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Unacceptable Behavior


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50 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Not really. I think you don't particularly get the reasons why people dropped out, They dropped out because it was too hard to keep going. No one has been under threat that didn't do something in some way. You can pretend everyone is getting violated sovereignty-wise, but you literally are condoning multiple bank heists with your side's embrace of Gorge,   all the shady stuff Akuryo has been involved in,  Sphinx/Alexio wanting to bankrupt Chaos, embrace of deserters, and so on. It's more suicidal to be at peace with people who has made their agenda clear.   The fact that nothing matters to your side besides just hate of a few alliances means you will always be blinded to anything else.

Again this is why we don't think your side is ever honest, you're using nation counts just like at the start of the war. If you were really downtrodden, there'd be no hope no matter what the intervention this late in. You made it out to be like the alliances were beyond repair, and so on. Like I said you staged a passion play.  Where your nations are tiering-wise is the most important factor. You've always used this justification to mess with us/BK/etc.

We can't retain "allies' that want to play on easy mode. It just never works and in every war that was shorter we've always lost the weak-willed. Stop pretending otherwise.

So yeah after the North Point crap you guys are pulling, it's at the point of no return. You're playing a game of chicken and expecting us to blink and it's not going to happen.

At a certain point numbers matter. 1700 vs 400 is definitely in that arena. Nothing disingenuous about that, sad you see it that way. Tiering certainly has a lot to do with it but you’ve shown yourselves to have the grit and determination to turn a much smaller numerical advantage into a slog with effective coordination. So forgive me for being threatened by an active, coordinated alliance with reasons to wipe us off the face of Orbis.

To your other point around the “hatred” part, sure, lots of people hate y’all on our side. Sure, they’ve been vocal. But there’s also been a significant faction of folks on our side who feel they have the freedom to break with whatever party line you all give the most attention at any one time. We act significantly less like a monolith than you all. That could be a testament to your discipline, or something more telling. I’d rather have a diverse coalition that allows dissent, than what, at least from the outside, your side is experiencing.

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1 hour ago, Roquentin said:

Not really. I think you don't particularly get the reasons why people dropped out, They dropped out because it was too hard to keep going. No one has been under threat that didn't do something in some way. You can pretend everyone is getting violated sovereignty-wise, but you literally are condoning multiple bank heists with your side's embrace of Gorge,   all the shady stuff Akuryo has been involved in,  Sphinx/Alexio wanting to bankrupt Chaos, embrace of deserters, and so on. It's more suicidal to be at peace with people who has made their agenda clear.   The fact that nothing matters to your side besides just hate of a few alliances means you will always be blinded to anything else.

Again this is why we don't think your side is ever honest, you're using nation counts just like at the start of the war. If you were really downtrodden, there'd be no hope no matter what the intervention this late in. You made it out to be like the alliances were beyond repair, and so on. Like I said you staged a passion play.  Where your nations are tiering-wise is the most important factor. You've always used this justification to mess with us/BK/etc.

We can't retain "allies' that want to play on easy mode. It just never works and in every war that was shorter we've always lost the weak-willed. Stop pretending otherwise.

So yeah after the North Point crap you guys are pulling, it's at the point of no return. You're playing a game of chicken and expecting us to blink and it's not going to happen.

You were caught lying over and over again as per the leaked logs. What point are you trying to make about dishonesty?

 

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2 hours ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

This man has a point. What right do NPO and co have to state how anyone else should play this game?  I've seen Roq and Keshav state that they aren't playing by Coal A's rules as part of their reasoning for prolonging this war and that they shouldn't expect the same courtesy we have provided them in previous wars when it came to ending them promptly. By that same token, why should we have to abide by whatever rules NPO wishes to impose on playing style?

We have no right. Metagame rules are formulated by a combination of persuasion and force, not by right.

However, no one has any right to have their preferred rules for warfare and diplomacy ratified by anyone else. Coalition A chose, piecemeal and over time, to ignore the desires and objections of the core of Coalition B. That's fine since we don't have a right to be listened to, but it did have consequences. You didn't persuade us and, because we're not micros or pixel huggers, you can't force us to acquiesce to your demands. We, on the other hand, may well force you to acquiesce to ours before this is over because, unlike you, we probably have the military muscle to finish the job.

Maybe consider that the next time someone tells you they have a half-baked idea for a new metagame that they're sure no reasonable person could object to.

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20 hours ago, Roquentin said:

I mean I don't think you get the outcome of Sphinx and Akuryo's little power move here. If we all beige each other who's gonna hurt more people that like having infra or people that don't care and like to war indefinitely?

