actions in-game. Information gathering is fine, can't really police that anyway. Using a bot to perform an action through an account while someone isn't actually at their keyboard is the definition of unethical botting.

You literally quoted my line. "Gathering information is fine, executing actions within the game are not".

@Alex I honestly hope there's some misunderstanding here and you didn't truly allow these people to effectively bot your game. I can't even begin to tell you how unfair that is to players who do things manually.

I'm honestly leaning towards the other people here. Where is the line on botting? If it's fine to simply access other people's accounts via third party software, then why can't I make an alliance of slave-accounts that I can access via my third party software? War bots? Trade bots?

Why even play this game if the alliances with coders can simply automate and gain distinct advantage?

 

fricking laughable.

Excellent points. 

This is my thought anyway regarding this now. If you allow other people access to the game through your account and someone accesses your account maliciously through the same means as these other people which you allowed, either no one did anything wrong here or everyone is guilty including you(the player). This game doesn't have nation sitting as far as I am aware and this would be an abuse if it did. 

Edited by Clarke
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10 hours ago, Khanter Molchaniye said:

Not really. Leo did not made the post. And as humans we can rant whatever we want. Excuse me if you are perfect. 
Said that, you do not know if there is a private message or not, so hush hush. Fake paparazzi.

He did but we aren't allowed to talk in the report. And my point isn't if he made a private complaint as well, I assume he did, but since he also made a public accusation then it's the duty of BK gov to provide proof to back up their public accusations. 

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53 minutes ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

And you have all failed to prove Gorge was part of that, once Alex looks at it and make a judgement you should not blame someone for something you can not prove.

Did you even read what wrote? i am guessing not. If you did you would realize i didn't even mention gorge...

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4 hours ago, Kastor said:

 

If it was just that he backdoored into BKnet, then what’s the difference between someone backdooring into a forum or discord? Both interfere directly with the game. 
 

So if George went into BKnet, a third party site, took out the money, and kicked nations and never physically logged into Leo’s nation, then shouldn’t be in trouble.

 

Also, for note on the IP addresses, if Leo’s IP comes back(which I expect it will, actually) then I DEMAND that he’s banned for violation of the rules, and BK gets a bank fee taken off. If his IP comes back that means that they have been illegally using and violating the bot system to circumvent the rules. Which means that Leo’s wasn’t doing any of the transactions and they have been illegally hiding the bank for years. That’s worth at least a 30% deduction and a ban for whoever lied to you about how it works, @Alex

I think you are the drama queen.

I go again to explain basic logic of system of terms and conditions to you, since seems that you ignored my lecture:
> Politics and Wars is a Site.
> Politics and Wars Provide an API
> Therefore the API is an Extension of Politics and Wars
(What is an API: An application programming interface (API) is a particular set of rules ('code') and specifications that software programs can follow to communicate with each other. )
> What can an user do with an API? Pull stats, between other things by a third party interface.
> Rules says that 3rd party things are a no-no, why BKNet and other thing is allowed? Because they have authorized use of the API and BKnet itself is just an Easy UI for the users, so instead seeing an awful Google docs API sheet, we see a website.
> "Breaking in BKnet does not break rules!" Wrong, despite being a 3rd Party site, Politics and Wars API is on use, so whoever did this (avoiding blame your Friend because you transform into a Drama Queen) Break in a site that is using an extension of Politics and Wars, therefore, there is a violation to Politics and Wars terms.

> "I DEMAND", Buddy, you and any enemy of BK, to be honest, you have been messing around with leaks, and I tell you what, the server owner where you pulled the leaks could easily demand you since you and your buddies Broke Discord T&C, Security and Safety terms, and by extension when you slander in your spam posts, Politics and War got involved. I suggest you to stop whimpering on stuff that apparently you are innocent, unless you have a guilty feeling. Do you?

