Stop rewarding bad behavior

[dragonshardz]

44 minutes ago, Chief Wiggum said:

The post you linked is about a Discord moderator, not a forum one. Also, in that case, not reacting to something hardly shows that "moderation staff misuse their power to shut down people who complain about their behavior". Shutting down people implies that you are muted, banned or anything that doesn't allow you to speak your mind freely. Which is not the case.

About members from your alliance getting warned, I don't see why this is a problem if they did break rules.

Regarding Akuryo's statement, I am a middled aged white woman loving minions' memes, so I can take the hit.

You are free to show me an occasion where a forum mod has supported/defended/protected hate speech or how they give a platform to such speech.

I make no distinction between forum and Discord moderation staff. The actions of one reflect on the other.

[Chief Wiggum]

5 minutes ago, dragonshardz said:

I make no distinction between forum and Discord moderation staff. The actions of one reflect on the other.

Well, you should, since they are different people and different platforms. I can do nothing about Discord, so if you have any issues about it, report them accordingly.

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

Epi never abused power either, you were whining about Epi not doing over moderation.

[Majima Goro]

Hello people! I sympathize with GOONS here. The reason they report anybody and everybody is because they cant do it themselves. Tbh, the word "lolipop" immediately sends blood rushing to their pp. BUT THEY CANT DO ANYTHING CUZ THAT WILL BE GAY. And not doing anything will be homophobic. Hence they need to report them. After rigorous investigations, I have discovered the GOONS are saltosexual, ie, a condition where they are attracted to salt. All we are doing here is feeding their saltophilia. If you meet a GOON, please understand their sexual orientation and respect them. Else you might need to check your salt privileges. Thank you for being an understanding netizen of Orbis.

On a serious note, the Mods do what the mods do and I have no complain against them. I believe it is us who are responsible for this hate. Grow up- both sides. And stop reporting people just because of a vendetta against them. If someone is doing something bad, report it. Or you can send them a DM and say they might be violating a rule(which honestly is the better thing to do). 

In the end, STOP. BOTH SIDES. Oh and end the war if you want and if possible, send me dollars at ETDF.

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

I’m out of reactions, but would agree with seeing if goons are able to not report everything they see with a ceasefire. Although only until goons breaks it.

(Not even reporting stuff myself, but agree with those who do for retaliation against a hostile presence like Goons reporting)

[TODD BONZALEZ]

29 minutes ago, AntMan said:

Hello people! I sympathize with GOONS here. The reason they report anybody and everybody is because they cant do it themselves. Tbh, the word "lolipop" immediately sends blood rushing to their pp. BUT THEY CANT DO ANYTHING CUZ THAT WILL BE GAY. And not doing anything will be homophobic. Hence they need to report them. After rigorous investigations, I have discovered the GOONS are saltosexual, ie, a condition where they are attracted to salt. All we are doing here is feeding their saltophilia. If you meet a GOON, please understand their sexual orientation and respect them. Else you might need to check your salt privileges. Thank you for being an understanding netizen of Orbis.

On a serious note, the Mods do what the mods do and I have no complain against them. I believe it is us who are responsible for this hate. Grow up- both sides. And stop reporting people just because of a vendetta against them. If someone is doing something bad, report it. Or you can send them a DM and say they might be violating a rule(which honestly is the better thing to do). 

In the end, STOP. BOTH SIDES. Oh and end the war if you want and if possible, send me dollars at ETDF.

Reporting people for breaking rules isn't a vendetta, especially if the reported content is Nazi imagery or sexualised children, which many recent reports have been for.

Edited November 28, 2019 by TODD BONZALEZ
tone

[Guest John Q Listener]

It is quite illustrating that you have a group who think that the application of community rules is actually a positive thing for the community, and another very small group who continue to vocally post about how some forums members shouldn't be able to make reports because of some kind of identification with the banned imagery?

Makes you think

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

Just now, John Q Listener said:

It is quite illustrating that you have a group who think that the application of community rules is actually a positive thing for the community, and another very small group who continue to vocally post about how some forums members shouldn't be able to make reports because of some kind of identification with the banned imagery?