Hope this will suit you. I'll stop on the subject but I'm just going to spell out that you've personally helped open the door to something really fun. :)

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1 hour ago, Edward I said:

We have no right. Metagame rules are formulated by a combination of persuasion and force, not by right.

However, no one has any right to have their preferred rules for warfare and diplomacy ratified by anyone else. Coalition A chose, piecemeal and over time, to ignore the desires and objections of the core of Coalition B. That's fine since we don't have a right to be listened to, but it did have consequences. You didn't persuade us and, because we're not micros or pixel huggers, you can't force us to acquiesce to your demands. We, on the other hand, may well force you to acquiesce to ours before this is over because, unlike you, we probably have the military muscle to finish the job.

Maybe consider that the next time someone tells you they have a half-baked idea for a new metagame that they're sure no reasonable person could object to.

Pretty amateurish to believe that military muscle is the tool required to finish this job and get us around to accepting your manner of thinking. Especially considering half of your own starting coalition have rejected such thinking.

It's the fundamental flaw in your alliance's strategy which is based upon numbers and strength alone.

Truth be told, if I was member of NPO or BK, I would be furious with my gov for passing up a sure victory a couple months ago in return for what is essentially an open and growing insurgency. The costs of which NPO's members are being asked to mostly bear since nearly two thirds of guineas are no longer paying taxes and the likes of Camelot , goons and BK along with others on your coalition are being supplied by NPO.

I'm amazed NPO's gov hasn't been couped because you lot sure as hell deserve it for sheer incompetence.

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34 minutes ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

Pretty amateurish to believe that military muscle is the tool required to finish this job and get us around to accepting your manner of thinking. Especially considering half of your own starting coalition have rejected such thinking.

It's the fundamental flaw in your alliance's strategy which is based upon numbers and strength alone.

Truth be told, if I was member of NPO or BK, I would be furious with my gov for passing up a sure victory a couple months ago in return for what is essentially an open and growing insurgency. The costs of which NPO's members are being asked to mostly bear since nearly two thirds of guineas are no longer paying taxes and the likes of Camelot , goons and BK along with others on your coalition are being supplied by NPO.

I'm amazed NPO's gov hasn't been couped because you lot sure as hell deserve it for sheer incompetence.

Go big or go home!

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1 hour ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

Pretty amateurish to believe that military muscle is the tool required to finish this job and get us around to accepting your manner of thinking. Especially considering half of your own starting coalition have rejected such thinking.

It's the fundamental flaw in your alliance's strategy which is based upon numbers and strength alone.

Truth be told, if I was member of NPO or BK, I would be furious with my gov for passing up a sure victory a couple months ago in return for what is essentially an open and growing insurgency. The costs of which NPO's members are being asked to mostly bear since nearly two thirds of guineas are no longer paying taxes and the likes of Camelot , goons and BK along with others on your coalition are being supplied by NPO.

I'm amazed NPO's gov hasn't been couped because you lot sure as hell deserve it for sheer incompetence.

Good thing no one ever listens to you. Not even TGH in this war. 

Our starting coalition were mostly micros and other weak alliances that would have been happy if we won on day one and that's it. We were never going to be able to appease most of those alliances. They wanted it too fast.

No one cares  about that.  A bad peace is worse than war - Tacitus. People that are tough enough to handle fighting the reconsolidated EMC should be funded. 

Again this would have been a million times worse if we let these people pull this crap months from now. That's why it's the lesser evil to have it happen now. There has been no potential for anything else to happen because they've solidified and with Sphinx's powerplay where apparently he was going to have the whales beiged anyway acccording to new intel just shows the level of duplicity these guys are up to which makes us look relatively angelic. So we have no real incentives here. The whole playing possum aspect was a good trick that pulled the wool over people's eyes and at this point third parties may eventually see that it's just mutual hatred playing out and if they have no investment in it, then why pay attention?

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30 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Good thing no one ever listens to you. Not even TGH in this war. 

Our starting coalition were mostly micros and other weak alliances that would have been happy if we won on day one and that's it. We were never going to be able to appease most of those alliances. They wanted it too fast.

No one cares  about that.  A bad peace is worse than war - Tacitus. People that are tough enough to handle fighting the reconsolidated EMC should be funded. 

Again this would have been a million times worse if we let these people pull this crap months from now. That's why it's the lesser evil to have it happen now. There has been no potential for anything else to happen because they've solidified and with Sphinx's powerplay where apparently he was going to have the whales beiged anyway acccording to new intel just shows the level of duplicity these guys are up to which makes us look relatively angelic. So we have no real incentives here. The whole playing possum aspect was a good trick that pulled the wool over people's eyes and at this point third parties may eventually see that it's just mutual hatred playing out and if they have no investment in it, then why pay attention?

