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Cool Bear

Seeking Clarification Regarding Multiple Warnings for the Same Post

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I've been hearing mixed messages, so I was wondering if the mods could please clear this up for me, in regards to forum moderation.

My specific question is:

How many warnings can be given for a single post?

 

I was under the impression that you could only get one warning for one post. However, I think I might be misinterpreting the clarification posted here: 

 

Because in practice, it looks like you *are* allowed to receive multiple warnings for the same post, even for the same rule, as long as the warnings are issued more than a day apart? 

I've described some scenarios here, would anyone mind explaining how it works to me? Thanks!!

 

Example: 

Person A makes a rule-breaking post (Post A), which breaks 2 Rules (A and B) . Person A then goes on vacation and doesn't post for a week.

Person B makes a rule-breaking post (Post B ) , which breaks 1 Rule (B). Person B then goes on vacation and doesn't post for a week.

 

Is this scenario allowed for person A:

1 Warning Point Issued for Breaking Rule A (within 24 hours of the post)

1 Warning Point Issued for Breaking Rule B (within 24 hours of the post)

1 Warning Point Issued for Breaking Rule A (30 hours AFTER the first warning point)

1 Warning Point Issued for Breaking Rule B (30 hours after the second breaking Rule B warning)

So in total, after 48 hours, they would receive 4 warning points -- two on day 1 and two more on day 2 or 3. Is this because Person A didn't edit their post after the first two warning points were issued? 

 

Does this mean Person B can get 1 warning point per 24 hours? But only once every 24 hours, while person A can get two warning points, and an additional two every 24+ hours, because they had two infractions in their first post? Is 24 hours the correct threshold time?

 

How does this interact with multiple rule-breaking posts? eg: A person C, who makes two posts on the same day, where each post breaks Rule C? It sounds like...

1 Warning Point Issued for Breaking Rule C for Post 1 (within 24 hrs of the post)

1 Warning Point Issued for Breaking Rule C for Post 2 (24+ hours after that)

And then you ding them 2 warning points per day after that?

 

My friend has definitely gotten warned multiple times for the same post, but I think he didn't edit his post (I don't think he was allowed to, because of the warning?), and I'm just trying to understand how to prevent those second and third warnings from happening. The "getting an additional warning point for the same post for the same infraction, continuously" part is what's confusing me, mostly, because I'm not sure how users are supposed to prevent it from happening?

 

Any clarification about how these rules work would be much appreciated, thank you.

 

 

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Given that it is not possible to edit a post while you are on a forums mute, I don't think it would be fair to expect people who are on a mute to edit their offending posts to keep from getting warned again for the same post. On this note, it's also difficult in the extreme for a muted user to seek clarification or clemency while muted, since they cannot send private messages to the moderation team on the forums, and there is no non-forums method of contacting an individual moderator due to their strict anonymity.

It also is unfair, in my opinion, to levy more than one warning for a given post, since the clear intent of being warned for a post is for the forum moderation team to communicate that the post broke the rules.

Then again, some members of the moderation team have made clarifications on how they personally process reported posts, where said clarifications strongly imply that they assume that a reported post is always a post which breaks the rules and issue warning points based on a process of elimination, rather than observing the context of the post and determining themselves if the post breaks the forum rules.

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Let me check your warn history, if I see double moderation I will revoke the copy warn

 

Edit: Are you sure you were double warned? You dont have a single warn on your account

 

Edit: RIP did not read correctly, no you shouldnt receive multiple warns for one post. If your friend has been double moderated have him send me a message. To everyone else, If this happened to you, PM me and I'll investigate it and fix the issue

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I also want to note that during the review process, a post in question will show above the post for moderators to indicate that post was warned for. 

 

Now let's say the person broke the same rule twice in one day, I only suggest one point(unless I deem a verbal is warranted, which will not give you a point), so in the report I'll type my suggestion on the first one and then go to the second report and link to the first one and suggest the second report to be closed to avoid double moderation

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25 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

, I don't think it would be fair to expect people who are on a mute to edit their offending posts to keep from getting warned again for the same post.

