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Question for all Coalition leadership.


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1 minute ago, Prefonteen said:

This does not seem like an obstacle specifically designed to troll us around and gaslight us at all.

Good thing it isn't then

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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2 minutes ago, Malal said:

Good thing it isn't then

The $yndicate extends its offer to send its FA representative to enter negotiations on the terms of its surrender.

1 hour ago, Edward I said:

It's not like people can downvote me anymore, so what do I care.

My response to you was a compliment, by the way ;)

Edited by Prefonteen

 

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4 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

The $yndicate extends its offer to send its FA representative to enter negotiations on the terms of its surrender.

Feel free to tell them to slide into my DM's then. I'm more than happy to talk with them provided they are a human.

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TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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1 minute ago, Edward I said:

I know. I figured a bit of trolling would wash away the bad aftertaste of posting a fully OOC wall of text.

The results so far have been mixed.

We hit our quota of non-toxic posts for the day anyway, friend.

 

frick you. NPO traitor.

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4 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

To add to what Roq and Edward says (also hi @Hodor thanks for the love), there is something I believe folks refuse to accept, or agree to and that will be that Roq or myself owed any of you anything. There is this entitlement that you have a right to decide how the game should play and the place of the NPO within that system, and that's something that adds a huge role into this present scenario. 

 

The NPO for the longest time has always had to exist in a system that was constructed first by tS/OO/MENSA, followed by the completion of EMC with Rose. The remnants of that system was always a cool boys club of folks who drift in and out and there was never any means to disrupt that as the NPO since we were the easiest bogeyman to fall back onto. Folks forget, that the vast majority of KERTCHOGG leadership have been similar faces that ran the NPOFT and Silent right after. The changes in alliances/names still brought out leadership looking to fight us during AC. At the end of the day, there was no means by which the NPO would not always be a target, and forced into this entitled straitjacket of a meta not set by ourselves for the game. We spent years with people calling our tax system horrible, that we had to git gud, oh and to crown it all off, that we're nothing but robots and have no real community that defines us. These are jokes, but these narratives made it clear, especially when fully supported by many in Coalition A's leadership that the NPO's role in this game would never be defined by ourselves. We always had to play in your meta. For all the claims of wanting to have a fun game, all I see is a narrow mini-sphere answer, and that this is the only right way to play, and I fundamentally disagree with that. Both Roq and I saw this war, at the beginning a means to further enshrine that stranglehold over the meta and FA over the game and that to me at least played a part in concurring to use the TKR CB now, and not later. 

 

I am glad someone pointed out that we're all plotting continuously. It's the nature of the game and its bread and butter. So the moralistic hill is just funny to see, when we have logs of TKR plotting a war over IQ, gift wrapped as some anti-hegemony narrative, when at its basic level was nothing other than using the old NPO/BK bad man trope that a lot of folks have spent years and attempted various means to push. That itself to us was problematic. For all the belief in "fairness" and "trust", and in this "two-way" street of foreign affairs, NPO was most often an outlier and benign because we were forced to out of necessity. 

 

The conditions leading up to this war changed. I think Buor mentioned that we flip flopped a lot on our positions early on? Well that's what happens in a fluid war time scenario. Unlike common belief, war doesn't happen in a vacuum. Things keep changing, tiers keep moving at least in the early days and one gets a feel. Was there a war planned vs KETOGG yes, but did that have anything to do with BK or anything else, not really. It was meant to be 1v1 to see how this mini-sphere could work, and if there was any real buy-in to let this kind of war happen. That did not happen because of Surfs Up and our views regarding that, multi-varied as they are, has been stated. But for any mini-sphere idea to truly work, especially if history is any pointer within the environment of the game (that being the precedent set by EMC), to the victor goes the spoils. There are a large number of alliances who do absolutely nothing, but bandwagon on and build into those victorious spheres, for the fact that they don't have to do much and have an easy victory. That is inherently problematic when mini-spheres combine, because to us looking in from the outside, it seemed a threat. The lack of any FA to assuage our concerns and an information blackhole was further problematic because what we saw especially as the early rounds saw quite a lot of Citadel fold, and Cov/BK on shaky ground was simply put, a threat. A threat not born out of paranoia, but out of working within the meta I explained earlier on in this post and reinforced by the creation of EMC. As @Edward I rightly pointed out in one of his posts, this meta and lack of trust was further eroded in the past due to paperless agreements. That fundamentally shaped the way we see the game. You can claim it paranoia, but the conversations we've had with folks and the nature of discussions over the years, poisoned the well when it came to believing that the "fracture" points within KETOGG/Chaos/Rose would remain wide enough that a meta based around paperless would not arise again. It's easy to be everyone's secret partner if everyone's in on it, and all the NPO would have is tS/HS. This brings me to tS/HS. 