A bad peace? You weren't even obligated to enter, yet you did, confirming IQ hadn't broken up and stuff wasn't as "dynamic" as it was meant to be. This situation is of your own making.

Surf's Up was a legitimate dynamic war... So your "consolidation" rhetoric rings empty too. Do you think it was easy fighting former allies in TKR? No, it was not.

Edited by Don Juan
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8 minutes ago, Don Juan said:

A bad peace? You weren't even obligated to enter, yet you did, confirming IQ hadn't broken up and stuff wasn't as "dynamic" as it was meant to be. This situation is of your own making.

Surf's Up was a legitimate dynamic war... So your "consolidation" rhetoric rings empty too. Do you think it was easy fighting former allies in TKR? No, it was not.

This is funny considering your AA now. It has nothing to do with IQ or whatever besides the fact that we actually have rapport with one side over the other. Coalition B was never going to be able to handle it on their own and was way more fragile than KERTCHOGG. It's a bad peace given we're shouldering the flak given the origination point, so we won't peace with people that made it clear they feel most wronged by us while they retain their structural advantages. That's really not productive. We won't be on the hook and waiting for them to come while your alliance gets off consequence-free.

It wasn't. There was little in terms of political motivation or objectives. It was a 2nd best to doing what happened anyway after. Stop pretending otherwise. It doesn't ring empty given you're even signing Rose most likely.  I'm expecting Rose to sign more people too on the same side and it's been rumored for a while.

Edited by Roquentin
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42 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

People that are tough enough to handle fighting the reconsolidated EMC should be funded. 

You literally pushed all the whales into one coalition, including your own.

Edit: Let's not forget that you rebirthed IQ when you joined the war on BK's side.

Edited by REAP3R

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3 minutes ago, REAP3R said:

You literally pushed all the whales into one coalition, including your own.

We didn't. They think it's easier that way and most of them talk to each other. It's pretty ridiculous what an old boy's club it is.

They hated Sphinx less than they did us and he saw an opening to get back in their good graces and partner up with as many as possible flip flopping on EM, protecting George, Rose, getting Don Juan to join and the list goes on. 

You don't know how cliquey they are.

Edited by Roquentin
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Just now, REAP3R said:

 

Yeah, I mean it's not like we don't have people confirming Sphinx made this plan with Akuryo to set us up by beiging all the whales and the crap George pulled.  There's just no words for that.

Edited by Roquentin
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45 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

That's why it's the lesser evil to have it happen now.

Interesting that you think pissing off the majority of the game’s community is the lesser evil.

I guess at this point it makes sense.  I’d have a hard time seeing anyone trust any leadership who follows your perspective.

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1 minute ago, Buorhann said:

Interesting that you think pissing off the majority of the game’s community is the lesser evil.

I guess at this point it makes sense.  I’d have a hard time seeing anyone trust any leadership who follows your perspective.

You're pissed off anyway. You've been pretty clear the entire time with your stances.

You've always said this anyway. You gave us no choice but to reciprocate your negativity. What did you expect? 

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7 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Yeah, I mean it's not like we don't have people confirming Sphinx made this plan with Akuryo to set us up by beiging all the whales and the crap George pulled.  There's just no words for that.

Syndicate are also whales last I checked, and they helped you fight the whales in Kerchtogg cause they wanted them to take damage. Dunno how that would insinuate underlying good relations.

Regarding Sphinx, the raiding plan was North Point's contingent in case IQ brought us back into the war over bullshit (which is what happened), and Sphinx only started making moves against you guys when you brought us back in the war over bullshit, among his own set of grievances with your coalition which he already outlined publicly. The original intention was for Sphinx to leave the war separately from coalition B, but you gave him not much choice when you attacked allies defended under our supremacy clause.

I'm actually surprised Epi did not inform you of our contingency plan since I'm pretty sure he was informed about it in a voice chat. You ought to ask him why he would so desperately want you guys to hit North Point by claiming we did not try diplomacy.

And just to set the record straight, the plan was devised by Akuryo and George because they feared IQ would drag them back into this clusterfrick of a war, Sphinx was uninvolved. When the coalition logs were leaked with things like Leo saying North Point was a future threat and Keshav saying they should have never peaced out North Point, it was very likely we would be dragged back in and so the plan was made.