In theory, this shouldn't happen. When us moderators go the post from the report, if the post shows an already existing warn we should automatically close the report and potentially hide the post if it continuously gets report or editing out the parts the post violated. I am starting to "edit" and click the option to show I edited it publically with a message to show transparency and hope that it shows the members that the post has already been reviewed by the moderator team. If someone got double warned, I will state once again to have them PM me as PMs are never disabled unless we ban you from adminCP(which never happens) and I'll investigate and remove any unnecessary warnings. 

 

30 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

It also is unfair, in my opinion, to levy more than one warning for a given post, since the clear intent of being warned for a post is for the forum moderation team to communicate that the post broke the rules

I just answered this a minute ago, in most cases, only one warning will be issued for one post. Only time more than one points is given for one post is if it violates these rules:

OoC Threats and Personal Information

Revealing another player's personal information or making threats against them is grounds for an immediate ban.

Death Wishes

Telling another player to kill themselves or wishing that they would die or other posts of that nature are strictly prohibited and grounds for a minimum 2 warning point increase.

  • The phrase 'kys' will only be assumed to mean "Kill Your Self" and therefore will result in the minimum 2 point warn. (joke or not)

For OoC Threats and Personal information, 7 warn points will be issued at once to issue the ban. I have only seen this happen once the entire time I have been a moderator and for death threats come with a minimum 2 point warn.

 

If the rule violation doesnt match those criteria, it only gets one warn. 

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35 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

Then again, some members of the moderation team have made clarifications on how they personally process reported posts, where said clarifications strongly imply that they assume that a reported post is always a post which breaks the rules and issue warning points based on a process of elimination, rather than observing the context of the post and determining themselves if the post breaks the forum rules.

I have never seen a moderator state this, but I dont automatically assume every report comes with a rule violation. Majority of the reports I review end up with me suggesting to close the report due to not seeing a rule violation or one so tiny I dont think a warn or verbal is warranted and I follow steps when I make my suggestions, which is a pain on mobile, but I use my phone more often than I do on my desktop when I moderate. 

Step one: Check the report, see if any obvious rule violations can be seen

Step 2: go to the post itself and check the OP and the post in question to see if it is in topic.

Step 3: I check the player's warn history. If they never broke that rule and are not a experienced player of the forums(not game. I never consider a players ingame account's age. Old players who never joined the forums cannot be expected to know all the rules when they do decide to join the forums) then a verbal unless the violation is severe(which imo is rare for me to find somethinf severe) is suggested. If they have previous warns or should already have enough experience on the forums to know the rules, then i woild would suggest a warn if necessary. 

 

Now before someone ask me "why give oit verbal warnings if they dont givr a warn?" I prefere verbal warns over starting a PM directly to inform the member because then the other moderators dont know if i had communicated with the member and may accidentally double moderate. 

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2 hours ago, Olive Penderghast said:

In theory, this shouldn't happen. When us moderators go the post from the report, if the post shows an already existing warn we should automatically close the report and potentially hide the post if it continuously gets report or editing out the parts the post violated. I am starting to "edit" and click the option to show I edited it publically with a message to show transparency and hope that it shows the members that the post has already been reviewed by the moderator team. If someone got double warned, I will state once again to have them PM me as PMs are never disabled unless we ban you from adminCP(which never happens) and I'll investigate and remove any unnecessary warnings. 

 

I just answered this a minute ago, in most cases, only one warning will be issued for one post.

While it shouldn't happen in theory, the reality is that there are members of GOONS who have been warned multiple times for the same post while on a mute, and subsequently banned from the forums for racking up those warning points while still serving time in posting jail.

It is not possible to PM you or anyone else on the forums moderation staff while your account is muted. I obviously can't demonstrate this right now as I'm not muted.

E: As a note, "verbal" warnings do result in a mute if you already have more warning points than the threshold for a warning. I checked with Alex and he confirmed this is unintended.

