Fix Moderation as a weapon

[Exar Kun -George]

Hey @Alex

 

While i understand not wanting to punish people for making reports, i think it has become clear a lot of people are now reporting bull in the hopes you may agree with them and issue stikes. It really has gotten out of hand and needs to be resolved. If a word 9,000 years ago, when translated on google 3 times, jumping up and down while typing after petting your kitten and making chicken pot pie may have meant something bad back then, but has no current relevance is reported, it obvs is trying to use moderation as a weapon.(example is obvs fake but u get the point) 

 

Its time to step up and solve this issue as the admin of the game 

[Papi Winter]

A dumb goons member accusses of a police officer in my profile pic to be a nazi.

[Joi]

1 hour ago, Papi Salamander said:

A dumb goons member accusses of a police officer in my profile pic to be a nazi.

That was my report, and had the thread I made not been closed by Alex when it was I would have apologized for the mixup I'd made in there. 

My apologies. I didn't expect a person such as yourself to put a picture of one of their relatives in a police uniform as their avatar, so I thought there was something more to it. Since I couldn't determine the source of the photo you're using, I utilized the forums' reporting system to ask you what your avatar was. I even @'d you in that report so that you'd be able to respond in kind.

If I recall, nothing really came of it aside from you cursing me out for making an honest mistake. No harm, no foul.

[Sir Scarfalot]

I've legitimately had to report "burnt toast" as a slur, since apparently that's actually a pretty racist remark. Honestly I'd thought it was ableist, but there you go. (Warning, link goes to a database of slurs... obviously. So don't complain to me when your virgin eyes see something racist on it.)

There's literally no end to the level of unreasonable when pre-censored images can be reported as originally, and not even currently, having a swastika on it.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sir Scarfalot

[HARPER.txt]

I'd report this entire OWF as a "Slur" to me and Physically Damaging as I always leave here with headaches, but we out here anyway.

[Sir Scarfalot]

1 hour ago, Supreme Master Joi said:

That was my report, and had the thread I made not been closed by Alex when it was I would have apologized for the mixup I'd made in there. 

My apologies. I didn't expect a person such as yourself to put a picture of one of their relatives in a police uniform as their avatar, so I thought there was something more to it. Since I couldn't determine the source of the photo you're using, I utilized the forums' reporting system to ask you what your avatar was. I even @'d you in that report so that you'd be able to respond in kind.

If I recall, nothing really came of it aside from you cursing me out for making an honest mistake. No harm, no foul.

No harm no foul? Your accusation was nitpicking at best, and diningenuous virtue signalling at the cost of an innocents' reputation at worst. Have you even for a single second considered how inconvenient it is to have to defend oneself from litigation like yours? How ridiculously deep the rabbithole of arbitrary slurs and codes can go? Your own name for example, how can you justify "supreme master" when it's basically describing Nazi ideology? Master race, supremacy? I mean really, can you even deny that? There's NOTHING that can't be argued as offensive, and no end to the use of moderation as a weapon if it chooses to allow itself to be so abused. And abusive these behaviors surely are, as they damage the accused whether or not they get a moderation strike. The legal term is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation and it's very real.

That's why, in the past, we tried to be mature and reasonable. Ever since Goons arrived, though, they've brought an entirely new and destructive philosophy of nitpicking the hell out of anything they possibly can, with the now proven intention of causing their opponents to delete in frustration or due to moderation strikes. So, if you're serious about your apologies both to me and to Papi, then act like it. Be reasonable with your reports, and try to be mature about what you say and do. And for hecks sake, get the rest of your alliance to grow up too while you're at it, please?

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sir Scarfalot

[Joi]

9 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

No harm no foul? Your accusation was nitpicking at best, and diningenuous virtue signalling at the cost of an innocents' reputation at worst. Have you even for a single second considered how inconvenient it is to have to defend oneself from litigation like yours? How ridiculously deep the rabbithole of arbitrary slurs and codes can go? Your own name for example, how can you justify "supreme master" when it's basically describing Nazi ideology? Master race, supremacy? I mean really, can you even deny that? There's NOTHING that can't be argued as offensive, and no end to the use of moderation as a weapon if it chooses to allow itself to be so abused. And abusive these behaviors surely are. The legal term is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation and it's very real.