Makes you think

Makes me think his definition of moderation as a weapon is overly specific; so doesn’t include the blatant mod warfare you guys bring. 

[Sir Scarfalot]

2 hours ago, Supreme Master Joi said:

I agree, OP, but only with your opening statement in the thread title: Stop rewarding bad behavior.

Stop rewarding hate speech, slurs, and other abusive forms of language by allowing them to continue, and encourage moderators to tell the offenders to stop and to issue strikes if needed. There doesn't need to be a debate about this.

Even if they may seem insignificant to you, minor infractions are still rule-breakers, and they still need to be dealt with accordingly or else the game can and will truly fester into an actual toxic environment that becomes a platform for spewing hatred.

Don't act like the reporting process in PnW is rewarding process, either. I find no personal satisfaction in discovering hurtful words in this game, nor do I enjoy putting in the effort to write up a report on this forum, knowing full well that people will (for some reason) downvote me because I'm standing up against abusive language. Reporting valid infractions is not and should not be considered 'bad behavior,' like the OP would have us think.  

That said, OP: you, sir, are on the wrong side of this debate, and you should seriously reconsider your position. If you don't, then I suppose you're the biggest, stickiest, suckiest "lollipop" I've ever seen, and I hope you shatter on the asphalt someday soon.

Be nice.

•  

Fella, you must have literally been born yesterday if you think that publicly complaining about, reporting and shaming hate speech/slurs/abusive language isn't in and of itself rewarding those behaviors. It's called "feeding the trolls", and it only increases their willingness to do the exact same thing. And don't even begin to imagine that the penalties are effective; if someone truly wants to evade a ban then they will do so, again and again and again. At best, what happens is that where there could have simply been a single and obscure post/flag/whatnot by an edgelord that may or may not be worth moderation action, there is now instead the same content but advertised a hundredfold while simultaneously defining the button for trolls to push for quick rage while gaming the system with decades of tools built for the express purpose of flouting moderation action.

The ONLY possible way to maintain an environment that's acceptably clear of toxicity is to not reward toxicity, in any form, at all. Thankfully, @Chief Wiggum actually does understand this and, even better, actually read and understood my argument, which is everything I ever wanted. I already knew perfectly well that no Goons member would ever admit to understanding my argument let alone accept the logic of it, since your whole expressed purpose is spreading negativity in the name of "salt".

As for your "not finding satisfaction in finding/reporting" stuff, well, you've managed to dig pretty damn deep and reach pretty damn far in your search for something to report for someone that's supposedly unhappy to do so. And somehow, despite all of that, you somehow can't find anything wrong with telling me that you "hope I shatter on the asphalt someday soon"? Methinks I smell... a hypocrite. Which is a word that should be found far, far more offensive than anything I've yet called any of you or that you have yet called me.

[Guest John Q Listener]

4 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

Makes me think his definition of moderation as a weapon is overly specific; so doesn’t include the blatant mod warfare you guys bring. 

I think you aren't giving the moderation team any credit, they are people too and would be able to see through any attempts at using moderation as a weapon. I'm even hesitant to respond to the "mod warfare" thing because it's frankly absurd.

 

[TODD BONZALEZ]

2 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

 

The ONLY possible way to maintain an environment that's acceptably clear of toxicity is to not reward toxicity, in any form, at all.

Yes, that is why we report such toxic things as references to anime paedophilia and Nazi imagery, so that it is not rewarded by being allowed to be deemed acceptable.

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

3 minutes ago, John Q Listener said:

I think you aren't giving the moderation team any credit, they are people too and would be able to see through any attempts at using moderation as a weapon. I'm even hesitant to respond to the "mod warfare" thing because it's frankly absurd.

You make their job harder when you mass report while hiding your intentions.

[Teaspoon]

1 hour ago, Chief Wiggum said:

Well, you should, since they are different people and different platforms. I can do nothing about Discord, so if you have any issues about it, report them accordingly.

For what it's worth, I think you are orders of magnitude more competent at moderation that the Discord folks, who barely do anything. You're doing a fine job on the forums.