Edited by dragonshardz

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59 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

is not possible to PM you or anyone else on the forums moderation staff while your account is muted. I obviously can't demonstrate this right now as I'm not muted

Actually yes you can still PM, if it doesnt, that is either a glitch or something on your end. Suspension/bans shouldn't be removing your access to Private Messages and i will check the settings again, plus I have had a conversation with a suspended account before so i dont think any settings were changed. If i cant change it I will find a way to communicate with members offsite so people can get in contact with Moderation.

 

59 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

"verbal" warnings do result in a mute if you already have more warning points than the threshold for a warning. I checked with Alex and he confirmed this is unintended.

I am not sure how verbals result in a warn, considering it doesn't add points. Moderstors do not touch the options to suspend or ban in the warn, and i have tested this on a test account and never experienced any issues with verbals.

 

59 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

GOONS who have been warned multiple times for the same post while on a mute

Not sure how, considering basic research would show they were already warned for a specific post. It doesn't require going through tons if pages, and if it has been reported before, every comment from the past shows up. All it does is re-open the report, and i instantly close those out without taking action when i notice them. If it was different posts breaking the same rules, i could see that happening due to multiple reports being sent, however a basic search, that every moderator should be doing, will tell them if they had already receiced a warning for the same rule violation(different post or not) or not - but sometimes moderators do make mistakes. I make some ever so often, and i will correct any i make, but i don't "correct mistakes" when my basic investigation shows there isnt a mistake and the member warned disagrees with the second moderator and I for the warn/verbal and to keep it from being biased, i always have another moderator or Alex(usually Alex) take a look to see if my initial conclusion is wrong when invetigating a complaint(which i havent received any complaints about moderation in my PMs lately, mostly on posts complaining about their warn.). To clarify, nobody has been warned on the same post as far as I can tell, considering a moderator can easily tell if they have been warned for that post or has already been warned that day already for breaking the same rule in the same day. I told you the basic steps taken, or the way I do it anyways, and i believe i have kept a unbiased moderation method to ensure i dont cause double moderation. If you can send me a PM proving someone on the moderation team is double moderating, i will bring it up to Alex and remove any unwarranted or dpuble moderated warn points in place. The Moderation Team does listen to the community(I do for sure as i read every post when members complain about moderation). Also, if you think moderation team is biased against GOONs, i can ensure you that we don't, as far as I can tell anyways. Until you can show me concrete ecidence via PM, i can't do anything or investigate for that matter

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Also, just tested the verbal thing. It doesn't suspend(mute) an account. I issued an inactive account 7 verbals(revoking the verbals after finishing my tests), did not suspend their access to the forums, signed into the account from AdminCP and sent a PM and was able to receive it so no, it doesn't suspend or mute you if you receive a verbal. Not sure where you got verbals can issue suspensions unless a moderator directly hits the option, which they shouldn't. We are required to follow the Warn System, so we can't click the option to suspend or ban account via verbal as the only way is to hit the milestone in the warn system is via an actual warn. 

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2 hours ago, dragonshardz said:

 While it shouldn't happen in theory, the reality is that there are members of GOONS who have been warned multiple times for the same post while on a mute, and subsequently banned from the forums for racking up those warning points while still serving time in posting jail.

That's not really true. I think the experience you're describing is wherein a user makes a bunch of rule-breaking posts (let's say eight) and as they're reported, reviewed, and warns are issued, at some point they're already suspended but they're still receiving warning points (for the rule-breaking posts, per the Forum Rules procedure.) It may appear as if they're receiving multiple warnings for the same post, but in reality, they're receiving warnings for different posts, they just broke the rules either a lot all at once, or their old rule-breaking posts just weren't reported and reviewed right away.

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That actually brings up another question I had, if you don't mind answering it:

If a bad poster makes a series of 8 rule-breaking posts in a one-day period, by the ruling specified in the linked thread, "

  • We tweaked the warn protocols so that people will not be double-warned for the same violation basically in a 24-hour period. It has happened in the past and it shouldn't be. "

This means:

If User A makes posts A, B, C, D (all breaking Rule A) at the same time on the same day:

User A gets warned for post A immediately (and is muted, so no longer posts). The user is not able to be double-warned for the same violation in a 24-hour period.