 

HS are an absolute gem of an alliance with by far some of the most mature/pragmatic folk I know in the game. That being said, with regards to tS, our faith in their word changed when their government changed just before the war. The actions of Sisyphus/Leopold and Utmos later on, left us wondering where is the path forward. They may be disappointed with how the war shaped early on, but unlike HS who were willing to wrinkle out the issues and attempt to work out a common point, tS and its triumvirate believed more in the face-loss, than the real material nature of war itself. That led to us wondering how is it going to work further down the road. But tS was still at least communicating some of their treaties (Sanreizan/TEst), which to us was a sign that required to be reciprocated. That changed the moment the CTO/OWR treaty was signed, since to us, it seemed simply put a middle finger to the NPO/ and its war efforts, and once again changed the landscape within with we had to operate. Whatever those logs showcase, my reasoning for being involved in those discussions stemmed from what I saw was a move designed to build a base for tS that did not include us. 

 

So how does all of this lead to the term "zero-sum" that I have used quite a bit? An entitled belief that one set of players have the right to decide our meta and how we play, along with the history of actions, especially that of paperless that poisoned the well, and the actions/narratives portrayed when one side was winning the early rounds of this war, pointed to a bunch things. Namely: 

 

1) Given the opportunity, old allies will always find common targets, and or have secret agreements as in the past that we have no knowledge off, and the reason was NPO/BK man bad,

2) That no action that the NPO did, would we ever control our own fate, because the peanut gallery would never be satisfied,

3) The early narratives from KERTCHOGG lit a fire they really could not pull back from and that for whatever reason you wish to speculate upon, was used by us to ensure we come out of this with a win. 

 

The fact is, I do believe the NPO has been blamed for a lot of things, that we did not do over the years. That a lot of folks refuse to work with us solely because of what Roq did in a game that should not be mentioned and that these actions are justified to be weary of his motivations doesn't work one sided. I don't know any of the present leadership except a few, but nevertheless if that is the framework in which you wish to operate, then that is the one we should also be allowed to operate within. If we're looking at actions, there are a plethora of actions taken against the NPO over the last three years and this war seemed to be a final culmination to permanently damage us. Given that we either follow or be killed, we chose a different option and that was to work with Coalition B, to disrupt the prevailing meta, and set up our own meta, without necessarily having to face an existential war. To do that, we had to jump in and do what Coalition A was doing, and I see our actions as simply ensuring our safety and security because our job is to make this game fun for our members, regardless of those from your side who believe they have the right to pontificate to us about how to play the game. 

 

tl;dr A history of Roq's action is fair game for everyone, but if we look at the same with regards to you folk, we're paranoid, power hungry game killers. We're tired of that nonsense and decided to flip the script. Here we are. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Edward I said:

New game mechanics and metagame rules.

New game mechanics because there's not much to stimulate or sustain competition in the first place. We farm infra to build warchests to fight wars to gain a relative advantage in farming infra. Anyone who doesn't focus on this will either eventually be out-competed by people who do, or already has such large warchests and nations that they effectively force others to follow that formula just to catch up. (The ability to accumulate money and resources far in excess of what's needed to wage wars is another instance of bad mechanics.)

Metagame rules are what make these types of games into giant, in-character dramas, which is always what they are when they're at their best. Without a common language and common tools to collectively tell a story ("valid" CBs, treaty chess, norms on raiding, trading and so on) they tend to devolve into a glorified multiplayer sparring match in which the only things that matter are, fundamentally, out-of-character. When that happens, it takes the focus away from a collective story and its characters (us) and instead puts it on isolated episodes that have little relation to one another. The ostensibly multiplayer game becomes a less robust version of a single-player game when the inter-player interactions are impoverished or diminished as a part of gameplay.

If you want some anecdotal evidence of this, think about your favorite memories from any of these games. More likely than not, their defining features are the stories behind them (how people acted, what they said, whether they stabbed each other in the back, whether they made you feel as if the silly game you played as a hobby had some kind of deeper, social meaning) rather than the mechanics behind them (how evenly matched the sides were, etc.).