That's why, in the past, we tried to be mature and reasonable. Ever since Goons arrived, though, they've brought an entirely new and destructive philosophy of nitpicking the hell out of anything they possibly can, with the now proven intention of causing their opponents to delete in frustration or due to moderation strikes. So, if you're serious about your apologies both to me and to Papi, then act like it. Be reasonable with your reports, and try to be mature about what you say and do. And for hecks sake, get the rest of your alliance to grow up too while you're at it, please?

Yes, I consider that there was no harm done in the end, and thus no foul. I submitted a report, I @'d the accused so that they were aware that I was asking them what their avatar was. They responded and cursed me out for thinking that a blurry policeman's uniform looked like a Nazi's and Alex closed the thread. Rather than expressing anger at the person who cursed at me, I apologized and stated that I didn't feel fouled by their language.

I have thought about the inconvenience - I took time and energy in writing the report discussed - but posting on this forum in response to somebody else isn't all that inconvenient, to be honest. It's no more inconvenient to me than feeling compelled to respond the angry swipes you've been making at others and myself recently.

The Supreme Master Joi is a robotic persona, an android avatar of an up-and-coming (and totally fictitious) nation. There is absolutely nothing Nazi-adjacent about my country, my policies, or my nation page. You're going to have to stretch your definitions a little harder to prove to people that they should be offended by a nation of communist robots, humans, and cyborgs.

Perhaps you should step away from the computer and become a supreme master of your own joy? If you can't find peace on Orbis, try seeking it out somewhere else.

[Mandystalin]

Communist? So you're a supporter of regimes that indulge in mass-murder and politically-motivated inhumane incarceration?

Maybe I should report you ?

 

(Just backing up Sir Scarfalot's point)

[Joi]

17 minutes ago, Mandystalin said:

Communist? So you're a supporter of regimes that indulge in mass-murder and politically-motivated inhumane incarceration?

Maybe I should report you ?

 

(Just backing up Sir Scarfalot's point)

What point of Sir Scarfalot's are you trying to back up, exactly - that anything (like the word 'supreme') can be made offensive if you force controversial words into someone else's mouth?

Nowhere did I say that my communist nation was a supporter of human rights violations - that's something you brought into the conversation entirely by yourself.

This game allows you to play communists, capitalists, anarchists, monarchs, and even fascists. The rules are set on the fact, however, that you cannot play Nazis, terrorists, committers of genocide, or hate groups, and you cannot promote racist ideologies.

[Sir Scarfalot]

1 hour ago, Supreme Master Joi said:

What point of Sir Scarfalot's are you trying to back up, exactly - that anything (like the word 'supreme') can be made offensive if you force controversial words into someone else's mouth?

Nowhere did I say that my communist nation was a supporter of human rights violations - that's something you brought into the conversation entirely by yourself.

This game allows you to play communists, capitalists, anarchists, monarchs, and even fascists. The rules are set on the fact, however, that you cannot play Nazis, terrorists, committers of genocide, or hate groups, and you cannot promote racist ideologies.

Considering you've been forcing controversial meanings into your enemies' mouths since you joined, you don't have a valid point there at all. And you're a hypocrite. Grow up.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Sir Scarfalot

[Monokuma]

Have you tried using imagery that doesn't need swastikas and related symbols edited out of them?

Edited December 20, 2019 by Zetsubou
my original sentance as written caused me to smell burning toast on the re-read

[HARPER.txt]

@Sir Scarfalot Considering you've been forcing controversial meanings into your enemies' mouths since they joined, you don't have a valid point there at all. And you're a hypocrite. you Grow up., yous woke me, bad, i tried mate..yous wouldnt do anything but hate hate hate, and let that jade your vision and sense

and EPI you flame half of this sort of thing with your pettiness/snark/and all the proxy/delegated "improvements" to game you and your buds come up with anyway, let alone trying to blow everything out of proportion everywhere coz "yay drama" and still cry about it later/the "problems" you cause yourselves shush ❤️ 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Unwanted
Ill English this better later, oml you humans do my head in

[The Meat]

This moronic topic has me smelling burnt toast. I should seek help.

[Comrade Marx]

3 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Considering you've been forcing controversial meanings into your enemies' mouths since you joined, you don't have a valid point there at all. And you're a hypocrite. Grow up.

