Trump Impeachment

[Mandystalin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50840934

 

So Congress voted (mostly along party lines) to impeach Trump, and it now goes to the Senate to decide on whether to punish or not. 

 

Given the partisan nature of the debate and vote, and the expected outcome of the Senate vote, I wanted to hold our own little poll

Edited December 19, 2019 by Mandystalin

[Comrade Marx]

Where is the "Socialist organizer that doesn't believe impeachment will amount to anything meaningful because it's just political theater" option?

[Lury]

The democrats will hate what they just done

[Thalmor]

This shit is absurd. Impeachment is meaningless because it will not pass the Senate. Even if it did, congrats! You just created President Pence!

The Dems have succeeded in stirring up Trumps' base, alienating and turning off moderates, and have burned up tons of political capital with nothing to show for it. Good job, I guess?

[Sir Scarfalot]

12 hours ago, Comrade Marx said:

Where is the "Socialist organizer that doesn't believe impeachment will amount to anything meaningful because it's just political theater" option?

that's "not american, yo"

Also by that logic literally nothing will amount to anything meaningful whatsoever, ever.

1 hour ago, Thalmor said:

This shit is absurd. Impeachment is meaningless because it will not pass the Senate. Even if it did, congrats! You just created President Pence!

The Dems have succeeded in stirring up Trumps' base, alienating and turning off moderates, and have burned up tons of political capital with nothing to show for it. Good job, I guess?

If there's any moderates left, they're just as alienated by Trump as they are with the D. Pretty sure 'moderate' describes exactly nobody anymore though.

[Comrade Marx]

On 12/19/2019 at 9:12 PM, Sir Scarfalot said:

that's "not american, yo"

Also by that logic literally nothing will amount to anything meaningful whatsoever, ever.

Not at all. The political reality behind the impeachment isn't to hold Trump accountable, but to distract the democratic base during what will be crucial opening months of the actual primaries. They could have impeached months ago, but chose to do it during primary season. They won't pursue it competently and they will most likely lose the senate vote to convict the President. Liberals have an obsession with decorum, procedure and optics. The appearance of taking on Trump is what fires them up, but undertaking real action to institute change takes the backseat nearly every time. That's why there is a large #Resistance "movement" of tepid liberals cheering on Nancy Pelosi's ~sarcastic~ clapping and other kinds of Woke Activism that never moves beyond the digital spaces they started in - Twitter and Facebook. Impeachment gives the liberal base another thing to spectate and cheer for while they continue to do nothing else. Which is precisely what the Democratic Party's leadership and donors want. The alternative is what you see with Bernie Sanders building and galvanizing a movement that threatens a disruption of the status quo.

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

I don’t the Democrats or establishment republicans to have the nations best interests in mind who support this. So I’m against, don’t think he did anything?

[Leonard J Crabs]

these polling options are horrible. There more ideology to the world than those 5 options.

I'm none of the options, so did not vote

[Zim]

11 hours ago, Madden8021 said:

Is there an option for 3rd Party and or independent voters? We have a voice as well.

Your voice is kinda pointless in the current American political system. Which will most likely stay that way, as neither of the two parties that matters, have any interest in starting reforms to transform your nation into using a multi party system, that most of democratic world is using. 

[DJJ]

15 hours ago, Madden8021 said:

Is there an option for 3rd Party and or independent voters? We have a voice as well.

Bernard Sanders baby!

[Fat Albert]

15 hours ago, Madden8021 said:

Is there an option for 3rd Party and or independent voters? We have a voice as well.

Ralph Nader's running for the third party again?

[Sphinx]

Not American so don't really care about Domestic policy, but Trump's been advantageous for my country. My only concern from a US President is Foreign Policy, and I'm glad Trump is the first President in my lifetime to actually try and counteract the growth of China, albeit I feel its far too little and too late, plus Trump's kinda an Idiot and he alienated other countries who if they presented a unified front with sanctions/ tariffs would be far more damaging to China. Also glad to see a new non-interventionist policy with regards to Syria now Assad can finally re-establish control. 

I do hope Trump wins re-election. (I do think he will) and I think Democrats overplayed their hand and will instead get a far more unified Republican base that might've been more divided if they just waited and stopped trying to get brownie points with a voter bloc who already hates Trump.  

Edited December 23, 2019 by Sphinx

[Sir Scarfalot]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:12 PM, Comrade Marx said:

Not at all. The political reality behind the impeachment isn't to hold Trump accountable, but to distract the democratic base during what will be crucial opening months of the actual primaries. They could have impeached months ago, but chose to do it during primary season. They won't pursue it competently and they will most likely lose the senate vote to convict the President. Liberals have an obsession with decorum, procedure and optics. The appearance of taking on Trump is what fires them up, but undertaking real action to institute change takes the backseat nearly every time. That's why there is a large #Resistance "movement" of tepid liberals cheering on Nancy Pelosi's ~sarcastic~ clapping and other kinds of Woke Activism that never moves beyond the digital spaces they started in - Twitter and Facebook. Impeachment gives the liberal base another thing to spectate and cheer for while they continue to do nothing else. Which is precisely what the Democratic Party's leadership and donors want. The alternative is what you see with Bernie Sanders building and galvanizing a movement that threatens a disruption of the status quo.

Decorum, procedure and optics are literally all there is, since that's the reality of how the rules themselves are made. None of the current crisis has anything to do with any individual law or issue or candidate or officeholder, the crisis is entirely on how these things are addressed at all. Tepid sarcasm and official, albeit toothless insult is literally all the democracy (as distinct from the 'democrats') has left to it. The "nuclear options" have been used enough both in Britain and her sillier colonies to render the whole political process an autocratic wasteland and a radioactive mockery of a 'republic' either way.