> "They have been illegally using and violating the bot system to circumvent the rules" Wrong again.The RSS are not hiding, you just want easy stuff. The API was created by Alex, and if you read again and quote again: <<is a particular set of rules ('code') and specifications that software programs can follow to communicate with each other.>> so to use API is necessary to do a plataform for it. So stop being jealous that you cannot build what BK or any other has created. And learn Python and Django (PHP has too many security issues)

1 hour ago, Bjorn Ironside said:

1º) The problem you seem to fail to understand, Who said gorge did both? no one has proven Gorge logged on the account, IF alex come back and states Gorge logged on to Leo's account via his ip and ban Gorge i will admit i was wrong and say sorry, but the truth is you are calling wolf with no idea who did it.

We all know gorge had taken the money that's been proven, but you have not proven gorge kicked anyone and as Gorge used BKnet to move the funds something anyone who has a BKnet account can do, you have failed to prove gorge did anything wrong within the game.

2º) BKnet should be banned and all programs and sites like it, Any 3rd party program that need account details to log on for someone to complete tasks should be banned. then these sort of things will not happen.

By paragraph here:
> No-one has proven to you. You are not an Admin. Heck, you are not even a mod or wiki mod. You are just someone who broke a promise to BK. If Gorge get banned, then was Gorge, if Gorge by some lucky reason does not get banned, despite his baits, and mocks, well Devils luck needs to end some day. But if some other gets banned by exploiting and hacking into Leo's account, then I will by myself apologize to him. At the end Errare Humanum Est.

> Do me a favor, seems that you read my first explanation, but I did a second so Kastor could understand better, Read that too please, and if you both keep whining around, then is logic that common sense is the last of common of all senses (that or you both just have the short lights)

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6 hours ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

To be clear, this isn't my personal vendetta against BK. I think TKR, Yosobot, and all others should be banned from using actions in-game. Information gathering is fine, can't really police that anyway. Using a bot to perform an action through an account while someone isn't actually at their keyboard is the definition of unethical botting.

You literally quoted my line. "Gathering information is fine, executing actions within the game are not".

 

@Alex I honestly hope there's some misunderstanding here and you didn't truly allow these people to effectively bot your game. I can't even begin to tell you how unfair that is to players who do things manually.

I'm honestly leaning towards the other people here. Where is the line on botting? If it's fine to simply access other people's accounts via third party software, then why can't I make an alliance of slave-accounts that I can access via my third party software? War bots? Trade bots?

Why even play this game if the alliances with coders can simply automate and gain distinct advantage?

 

fricking laughable.

So recruitment bots, not okay?

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Former leader of Chocolate Castle 4/1/2021

"It's pretty easy to get abused by Rosey without being a weirdo about it" - Betilius

"Rosey is everything I look for in a fighter" - partisan

"I’m very much not surprised that Lossi has you blocked tbh" - @MCMaster-095

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3 minutes ago, Rosey Song said:

So recruitment bots, not okay?

Tricky.

 

I would say any bot that can make a function that normally requires a person to click a button to function should not be allowed. IF that means recruitment bots are banned, then they should be banned. However, since there are other functions that stop spam(5 minutes for new nations) and other stuff, I believe that recruitment bots should be allowed, as long as Alex checks them.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
54 minutes ago, Khanter Molchaniye said:

blah blah blah

So gorge gets banned we are all wrong
So gorge do not get banned it was luck on his side

You are full of it lol, if gorge do not get banned and no one is banned then Leo clearly faked the hack and was lying.

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Just now, Bjorn Ironside said:

So gorge gets banned we are all wrong
So gorge do not get banned it was luck on his side

You are full of it lol, if gorge do not get banned and no one is banned then Leo clearly faked the hack and was lying.

He's done that before.

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson
2 minutes ago, James II said:

He's done that before.

We all know he has done it before, that's why I do not believe anyone will get banned and Leo will say its unfair all of IQ will cry the rest of the game will laugh at it

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