I know it was all fun and games harassing folks with lynching "jokes" and using the slightly more obscure Waffen SS insignia on your nation pages. I'm not sorry that you're upset that the free ride is over and feel the need to lash out and project your insecurities onto us. You're welcome to delete your nation if you don't like not being allowed to toss slurs around anymore, though. Nobody will miss you.

[Archibald]

14 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

I've legitimately had to report "burnt toast" as a slur, since apparently that's actually a pretty racist remark. Honestly I'd thought it was ableist, but there you go. (Warning, link goes to a database of slurs... obviously. So don't complain to me when your virgin eyes see something racist on it.)

There's literally no end to the level of unreasonable when pre-censored images can be reported as originally, and not even currently, having a swastika on it.

Oh did you, scarf? Did you -have- to report that? When they clearly were making a remark about strokes?

Hypocrite, much? You've added nothing to this conversation except whining you can't use slurs like so many.

@GeorgeIS right though, honestly, in that mass reporting (especially forum posts) is clearly being used as a weapon. One of the mods (I forget her name, apologies) at one point mentioned using past reports to determine action and that's rather silly for all cases considering just because one time someone trolled a thread doesn't mean this time they did without even looking at it??

It's obscene, to say the least.

[Archibald]

The most frustrating part, as I've said many times, is that there's no clear set of rules. There's a very vague one listed but after that it's like - what constitutes trolling? What constitutes insulting vs "just IC stuff"? What constitutes "providing evidence" vs just posting in a no discussion thread? And what actions get warns worth points vs 0 point warns???

[Alex]

Seeing as this is very forum specific, I'm moving to Moderation Support, the proper place for a discussion on forum rules.

 

But again, I'd like to reiterate, that "moderation as a weapon" is nowhere in the forum rules. I don't intend to discourage people from making reports.

Yes, it's tedious for us (the moderators) to go through frivolous reports. However, I'd rather have that problem than people just not reporting things because they're afraid they're going to be punished for making a report.

We use reports as a way to know what to examine. Just because someone reports something does not mean we will agree that there's anything actually rule-breaking, and I'd argue that in most cases we just close reports with no action. So, I don't really see any harm in there being extra reports.

And, because I know it's coming "blah blah you BANNED my FRIEND for saying X which is RIDICULOUS! All because of a REPORT" I see people whining and complaining constantly about how someone was unfairly punished because of some arbitrary report. What you certainly do not realize is that there is always more information you are not privy to. Maybe the report was something stupid, like "so and so said X" and X isn't bad. However, after we review the player's account and history, we may find other rules violations unrelated to the report, or additional context that isn't obvious to you that makes "X" actually rule-breaking. I'm sure it's convenient for someone who gets a moderation strike to characterize is as the stupidest thing in the world, but if you just take their explanation at face value without getting the other side of the story and then complain all over the forum, you're being ridiculous.

I, and the forum mods, are not unreasonable people. We understand the motivations of many of the reports we receive, and take that into consideration when investigating and making judgements.

[Joi]

53 minutes ago, CandyShi said:

Except you wasted everyone’s time, and time is our most valuable resource in life.

Beep boop. Time is a human construct. You don't have to read reports that aren't about you if you're so worried about wasting your time.

48 minutes ago, CandyShi said:

Can you name a single nation that identified themselves as communist that **hasn’t** become infamous for human rights violations?

Yes: Robotopia.

49 minutes ago, CandyShi said:

By your logic fascism is alright, which is not alright. 

I fail to see your logic in how you've managed to arrive at my logic. By your logic (as seen here), fascism is alright. I am staunchly anti-fascist both in-game and out-of-game, and yet playing a fascist is allowed within the game's rules. Again, you seem to be reiterating Sir Scarfalot's point: that anything can be made offensive if you just force offensive ideologies into someone else's mouth.

I don't really get what you're arguing here. It seems like both you and MandyStalin have jumped into this thread to be argumentative just for the sake of it.

[durmij]

Honestly, the moderation system has been the exact same for years. It's just getting more inputs now. If you don't trust Alex to moderate, even though he's been clearer and more thorough than most moderators on other sites, you need to stop playing the game if it's that big of a deal for you. Alex has been meticulous in his moderation, even when it would be way more efficient to just ban an obvious bad faith actor on the first offense (like, for example, San Furtando accusing him of taking "jew money").