 

In practice, a successful implementation of what I outlined would tend to put power in the hands of groups that have the highest "aggregate activity." By that, I mean a combination of the absolute number of players a group has plus however much they collectively go above and beyond the daily floor on effective activity. In PW, that floor is probably around several logins per week in peace and one login per day in war.

Higher in-game activity (baseball, trading, spending MAPs as they accrue) obviously helps you; so does higher out-of-game activity (smoky backrooms, etc.). Having lots of cities or large stockpiles doesn't count for much in my formula (those are dividends from past activity rather than present activity), and neither does having old friends who you know won't fight against you (again, dividends from past activity rather than present interests). Large strength disparities between nations/players also tend to be detrimental to this because they shift the focus and incentives away from activity and towards control of the largest, most powerful, most productive nations. Basically, whoever is best at telling and driving the story in the here and now deserves to be in the driver's seat, and very few other considerations matter.

These suggestions probably won't be very popular. They'd require significant mechanical updates to the game; would very likely force incumbents (older, well-connected players and players with larger nations) to cede some of their de facto power to newer, more numerous players; and would likely necessitate liberal usage of threats and military force to maintain (I'm now waiting for someone to cry "hegemony"). On that darker note, I'll end the wall of text.

I can actually agree with the majority of both these walls of text and what I don't agree with is trivial stuff of little to no relevance. Strange times indeed.

On the hegemony note, they come and they go. It's a natural cycle of the game, I said as much 3ish years ago when Syndisphere/git gud/whatever other name our "side" has had was on top and what I stated  then has generally occurred. A hegemony takes control, usually overthrows a preceding hegemony, dominates for a bit, inevitable internal tensions within the hegemony arise and inevitably the hegemony splits only to be replaced by a a new one which likely incorporates elements of the previous one. It's a natural cycle and depending on your viewpoint, we are probably on our 3rd or 4th hegemonic era at this moment in time.

People like to complain about so and so being a hegemony but it's essentially a fundamental process of the game and reflects essential human nature.

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59 minutes ago, Charles the Tyrant said:

 

I can actually agree with the majority of both these walls of text and what I don't agree with is trivial stuff of little to no relevance. Strange times indeed.

On the hegemony note, they come and they go. It's a natural cycle of the game, I said as much 3ish years ago when Syndisphere/git gud/whatever other name our "side" has had was on top and what I stated  then has generally occurred. A hegemony takes control, usually overthrows a preceding hegemony, dominates for a bit, inevitable internal tensions within the hegemony arise and inevitably the hegemony splits only to be replaced by a a new one which likely incorporates elements of the previous one. It's a natural cycle and depending on your viewpoint, we are probably on our 3rd or 4th hegemonic era at this moment in time.

People like to complain about so and so being a hegemony but it's essentially a fundamental process of the game and reflects essential human nature.

Don't forget the most important part of the cycle: Whoever is not part of the current hegemony complains ceaselessly about how this new hegemony is going to be the one to kill the game. ?

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2 hours ago, Prefonteen said:

This does not seem like an obstacle specifically designed to troll us around and gaslight us at all.

Well, we can't complain about losing the war, any peace negotiations are in private on Discord so that doesn't leave a lot of other things to post.

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Since there’s not one good place to respond (chiefly because this has been a mostly decent thread) I’ll just throw it out as an extension to other posts. 

The forming of Inquisition was a colossal move in the metagame. In my opinion it’s also the last one that has “stuck”, and by that I mean it is the last one that redefined how the game was drawn out and played. There have been a few attempts at rewriting this, but none of them have been successful at changing the dynamic. As surprised as I was at the time personally by that move, it was a bold move by a number of alliances in different deteriorating internal (and in the case of OO, external) situations, and one that breathed a lot of life into the game. 

That’s a long time to go without a major storyline change in a game like this. I championed t$ signing NPO in advisory chambers back in the day for one particular reason; it was the last thing I could think of that would be a new challenge for the alliance given the state of the meta at that point in time. I had hoped that my paperless adventure years ago would have led to something, but for very-long winded historical reasons that no one is going to want to read, that did not come to pass (tl;dr- The meta didn’t change much around us, and I did not assertively force something to happen). 

t$ and NPO had never been allied, had very different “phenotypes” (if you will indulge me), and both seemed to be looking for something new. But I was confident that a lot of the “genotype” wasn’t all that different. Two of the largest mover-and-shaker type alliances in this game, with a fairly well-matching set of mechanics in nation building, coming together to form partnership, was quite a thing to see. I was quite happy to write the text of the treaty, and merge a sort of snake (or Dragon) with something from the Pacific (Sir Francis Drake). And off we sailed! 