24 hours later, they get warned for post B (and get another point, because it's a different post).

24 hours after that, they get warned for rule C (and get another point, because it's a different post).

Then they get their final and fourth warning point 72 hours after the first warning point.

 

This gives a total of four warning points over four days, for one day of bad posting.

But if Post B had broken Rule B, then it would have been: two warning points on the first day, and they would have gotten their fourth warning point 48 hours after the first, instead of 72 hours afterwards.

 

Is that an accurate understanding of how the rules work? If you don't mind me asking, wouldn't it make sense to just give all the warning points at the same time? And do all four on the first day?

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Just answering some points in line:

  • Being muted does, in fact, prevent you from sending private messages.
  • Receiving a verbal does, in fact, mute a user if they already have enough warning points to receive a mute. EG, if I currently have 5 warning points, and a moderator issues a 0-point warning to me, the forum will mute me for 10 days. This happened to me specifically within the past few days, which was only fixed after I contacted Alex on Discord. Please see the attached screencap.
    • For the sake of testing both of the above, I am willing to take a 0-point warning for the purposes of getting the necessary screenshots.
  • @nippythefish says they were warned multiple times for the same post, to the point where they were banned (and thus cannot reply here) The sequence of events is:
    • Received a 1-point warning from Chief Wiggum, which put them into a forum mute
    • Received a 2-point warning from Jax for the same post while still muted
    • Received another 1-point warning from Olive Penderghast, while still muted. This warning then caused their account to be banned.
  • @The Meat reported a similar sequence of events to me via Discord - in both of these cases, I believe they have contacted Alex and attempted to beg clemency.

Erroneous mute for 0-point warn:528204652_2019-12-2519_18_24-Clipboard.png.9c2a3ce27508b1f9f0cc7c737bfa7bfb.png

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13 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

Receiving a verbal does, in fact, mute a user if they already have enough warning points to receive a mute

You do realize Alex has the ability to ban and suspend any account without going thorough the 7 warn system, right? I already tested it out. I used an inactive account as a test subject amd was never able to replicate anything to cause the automated system to trigger a suspension or ban

 

13 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

@nippythefish says they were warned multiple times for the same post, to the point where they were banned (and thus cannot reply here) The sequence of events is:

  • Received a 1-point warning from Chief Wiggum, which put them into a forum mute
  • Received a 2-point warning from Jax for the same post while still muted
  • Received another 1-point warning from Olive Penderghast, while still muted. This warning then caused their account to be banned

Just reviewed every warn, each one redirected to me to different posts, so no this is incorrect.

17 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

The Meat reported a similar sequence of events to me via Discord - in both of these cases, I believe they have contacted Alex and attempted to beg clemency

I just checked through their warn history as well,  and most of their warns were from continiously breaking the Non-Discussion Forums rule throughout multiple days. Only a few were for anything else, but every warn was for a different post throughout a month. 

22 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

Being muted does, in fact, prevent you from sending private messages.

It shouldn't, but ill look into it and see if there is a wqy to change that once i can replicate it. If not, ill find an alternative system where suspended members can get in contact eith a forum moderator, or you can go message Alex himself on Discord until i figure out an alternative system for members to  ontact forum moderators who are suspended/banned

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2 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

163908738_2019-12-2519_58_23-@Alex_PW-Discord.png.a9886b3374b4e76d1afcbaf8ffdd2cd0.png

:shrug:

I dont know what else to tell you when i literally tried to replicate the automated system suspending someone via verbal and it wouldn't. I tried 7 verbals, nothing, i tried 1 warn plus a verbal, nothing. I tried 2 warn points plus a verbal and it only enacted the the 2 point suspension instead of the 3 point suspension, i gave a 4 warn system and manually took off the suspension, had the inactive account acknowledge and then issued a verbal to try to have it enact the automated suspension for a 5 warn suspension ?‍♀️

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18 minutes ago, Olive Penderghast said:
42 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

Being muted does, in fact, prevent you from sending private messages.