This mis-characterization of the moderation situation is beyond disingenuous, and it's no surprised that it's devolved into our umpteenth thread about "Communism is worser, why can't I roleplay as Herman Meyer". The ruling has been made clear, over and over again. Just because people have knowledge about what the dog-whistles are that you don't, doesn't mean they aren't dog-whistles. And even if they aren't, that still has to pass through the judgment of the small business owner who operates the game and the forums.

The anti-moderation whining and bad faith troll reports have reached new heights of cringe. If this game fails to meet your lofty expectations, you're more than free to go join that other project. I'm sure you'll be playing that game any day now.

[Sir Scarfalot]

5 hours ago, durmij said:

Honestly, the moderation system has been the exact same for years. It's just getting more inputs now. If you don't trust Alex to moderate, even though he's been clearer and more thorough than most moderators on other sites, you need to stop playing the game if it's that big of a deal for you. Alex has been meticulous in his moderation, even when it would be way more efficient to just ban an obvious bad faith actor on the first offense (like, for example, San Furtando accusing him of taking "jew money").

This mis-characterization of the moderation situation is beyond disingenuous, and it's no surprised that it's devolved into our umpteenth thread about "Communism is worser, why can't I roleplay as Herman Meyer". The ruling has been made clear, over and over again. Just because people have knowledge about what the dog-whistles are that you don't, doesn't mean they aren't dog-whistles. And even if they aren't, that still has to pass through the judgment of the small business owner who operates the game and the forums.

The anti-moderation whining and bad faith troll reports have reached new heights of cringe. If this game fails to meet your lofty expectations, you're more than free to go join that other project. I'm sure you'll be playing that game any day now.

Y'know what? I agree.

I agree completely that, in light of Alex finally coming forward with actual information about where moderation strikes have fallen, he has been much more reasonable than it first appeared. I for one was misled by the number of times that he spoke in direct encouragement of the hundreds of spam Goons reports. Those were giving me a false impression that the cringe reports were being successful, and I'm glad to now be disabused of that. I was wrong, and I'm thankful to @Alex for both that and for his coming forward with genuine information that puts the matter to rest.

Furthermore, I agree completely with you in that the anti-moderation whining and bad faith troll reports have gotten much, much worse since Goons began making them and baiting them, and to be fair I'm indeed partly at fault for contributing to that as well. I lost my patience, and I apologize for that. Holding the mirror up to their bad behavior was the last way I thought I could explain Goons' hypocrisy, but that still doesn't excuse either myself or Goons.

As for dog-whistles, though? Tell me, are the controversial if not disgusting, and certainly arbitrary, meanings of those obscure codes actually less prevalent and less disseminated when you cause public drama over them than when they're simply ignored as the stupid white noise that they are? Or if necessary privately reported as harassment? Does the drama of a public call-out, both IC and OOC, actually give the code less of an audience? I'd be surprised if it were so.

 

[durmij]

2 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Y'know what? I agree.

I agree completely that, in light of Alex finally coming forward with actual information about where moderation strikes have fallen, he has been much more reasonable than it first appeared. I for one was misled by the number of times that he spoke in direct encouragement of the hundreds of spam Goons reports. Those were giving me a false impression that the cringe reports were being successful, and I'm glad to now be disabused of that. I was wrong, and I'm thankful to @Alex for both that and for his coming forward with genuine information that puts the matter to rest.

Furthermore, I agree completely with you in that the anti-moderation whining and bad faith troll reports have gotten much, much worse since Goons began making them and baiting them, and to be fair I'm indeed partly at fault for contributing to that as well. I lost my patience, and I apologize for that. Holding the mirror up to their bad behavior was the last way I thought I could explain Goons' hypocrisy, but that still doesn't excuse either myself or Goons.

As for dog-whistles, though? Tell me, are the controversial if not disgusting, and certainly arbitrary, meanings of those obscure codes actually less prevalent and less disseminated when you cause public drama over them than when they're simply ignored as the stupid white noise that they are? Or if necessary privately reported as harassment? Does the drama of a public call-out, both IC and OOC, actually give the code less of an audience? I'd be surprised if it were so.