There is, frankly, a lot to unpack about that specific relationship/divorce. At the risk of appearing to cop out, I’ll simply state that most of the finer points (that I am aware of, given my tendency to fade in-and-out) aren’t really relevant to this thread, and I’ll leave it at that. 

People like stories. Ultimately, they are the only real thing that drives games like these forward, as the mechanics alone usually will not suffice. In a way, it is similar to Dungeons & Dragons; you can play the mechanics, but it is the story that makes it more interesting. 

 

6 hours ago, Malal said:

lolwut? Your alliance organized the objectively worst exploit in the games history where you bought all the treasures you could and invited nearly your entire sphere to join the aa to rake in massive amounts of cash. It wasn't a novel idea, but Paragon and the Covenant never saw borderline abuse as valid strategies and figured no one would ever attempt something like that. And now people are shocked over a few baseball games and referral bonuses complaining it's an unfair advantage, lmfao.

The most abusive and "borderline exploit" practices that are currently in the game are a reflection of how EMC acted when they had a hegemony. Get down off your cross, build a bridge, and get over it.

 

Nowhere in my post do I mention a grievous complaint or lament about the practices I bring up. I will note one difference.

Most of the mechanics that were previously broken, such as the treasure system mentioned here, were designed by the game administration and introduced to bring some substantial changes to the game. Their actual intent was to stimulate gameplay. I don’t think the actual implementation was what the admins intended, as evidenced by what happened. There’s absolutely an argument to make about Dongminion being a major game exploit, and frankly I can’t dismiss it as bollocks because it does hold weight. The mechanics were designed to make a change in how people played the game, and frankly they did - just not in the way that it was imagined. 

Whereas something like baseball or the referrals were, in Alex’s own words, some little fun distraction or nice bonus for people that wasn’t meant to be a big thing. They were cheap things designed to add some character to the game without significantly impacting the way it was played, unlike the treasure system which was designed to bring competitive practice.

But my broader point isn’t about the specific mechanics or those practices at all. Most of my broader point was also discussed by Edward above; namely a look at how mechanics and metagame are investigated. 

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In paradisum deducant te Angeli; in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres, et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Ierusalem.
Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cüm Lazaro quondam paupere æternam habeas requiem.

 

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19 minutes ago, XSSJBONGWEEDL0RD420 said:

As a new player, this story about this war sucks.

I agree these peace threads aren’t the most exciting, but gives people an outlet to talk about it I guess. I wonder how much negotiation really needs to take place before terms can given. Either terms are ready to be given or not is my view on that, lol.

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8 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Yet had BK sphere hit Chaos and N$O hit KETOG that truly would have been minispheres at work.

1 - N$O denied being involved

2 - That would be stupid to sit back and let it happen after the leak.  Especially with 2 big spheres against 2 smaller spheres.

7 hours ago, Malal said:

Good thing it isn't then

Funny that you bring up last month.

---------

underlordgc10/2/2019, 8:41:11 PM
super memey if we start refusing to reconmize their reps

Leo the Great10/2/2019, 8:41:16 PM
sisyphis

underlordgc10/2/2019, 8:41:22 PM
def will give us two more months of infra grinding

###

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:07:43 PM
in 3 days they'll have their surrender chance again

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:08:42 PM(edited 9/27/2019, 10:10:11 PM)
but, october is such an Inauspicious time for surrendering

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:09:00 PM
November is much better imho

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:09:33 PM
I propose we replace ng and sphinx with george and myself so that we can ensure their won;t be an october peace

--------

 

Huh.  Look at those dates.

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4 hours ago, Buorhann said:

1 - N$O denied being involved

2 - That would be stupid to sit back and let it happen after the leak.  Especially with 2 big spheres against 2 smaller spheres.

Funny that you bring up last month.

---------

underlordgc10/2/2019, 8:41:11 PM
super memey if we start refusing to reconmize their reps

Leo the Great10/2/2019, 8:41:16 PM
sisyphis

underlordgc10/2/2019, 8:41:22 PM
def will give us two more months of infra grinding

###

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:07:43 PM
in 3 days they'll have their surrender chance again

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:08:42 PM(edited 9/27/2019, 10:10:11 PM)
but, october is such an Inauspicious time for surrendering

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:09:00 PM
November is much better imho

underlordgc9/27/2019, 10:09:33 PM
I propose we replace ng and sphinx with george and myself so that we can ensure their won;t be an october peace

--------

 

Huh.  Look at those dates.