 

E: though I would like to add that I think it does not reflect well on Alex specifically that he's allowed the moderation of this community to be so inconsistent across its platforms.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Teaspoon

[Blutarch Mann]

46 minutes ago, Chief Wiggum said:

Well, you should, since they are different people and different platforms. I can do nothing about Discord, so if you have any issues about it, report them accordingly.

I appreciate the work you put in on the forums and you've done a great job handling forums moderation, but I think what dragon is trying to communicate is more a general frustration with the fact that community moderation standards across PNW vary from platform to platform. The forums and game, for example, have extremely good moderation standards that are upheld by you and the other moderators, and we can safely report things like people using offensive slurs and know that punishment will be handed down.

But in other parts of the community(ie, the discord), reporting the exact same violation turns into what some would describe as pulling teeth. I can report someone here for using the f-word and know they will be warned for it. But if I report someone in the discord for it, it's a coinflip between whether it gets handled or whether the moderator tells me that because it's not "repetitive toxicity", it's okay toxicity for someone to call me the f-word.

Disregarding all that, you do great work here, keep it up!

[Salt Meat]

6 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Fella, you must have literally been born yesterday if you think that publicly complaining about, reporting and shaming hate speech/slurs/abusive language isn't in and of itself rewarding those behaviors. It's called "feeding the trolls", and it only increases their willingness to do the exact same thing. And don't even begin to imagine that the penalties are effective; if someone truly wants to evade a ban then they will do so, again and again and again. At best, what happens is that where there could have simply been a single and obscure post/flag/whatnot by an edgelord that may or may not be worth moderation action, there is now instead the same content but advertised a hundredfold while simultaneously defining the button for trolls to push for quick rage while gaming the system with decades of tools built for the express purpose of flouting moderation action.

Your solution to toxic misbehavior is to just leave them carry on without repercussion, out of fear they'll just double down on it?

[Guest John Q Listener]

I don't normally post about my personal life, but I come from a military family, and one of the values that was instilled in me (and a very good value for anyone) is that the standard you walk by is the standard you accept. 

3 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

You make their job harder when you mass report while hiding your intentions.

I guess I'm really worried that you think that there's some kind of mass goon conspiracy here. Completely real-talk, out-of-character or whatever else, but there's literally not. This isn't some elaborate troll here, and the hate coming from posters such as yourself is creating a chilling effect on people wanting to submit reports on what is clearly rule-breaking behaviour. It means that only the bravest goons are willing to make any form of reports now, and I think that that is a more pertinent problem.

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

2 minutes ago, Blutarch Mann said:

I appreciate the work you put in on the forums and you've done a great job handling forums moderation, but I think what dragon is trying to communicate is more a general frustration with the fact that community moderation standards across PNW vary from platform to platform. The forums and game, for example, have extremely good moderation standards that are upheld by you and the other moderators, and we can safely report things like people using offensive slurs and know that punishment will be handed down.

But in other parts of the community(ie, the discord), reporting the exact same violation turns into what some would describe as pulling teeth. I can report someone here for using the f-word and know they will be warned for it. But if I report someone in the discord for it, it's a coinflip between whether it gets handled or whether the moderator tells me that because it's not "repetitive toxicity", it's okay toxicity for someone to call me the f-word.

Disregarding all that, you do great work here, keep it up!

You made the post long to conceal you’re complaining only around half the times you report people, no action is taken if it doesn’t continue. When it’s better people don’t get a strike each time you ask. 

Thought you guys were done being Soviet.

[Nuggsferatu]

9 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

 

@Alex In case you hadn't known, and it's abundantly clear that you don't, the troll communities of SomethingAwful and others including 4chan do this kind of thing all the time, it's literally their raison d'etre. For example, the otherwise perfectly innocent ? was deliberately spammed alongside white supremacist/nazi crap specifically in order to cause the gesture to be associated with and ultimately irreparably damaged by its now indelible connotation, and they've actually managed to hoax enough of the more gullible media to the point that it actually IS a white power symbol. (Source: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/the-trump-internet-keeps-making-fake-hate-symbols-and) So, by having it as an emoticon option, you are personally completely guilty of hosting that hate symbol. I've seen this happen to the point that completely innocent consumer products were pulled from the market or recalled, and there's at least one webcomic that was edited to be white power propaganda, and the webcomic's author ended up having to quit drawing the comic because they were being harassed for things well beyond their control. The Pepe comic is another famous example of a perfectly innocent cartoon character being abused and deliberately spammed alongside degenerate fascist/racist crap in order to create a hate symbol where none existed.