It shouldn't, but ill look into it and see if there is a wqy to change that once i can replicate it. If not, ill find an alternative system where suspended members can get in contact eith a forum moderator, or you can go message Alex himself on Discord until i figure out an alternative system for members to  ontact forum moderators who are suspended/banned

 

I couldn't find a setting, I believe it was removed because I remember way back then there was a way to edit suspensions but can no longer see them, so unless Alex hid it or the forum provider took the option away, you are correct as far as I can tell. I am not going to replicate it as I will trust you on this and will find a way for muted Members to get in touch with the forum moderators in the future. 

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26 minutes ago, Olive Penderghast said:

I dont know what else to tell you when i literally tried to replicate the automated system suspending someone via verbal and it wouldn't. I tried 7 verbals, nothing, i tried 1 warn plus a verbal, nothing. I tried 2 warn points plus a verbal and it only enacted the the 2 point suspension instead of the 3 point suspension, i gave a 4 warn system and manually took off the suspension, had the inactive account acknowledge and then issued a verbal to try to have it enact the automated suspension for a 5 warn suspension ?‍♀️

"2 points warn plus a verbal applies a second 2 point suspension" is exactly the issue I described.

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Alright so for now, if you or a friend needs to get in contact, you can contact @Alex on discord(Alex_PW#4970), ingame here, or you can get in contact with me via email at: [email protected]

 

I will try to create a discord account soon and join the official Politics and War discord server when I have a chance to get on my desktop

1 minute ago, dragonshardz said:

"2 points warn plus a verbal applies a second 2 point suspension" is exactly the issue I described.

Oh, I may not have made myself clear, It only enacted the suspension when i added the 2 points. It did not enact anything else when i added a verbal afterwards, sorry for the wording.

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1 hour ago, Cool Bear said:

This means:

If User A makes posts A, B, C, D (all breaking Rule A) at the same time on the same day:

User A gets warned for post A immediately (and is muted, so no longer posts). The user is not able to be double-warned for the same violation in a 24-hour period.

24 hours later, they get warned for post B (and get another point, because it's a different post).

24 hours after that, they get warned for rule C (and get another point, because it's a different post).

Then they get their final and fourth warning point 72 hours after the first warning point.

 

This gives a total of four warning points over four days, for one day of bad posting.

But if Post B had broken Rule B, then it would have been: two warning points on the first day, and they would have gotten their fourth warning point 48 hours after the first, instead of 72 hours afterwards.

 

Is that an accurate understanding of how the rules work? If you don't mind me asking, wouldn't it make sense to just give all the warning points at the same time? And do all four on the first day?

If User A makes post A, B, C, D which all broke Rule A at the same time on the same day, and when we get the reports concerning them, we will check to see when the post was made, and if that day if they already received a warning for breaking Rule A.

If they have not I will go into Report A to make my suggestion to give a warn or a verbal, and then in B, C, D I will state a report for the same violation is <insert report link here> and suggest to close that report there. 

 

Now lets say one gets reported today,

and then its brought to our attention that he did it again on the same day. I would suggest to close the report since action was already taken. Remember warns/verbals can only be given when two moderators agree. So what happens if two moderators disagree? They have to wait for a third moderator to break the tie. Only exception to any of this is if Alex decides to make a decision, which then he wouldnt need to wait for a second mod approval or the third one. However Alex usually follows his 2-mod for action requirement as well. 

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30 minutes ago, Olive Penderghast said:

Oh, I may not have made myself clear, It only enacted the suspension when i added the 2 points. It did not enact anything else when i added a verbal afterwards, sorry for the wording.

I suggest testing it by giving someone 2 warning points, letting the 48h expire, then giving them a 0-point warning. This would replicate the order of events that caused the issue for me.