So, yeah, I'm perfectly happy to flip Trump the bird with a worthless impeachment on the way down. The alternative is to bend over and take it quietly, and I for one will never compromise on being a stubborn complainer. As you well know ?

[BurntCornMuffin]

So, you are asserting that your only options are "bending over and taking it" or "bending over and taking it while ineffectually complaining and flipping birds".  It sounds to me like you've already compromised and resigned yourself to "taking it", and your only thing you are stubborn about is the refusal to acknowledge any option where you refuse to "take it" as too extreme.  What do you have to gain from giving up in this manner?

[Comrade Marx]

On 12/22/2019 at 10:45 PM, Sphinx said:

Not American so don't really care about Domestic policy, but Trump's been advantageous for my country. My only concern from a US President is Foreign Policy, and I'm glad Trump is the first President in my lifetime to actually try and counteract the growth of China, albeit I feel its far too little and too late, plus Trump's kinda an Idiot and he alienated other countries who if they presented a unified front with sanctions/ tariffs would be far more damaging to China. Also glad to see a new non-interventionist policy with regards to Syria now Assad can finally re-establish control. 

I do hope Trump wins re-election. (I do think he will) and I think Democrats overplayed their hand and will instead get a far more unified Republican base that might've been more divided if they just waited and stopped trying to get brownie points with a voter bloc who already hates Trump.  

 

Trump is by no means the first to attempt to counter-act the rise of China. Every US President since Truman has overseen containment policies targeting China. Nixon was notable, however, when he opened trade with China because this wasn't just some diplomatic overture to further the divide between the USSR and PRC after the Sino-Soviet split, but a calculated economic decision that benefited Western Capitalists. Arrogance on part of the West assumed China would never be able to catch up to the rest of the world in industrial output and technological advancement. But the terms of the deal struck between the Capitalists and the Chinese is what sowed the seeds of a rising China.

 

And the deal worked something like this: In exchange for allowing the West to exploit cheap, Chinese labor they had to enter into partnerships with state-owned (and eventually, increasingly "privately owned") apparatus that included sharing their technology with the Chinese. As American and western European and Japanese companies gleefully ramped up outsourcing to China for production, they enabled an economic boom that has been ongoing over there for the last 40-50 years that has seen the standard of living for the average Chinese person quadruple while in the same amount of time the standard of living for an American has been stagnant. Flat. When you have an economy that routinely sees 9-12% of growth per year it is no surprise that they are rapidly catching up to one that at best sees 2-3% per year. Even China's lowest growth rate at 6% is still double that of the best the United States can do.

 

It's no surprise then that China is increasing its military budget to compete with regional powers and against US influence in the region. And the US has been actively involved in containing China, as I stated before, with alliances with Japan, South Korea and the regional ASEAN bloc that includes the Philippines (a former US colony), Vietnam, Indonesia and Brunei. All of whom have competing territorial claims with China in the South China Sea, where the United States has been conducting routine "Freedom of Navigation" patrols through since Barack Obama. Whereas before that we simply just did whatever we wanted in the region, we now increasingly have to contend with China reasserting control over its own neighborhood, and that comes at the cost of the deal the West struck with China back in the 1970s coupled with the decline of Capitalism in the United States. Every future US President will continue to attempt containment of China, but the American Empire is in decline. There will be no return to the glory days.

 

On 12/23/2019 at 10:22 PM, Sir Scarfalot said:

Decorum, procedure and optics are literally all there is, since that's the reality of how the rules themselves are made. None of the current crisis has anything to do with any individual law or issue or candidate or officeholder, the crisis is entirely on how these things are addressed at all. Tepid sarcasm and official, albeit toothless insult is literally all the democracy (as distinct from the 'democrats') has left to it. The "nuclear options" have been used enough both in Britain and her sillier colonies to render the whole political process an autocratic wasteland and a radioactive mockery of a 'republic' either way.

So, yeah, I'm perfectly happy to flip Trump the bird with a worthless impeachment on the way down. The alternative is to bend over and take it quietly, and I for one will never compromise on being a stubborn complainer. As you well know ?

 

I strongly disagree that decorum, procedure and optics are all that there is left. The Democrats  make a big show out of opposing Trump and the GOP but continue to pass his budgets and bills. I do agree that the crisis has nothing to do with one law or politician. These are merely the symptoms of a system organized to be controlled by the wealthy. But the Democrats would rather make Hot Takes all day instead of challenging a system that holds the nation hostage.

[Sir Scarfalot]

5 hours ago, Comrade Marx said:

I strongly disagree that decorum, procedure and optics are all that there is left. The Democrats  make a big show out of opposing Trump and the GOP but continue to pass his budgets and bills. I do agree that the crisis has nothing to do with one law or politician. These are merely the symptoms of a system organized to be controlled by the wealthy. But the Democrats would rather make Hot Takes all day instead of challenging a system that holds the nation hostage.

Alright, tell me then. What possible means are there to challenge the FPTP system and its problems? Problems that we both acknowledge and agree exist? Voting against it only invokes the spoiler effect and is therefore literally less than useless, crying about it does nothing whatsoever, and armed revolution would only serve to coronate a full and open despotism. Procedure if nothing else slows the dictator down, optics if nothing else provides an opposition (albeit a toothless one), and decorum... does nothing, sure, but it's part of the optics. So, what solution is there?