 

You are literally the bad faith troll reporter I'm talking about. Some GOONS post are bad, but most of them are routine and obviously and easily solvable. You, on the other hand, have flooded the sub-forum with nonsense. You googled "salted meat slur" and used it as the basis of a report, the second time in a week someone I've seen someone try to make an argument out of their own lack of understanding about search functions. You scour GOONS for nitpicks, but you miss shit like guys naming their cities actual slurs. You didn't "hold up a mirror", you had a protracted tantrum that stemmed from your own failure to understand the moderation system, and your bleed over of in game grief.

Alex shouldn't have to keep coming back to this, because the fundamentals of the situation do not change. They were the same when I started playing four years ago, they are the same now.

You aren't owed a look behind the curtain. The moderation rules have been consistent for ages. Some mods have been better than others, but the fundamental system has remained the same.

I genuinely hope, for the good of the game, that in the next such whinging, mewling, idiotic thread, Alex simply tells you lot to shove it and play by the rules.

[Viselli]

18 hours ago, Epi said:

By the power of Blitzkrieg the Afrika Korps will roll over thou's corpse. You may not be allowed to reference nazis, but one could argue you can play like them jk. 

I'm reporting you. You said N*zi. 

[dragonshardz]

1 hour ago, durmij said:

You are literally the bad faith troll reporter I'm talking about. Some GOONS post are bad, but most of them are routine and obviously and easily solvable. You, on the other hand, have flooded the sub-forum with nonsense. You googled "salted meat slur" and used it as the basis of a report, the second time in a week someone I've seen someone try to make an argument out of their own lack of understanding about search functions. You scour GOONS for nitpicks, but you miss shit like guys naming their cities actual slurs. You didn't "hold up a mirror", you had a protracted tantrum that stemmed from your own failure to understand the moderation system, and your bleed over of in game grief.

Alex shouldn't have to keep coming back to this, because the fundamentals of the situation do not change. They were the same when I started playing four years ago, they are the same now.

You aren't owed a look behind the curtain. The moderation rules have been consistent for ages. Some mods have been better than others, but the fundamental system has remained the same.

I genuinely hope, for the good of the game, that in the next such whinging, mewling, idiotic thread, Alex simply tells you lot to shove it and play by the rules.

Quoting for posterity. This is a Good Post.

[Guest Epi]

I got a warning for replying in Horsecock's thread with a simple request not to ban a currency. @Archibald Did you get the same warning? You've replied in a lot more threads than me with comments or just additional information. How many warns do you have? xD

Perhaps that's a rule we should change, just allowing people to weigh in on reports and offer context rather than locking it down and leaving moderators to do all the research, inevitably miss something or take the side of a bias report without a counter argument.

[Sir Scarfalot]

3 hours ago, durmij said:

You are literally the bad faith troll reporter I'm talking about. Some GOONS post are bad, but most of them are routine and obviously and easily solvable. You, on the other hand, have flooded the sub-forum with nonsense. You googled "salted meat slur" and used it as the basis of a report, the second time in a week someone I've seen someone try to make an argument out of their own lack of understanding about search functions. You scour GOONS for nitpicks, but you miss shit like guys naming their cities actual slurs. You didn't "hold up a mirror", you had a protracted tantrum that stemmed from your own failure to understand the moderation system, and your bleed over of in game grief.

Alex shouldn't have to keep coming back to this, because the fundamentals of the situation do not change. They were the same when I started playing four years ago, they are the same now.

You aren't owed a look behind the curtain. The moderation rules have been consistent for ages. Some mods have been better than others, but the fundamental system has remained the same.

I genuinely hope, for the good of the game, that in the next such whinging, mewling, idiotic thread, Alex simply tells you lot to shove it and play by the rules.

I see. So when Goons does it, then it's fine, but when anyone else does, then it's "bad faith". Goons fabricates meanings to words and reports pre-censored images, and has flooded the subforum with hundreds of bogus reports, yet one report is too many?

On top of that, you don't even address the hypocrisy inherent in your own tantruming about 'dog-whistles', preferring to give hatred and bigotry more of an audience and more legitimacy rather than take actual constructive steps to discourage it? And you declare that blind trust, in the face of indications to the contrary, is what Alex is fundamentally owed?

You are the problem. You are abusing the system, you are knowingly and intentionally spreading what you profess to hate.

There are solutions to this problem, but it is abundantly clear that neither you nor Goons nor apparently even the moderation staff are interested in constructive efforts, only hypocrisy.