17 minutes ago, Olive Penderghast said:

Remember warns/verbals can only be given when two moderators agree. 

I can't say for certain, but I don't think this is known to anyone outside of the moderation staff. At the very least, it's news to me.

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5 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

I can't say for certain, but I don't think this is known to anyone outside of the moderation staff. At the very least, it's news to me.

I definitely didn't know it, and I've gotten a contrary impression from conversations in the past. I'd be very gratified to know if this was indeed the procedure.

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It is procedure, only Alex is the only one allowed to issue without second moderator approval. @Alex can confirm this when he comes on ?

 

1 hour ago, dragonshardz said:

suggest testing it by giving someone 2 warning points, letting the 48h expire, then giving them a 0-point warning. This would replicate the order of events that caused the issue for me.

I will give that a try and let y'all know what happens. 

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Olive, you issued me two warning points in 15 minutes for responding to a derail Noctis started in his own thread, another one for emptyquoting, while then 20 minutes later Alex issued me a warning for adding an instance of a person doing the exact behavior they were being reported for which is baffling how that violated no discussion rules. All these posts had been made days before. 

About the no discussion one in particular, there was a particularly egregious attempt to derail a report I made that was silently deleted. I mentioned this in a report thread about him doing many instances of the same behavior and was issued a warning point. I’m curious if this person received a full warning point for every single instance of a potentially rule breaking post like I did. 

Three warning points in 40 minutes for either minor and imo questionable issues seems excessive. And no, you can’t PM or appeal or do anything. I don’t know why you’re arguing that, it’s clearly untrue.

Ive also requested clarification in the past for a warning that didn’t make any sense to myself or other moderators and been ignored by Mr Meeseks so this time around I didn’t even bother until I noticed you're saying things here that are simply not correct.

A near week ban for posts of which one was a minor rule violation (emptyquoting) and the other were at best questionable is frankly excessive. While Alex over moderating was was probably just carpet bombing a disastrous thread and unaware, Olive you had to be deliberately doubling warning me since they happened almost simultaneously on posts that had been made well before.

I’m also confused about the two moderator things because when I got the 0 point from Meeseeks you told me no one else knows why that violated the rules, and since he ignored my PMs, who is the second person?

Edited by Zaurg
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7 hours ago, Zaurg said:

Olive, you issued me two warning points in 15 minutes for responding to a derail Noctis started in his own thread

I issued two warnings in the same day for violating two different rules, so it isnt considered as double moderation.

7 hours ago, Zaurg said:

And no, you can’t PM or appeal or do anything. I don’t know why you’re arguing that, it’s clearly untrue.

Clearly you cant fully read, i did admit that i was wrong as i was unawarw the automated suspension system took access away considering a full out ban done manually doesn't, so i was under the assumption it was the same with suspensions, so not sure why you are trying to drag that up for some extra points.

7 hours ago, Zaurg said:

Ive also requested clarification in the past for a warning that didn’t make any sense to myself or other moderators and been ignored by Mr Meeseks so this time around I didn’t even bother until I noticed you're saying things here that are simply not correct.

I remember your post and did answer you, not my fault if you didnt bother to read it correctly.

 

7 hours ago, Zaurg said:

when I got the 0 point from Meeseeks you told me no one else knows why that violated the rules, and since he ignored my PMs, who is the second person?

Excuse me, i never said no one else knows why that violated the rules, i stated i wasnt one of the moderators handling your report and explained what i thought was the reason they issued the warn. And for the second moderator. I dont exactly remember who it is and im not going through hundred of reports to find out considering the verbal was given a while ago. 

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What a tone. I did miss that last point. So anyway, the rest of my questions. You have time to dredge up old reports to issue warning points but you’re not going to bother to answer my repeated respectful requests for clarification?

I fail to see how hammering every (IMO minor) infraction while declining to clarify or explain rules is effective moderation.

Did you issue individual warning points for each post the person who off topic posted in my thread before their post was deleted in the same manner I was given points?

Edited by Zaurg

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