The report spam is simply another form of that same behavior; they feign offense at literally anything specifically in order to attempt to bait a reaction from "moderator discretion" and thus change the norms of what's acceptable into something completely different.

You've gotta have one universal sized brain to conflate Nazis coopting imagery to further their own causes with goons reporting Nazi imagery in a browser game.

You're literally doing exactly what you're accusing other people of doing, not only attempting to weaponize moderation but also normalizing Nazi tactics by pretending that it's something that people do merely for "trolling"

I don't know if you're acting dumb to protect white nationalism or the dumbest centrist ever born but there's no other reason why you'd specifically post this.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Dracula with Nugs 4 Fangs

[dragonshardz]

1 hour ago, Chief Wiggum said:

Well, you should, since they are different people and different platforms. I can do nothing about Discord, so if you have any issues about it, report them accordingly.

The actions of one staff member reflects upon all of the members of P&W staff, regardless of their specific area of responsibility.

[Teaspoon]

9 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

The recent spam of reports for ridiculously minor infractions is absurd enough, especially when it is explicitly being done for the sole purpose of creating a toxic and hateful environment that accomodates nobody at all. At least please stop rewarding goons for spamming these reports, unless you really do want a game where the whole point is to make up offending meanings to the word "lollipop".

Your portrayal of legitimately reporting rule-breaking infractions (which, may I point out, Alex has specifically asked people to do) as "bad behavior" is completely and utterly farcical. The people engaging in bad behavior are the ones breaking the rules by trying to fly Nazi imagery under the radar and filling their bios with lurid pedophilic nonsense.

Furthermore, your treating of goons as both some sort of hivemind and as the only people reporting this behavior is pretty telling.

Why are you going so far out of your way to defend the indefensible, when if you yourself are not guilty of rules violations it doesn't have any affect on you whatsoever? I posit that it is in fact not at all about people reporting rules violations, but instead you angrily lashing out at a group that you hate for irrational and nonsensical reasons, and trying to paint us in as bad a light as you can by any means possible.

You're fooling nobody except for those already predisposed to doing the same thing.

[Noctis Anarch Caelum]

The truth about goons reporting has already been seen by most, both Coalitions don’t really like GOONS outside NPO much.

Wouldn’t surprise me if eventually NPO does attack you guys for hindering the war effort, lol.

[Teaspoon]

9 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

The truth about goons reporting has already been seen by most, both Coalitions don’t really like GOONS outside NPO much.

Wouldn’t surprise me if eventually NPO does attack you guys for hindering the war effort, lol.

I don't think I've seen a single post in this forum which is both so detached from reality *and* so irrelevant to the topic of the thread as this one right here.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Teaspoon

[dragonshardz]

28 minutes ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

The truth about goons reporting has already been seen by most, both Coalitions don’t really like GOONS outside NPO much.

Wouldn’t surprise me if eventually NPO does attack you guys for hindering the war effort, lol.

Are you high right now?

[Archibald]

The tl;dr is I like Wiggum. He does what he can. But the fact that it's okay for Akuryo to go on huge rants and directly insult mods, and what's his face above can go all "haha gays amirite" and nothing happens is hella frustrating.

GOONS aren't "weaponizing" anything. We're cleaning up the mess y'all have let marinate for the past 8 years. Don't like it? Fix your nation before we find it.

[Blutarch Mann]

2 hours ago, Noctis Anarch Caelum said:

You made the post long to conceal you’re complaining only around half the times you report people, no action is taken if it doesn’t continue. When it’s better people don’t get a strike each time you ask. 

Thought you guys were done being Soviet.

So, let me get this straight, your evidence for this claim is that I "made the post long"? 

I'll make it short for you then.

Moderation is inconsistent across community spaces despite using the same set of rules. It is not Wiggum's fault this is the case. It is Alex's.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Blutarch Mann