Edited by REAP3R

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1 minute ago, Roquentin said:

You're pissed off anyway. You've been pretty clear the entire time with your stances.

You've always said this anyway. You gave us no choice but to reciprocate your negativity. What did you expect? 

Sure, I am.  However, I’m not TCW, TKR, CoA, Carthago, OWR, etc.  They all have their own thoughts to the situation.

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6 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Sure, I am.  However, I’m not TCW, TKR, CoA, Carthago, OWR, etc.  They all have their own thoughts to the situation.

Those are all really contradictory. Those wanted to go their own way without us and we still have to deal with you. With CoA it's pretty funny, but they would have to actually follow through on rhetoric and they were just too focused on following tS.  We've gone over OWR and Carthago before. They didn't want to fight to win, so they bailed and we did criticize Carthago for not trying but we did try to sort it out and we always supplied them when needed. With both OWR and Carthago they never really had positive feelings towards us even before the war, so it was natural they would try to screw us.

With TKR again, their members/gov were pretty openly antagonistic and there was no real way it was going to work out. The town wasn't big enough and there was too much unresolved on both ends and the Chaos signing was seen as pretty aggressive. I"m not really sure what you expected to happen? 

 

  

9 minutes ago, REAP3R said:

Syndicate are also whales last I checked, and they helped you fight the whales in Kerchtogg cause they wanted them to take damage. Dunno how that would insinuate underlying good relations.

Regarding Sphinx, the raiding plan was North Point's contingent in case IQ brought us back into the war over bullshit (which is what happened), and Sphinx only started making moves against you guys when you brought us back in the war over bullshit, among his own set of grievances with your coalition which he already outlined publicly. The original intention was for Sphinx to leave the war separately from coalition B, but you gave him not much choice when you attacked allies defended under our supremacy clause.

They didn't really care. They just didn't want us to help Coalition B so keeping us out was the goal so they set the conditions and they thought it'd be a short excursion and BK would get wiped clean. 

Edited by Roquentin
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10 minutes ago, Roquentin said:

Snip

I made an edit to the original post that you might want to read. Regardless though, they wanted to keep you out because they didn't want to assist BK if I remember correctly, and it seems like the compromise then was to hit Kerchtogg whales, but considering the flaming that occurred in Syndicate's thread as you might recall, I still don't think you can seriously argue there were underlying good relations. Unless that was feigned just like Surf's Up.

Edited by REAP3R

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4 minutes ago, REAP3R said:

I made an edit to the original post that you might want to read. Regardless though, they wanted to keep you out because they didn't want to assist BK if I remember correctly, and it seems like the compromise then was to hit Kerchtogg whales, but considering the flaming that occurred in Syndicate's thread as you might recall, I still don't think you can seriously argue there were underlying good relations. Unless that was feigned just like Surf's Up.

There were underlying good relations. They're old friends. It was just they didn't trust Kayser as much. It was easy for it to all go away with a "Roq manipulated us and have at it".

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Just an aside here to say Reaper is correct on who came up with the plan. Twas George and myself and it was originally designed to be sued by NP and Demacia. Whether it ever became official in Demacia I don't know, but I had every intention of going rogue with it.

 

I also find it interesting how the paranoia of Coalition B doesn't take issue with the fact that Camelot's leader and 2IC were two facing them, not only planning to leave the war but actively conspiring and part of the discussion on how to respond to IQ aggression. 

Then again I guess IQ prefers the kind of loyalty that comes from burning literally any other bridge they had that wasn't Pappa Row or Mommy Leo. That's fine, we here at North Point are very understanding and never kinkshame ones preferred method of Hegemonic Imperialism.

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13 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Just an aside here to say Reaper is correct on who came up with the plan. Twas George and myself and it was originally designed to be sued by NP and Demacia. Whether it ever became official in Demacia I don't know, but I had every intention of going rogue with it.

 

I also find it interesting how the paranoia of Coalition B doesn't take issue with the fact that Camelot's leader and 2IC were two facing them, not only planning to leave the war but actively conspiring and part of the discussion on how to respond to IQ aggression. 

Then again I guess IQ prefers the kind of loyalty that comes from burning literally any other bridge they had that wasn't Pappa Row or Mommy Leo. That's fine, we here at North Point are very understanding and never kinkshame ones preferred method of Hegemonic Imperialism.

And Sphinx knew right and he wanted it to happen?

I mean, obviously they took issue with some aspects of your scheming and I know Camelot was upset over Seeker but there was at least an opportunity presented to make things right. At least one alliance offered a way we could do something for them. It's not meant to be a one way street. We're willing to back people up when they've backed us up.

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