I would probably only take Roq seriously to discuss terms, but that might just be because I think he would be most capable in making these decisions. Fixing bridges where you can communicate with him directly I would consider your best shot at getting a legit peace deal.

Edit: Guess Leo as well, although best to speak with someone with some influence & cares about their credibility. :P

Edited by Noctis Anarch Caelum

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11 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

The conditions leading up to this war changed. I think Buor mentioned that we flip flopped a lot on our positions early on? Well that's what happens in a fluid war time scenario.

That only happens when you have no substance to stand on and you end up having to cover it up with lies.  Your "flip flopping" were very inconsistent with one another, but lo and behold, the dumped logs showed the truth to the matter.

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1 hour ago, Buorhann said:

That only happens when you have no substance to stand on and you end up having to cover it up with lies.  Your "flip flopping" were very inconsistent with one another, but lo and behold, the dumped logs showed the truth to the matter.

No. We have explained our substance and that is why we moved in the first place. There were no lies, a situation developed, went out of control and we acted while we can. 

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4 hours ago, Buorhann said:

1 - N$O denied being involved

2 - That would be stupid to sit back and let it happen after the leak.  Especially with 2 big spheres against 2 smaller spheres.

Okay, so you got assurances N$O wasn't involved. That essentially meant BK's plans were still only on Chaos and that their plan to have KETOG hit had failed. Therefore any threat to KETOG had dissipated. So why did you join Chaos to hit BK sphere or alternatively why did you peace out with Chaos when there was no threat to you? What were the benefits to minispheres in doing what you did, when to my eye the minisphere idea was about to play out? In reality in the time this war has taken we could have had Surfs Up, followed by BK sphere vs Chaos followed by N$O v KETOG. 3 different wars involving different spheres, that's discounting if Fark sphere would have done something too. That to me was the whole minisphere idea.

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I did ask Roq earlier if he was willing to white peace it & he said that wasn't on the table, so I didn't pursue the conversation further. Although let me know if you guys want my help finding out terms due to some communication barriers.

I'll be nuking GOONs in the meantime.

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1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Okay, so you got assurances N$O wasn't involved. That essentially meant BK's plans were still only on Chaos and that their plan to have KETOG hit had failed. Therefore any threat to KETOG had dissipated. So why did you join Chaos to hit BK sphere or alternatively why did you peace out with Chaos when there was no threat to you? What were the benefits to minispheres in doing what you did, when to my eye the minisphere idea was about to play out? In reality in the time this war has taken we could have had Surfs Up, followed by BK sphere vs Chaos followed by N$O v KETOG. 3 different wars involving different spheres, that's discounting if Fark sphere would have done something too. That to me was the whole minisphere idea.

Interesting, so your version of minispheres would be where the 2 "mini"spheres that together make up 80% of the game never fight each other.

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6 hours ago, Buorhann said:

-snip-

That was over 2 months ago. We're allowed to shitpost and meme in any channel we want, we are memesphere after all.

Edited by Malal

Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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27 minutes ago, Horsecock said:

Interesting, so your version of minispheres would be where the 2 "mini"spheres that together make up 80% of the game never fight each other.

Congratulations on ignoring everything in my post. Nothing in ny post insinuates what you have replied.

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2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Okay, so you got assurances N$O wasn't involved. That essentially meant BK's plans were still only on Chaos and that their plan to have KETOG hit had failed. Therefore any threat to KETOG had dissipated. So why did you join Chaos to hit BK sphere or alternatively why did you peace out with Chaos when there was no threat to you? What were the benefits to minispheres in doing what you did, when to my eye the minisphere idea was about to play out? In reality in the time this war has taken we could have had Surfs Up, followed by BK sphere vs Chaos followed by N$O v KETOG. 3 different wars involving different spheres, that's discounting if Fark sphere would have done something too. That to me was the whole minisphere idea.

Usually when someone plots to have you hit and you find out about that, then you hit them first. Just because their plans didn’t pan out this time doesn’t mean that they suddenly are no longer a hostile party. And we both know that Chaos vs BK Sphere would not be a fair fight, BK Sphere was way bigger than us, and even if the majority of their sphere sucks at fighting and is untested or whatever, their numbers are so great that we would never stand a chance. All spheres are not created equal in strength.

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